Are we there yet? Your second Travel Megathread (threadbans in OP}

Blut2 · 14-04-2021 10:52PM

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

Yeah, MEPs don't have that authority. Daly and Wallace are not making decisions on Ireland behalf.

It wasn't MEPs. It was representatives of the Irish government, acting on the authority of the state:

Today, EU ambassadors representing the 27 member states agreed a joint position on the pass

https://www.thejournal.ie/council-of-eu-5410140-Apr2021/

Though a majority of our MEPs - including all FF & FG ones - have also voted in favour of it previously too.

mmclo wrote: »

Again this is not how it works, a member state can have restrictions as long as they apply equally to all EU citizens and they have to notify the Commission, there might be disapproval and some ECJ case in 2 years time on free movement but nothing could be done to a country having a strict approach to quarantine etc in the here and now. I would prefer if it was otherwise but a read of the regulation supports this

Thats how it would work in normal times yes. ie the EU would not overrule Irish restrictions.

The EU here is however specifically bringing in a regulation that codifies restrictions across the entire block. With the approval of all member states. So it becomes the default, and supersedes any preceding national restrictions. As your own post in #4614 quotes the Irish government would have to effectively ask permission, with justification, for bringing in any additional restrictions that conflict with this.

14-04-2021 11:04PM

mmclo wrote: »

Proposal for a REGULATION OF THE EUROPEAN PARLIAMENT AND OF THE COUNCIL on a framework for the issuance, verification and acceptance of interoperable certificates on vaccination, testing and recovery to facilitate free movement during the COVID-19 pandemic (Digital Green Certificate)
COM/2021/130 final

https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX:52021PC0130

Right, and where in there does it guarantee your freedom of movement for holidays? Considering that's the part I referred to. That's exactly what I questioned. Here's where I said it:

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

It's not a regulation. They have said it themselves multiple times.

Ireland had no obligation to allow people on holidays. None..

In result to your statement:

mmclo wrote: »

It's not a JHA matter, they cite the relevant Treaty provisions in the preamble, it is a freedom of movement regulation

So again, what is it enshrined that Ireland cannot stop tourists from coming in to Ireland? No other debates, no changing. That's your claim, I have queried it, can you back it up?

Oh and thats a proposal, so not even agreed at eu level. And absolutely not forced on Ireland because the Irish MEPs said so which was another one of your claims so I would also like to see where the eu decided that MEPs are now controlling the country and not our ministers in actual government. Can you prove that claim?

Donald Trump wrote: »

For Niner. From AL terms and conditions

If MHQ is a requirement (hint, the clue is in the M part of the name) then they can easily quote paragraph 7.1.6 of their T's&C's.

No need to get the UN involved after all!

Right, guess I shall have to quote myself for you again:

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

They can incorporate it into their terms and conditions and some have but ultimately, law enforcement should be handled by professionals.

And

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

Saab is perfectly happy for Ryanair staff to obtain law enforcement powers just like that and to deny Irish residents the ability to return to where they live.

And

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

Nope, because it's clearly in their terms and conditions.

You do understand the difference between a company not allowing someone to fly within their terms and conditions and enforcing the law, yes?

And

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

Ryanair can demand a pcr test if they want. No one is disputing that. That is not the same as demanding that they now enforce Irish law.

And

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

Again, within terms and conditions and not for us citizens. Mary also doesn't issue a fine and arrest you.

So again, I'm well aware that companies can refuse passengers within their terms and conditions IF THEY SO DESIRE because it was the VERY FIRST THING I SAID ON THE SUBJECT and have started it in every single post since but they do not and should not be given law enforcement powers which is what saab appears to desire.

Should I say it again?

Corholio · 14-04-2021 11:11PM

Feria40 wrote: »

For anyone interested in whats in the works re the proposed EU Digital Green Cert

https://www.thejournal.ie/council-of-eu-5410140-Apr2021/?utm_source=twitter_short

Per same:

"If approved by the European Parliament, the Irish Government would be obliged to issue Digital Green Certificates when they are requested by citizens for international travel"

Interesting way they word it and especially looking at Thomas Byrne's tweet about 'the govt here have yet to decide their use but will have to issue them when requested when it's enacted'

The 'their use' seems to be some caveat the government can add to them, limiting them. Hopefully it's not over restrictive if they do.

14-04-2021 11:18PM

Corholio wrote: »

Interesting way they word it and especially looking at Thomas Byrne's tweet about 'the govt here have yet to decide their use but will have to issue them when requested when it's enacted'

The 'their use' seems to be some caveat the government can add to them, limiting them. Hopefully it's not over restrictive if they do.

Hopefully it just means we are lagging behind the rest of the eu in implementing a system as usual but still will.

15-04-2021 12:20AM

Does anyone have any experience of crossing borders on the Continent during covid via ground public transport I.e. rail and bus?

I'm thinking of going to Europe for 2 or 3 weeks in June. Greece probably. However, if there are no checks on international buses/trains for PCR certs I'd probably do an inter-railing trip - I'm 30 so won't be vaccinated by then. I don't mind paying for 2 PCR tests for Greece but obviously couldn't justify getting them for multiple countries!!

Happydays2020 · 15-04-2021 06:20AM

Belgium were pressured to lift restrictions and see what happens.

https://twitter.com/dreynders/status/1382354605401604097?s=21

Happydays2020 · 15-04-2021 06:24AM

Good news also from Ursula -

https://twitter.com/vonderleyen/status/1382344485686931461?s=21

a_squirrelman · 15-04-2021 06:33AM

Donnie90 wrote: »

Does anyone have any experience of crossing borders on the Continent during covid via ground public transport I.e. rail and bus?

I'm thinking of going to Europe for 2 or 3 weeks in June. Greece probably. However, if there are no checks on international buses/trains for PCR certs I'd probably do an inter-railing trip - I'm 30 so won't be vaccinated by then. I don't mind paying for 2 PCR tests for Greece but obviously couldn't justify getting them for multiple countries!!

This really depends on the country, the rules they have in place and if they are bothering to check. I know that for Austria, Slovakia and Hungary there have been checks on trains and buses when PCRs were needed but they were totally random and rare. Some countries have now binned the PCR requirement but self isolation is still required or can be avoided with AG or PCR tests.
You would really have to check each countries individual rules.

Golfman64 · 15-04-2021 06:48AM

Corholio wrote: »

Interesting way they word it and especially looking at Thomas Byrne's tweet about 'the govt here have yet to decide their use but will have to issue them when requested when it's enacted'

The 'their use' seems to be some caveat the government can add to them, limiting them. Hopefully it's not over restrictive if they do.

I think Byrne is referring to their use in a domestic context for the likes of larger gatherings. The Irish government themselves have 6 weeks to enact this for intra-European quarantine and restriction free travel for all member states once it has been signed off by the EU. We do not have a choice. If any restrictions are placed on people leaving or returning to Ireland with another EU member state then the Irish government would be required to submit documentation/evidence and justification for this and the EU would decide whether to allow it. But the default position is open borders with all EU member states.

Great to see and thankfully someone finally saving us from ourselves!

yer man! · 15-04-2021 07:07AM

Donnie90 wrote: »

Does anyone have any experience of crossing borders on the Continent during covid via ground public transport I.e. rail and bus?

I'm thinking of going to Europe for 2 or 3 weeks in June. Greece probably. However, if there are no checks on international buses/trains for PCR certs I'd probably do an inter-railing trip - I'm 30 so won't be vaccinated by then. I don't mind paying for 2 PCR tests for Greece but obviously couldn't justify getting them for multiple countries!!

For trains where I am, crossing a border requires a negative PCR test in order to board.

For driving, it varies for each country but generally there are no road blocks but there are spot checks for a negative PCR test. I drove to Germany a few months ago and there was no check at all but hotels did say you cannot check in without proof of negative test.

Feria40 · 15-04-2021 07:13AM

Golfman64 wrote: »

I think Byrne is referring to their use in a domestic context for the likes of larger gatherings. The Irish government themselves have 6 weeks to enact this for intra-European quarantine and restriction free travel for all member states once it has been signed off by the EU. We do not have a choice. If any restrictions are placed on people leaving or returning to Ireland with another EU member state then the Irish government would be required to submit documentation/evidence and justification for this and the EU would decide whether to allow it. But the default position is open borders with all EU member states.

Great to see and thankfully someone finally saving us from ourselves!

Staines and McDonkey with a media blitz in 3, 2, 1....

Ray Donovan · 15-04-2021 07:30AM

Golfman64 wrote: »

I think Byrne is referring to their use in a domestic context for the likes of larger gatherings. The Irish government themselves have 6 weeks to enact this for intra-European quarantine and restriction free travel for all member states once it has been signed off by the EU. We do not have a choice. If any restrictions are placed on people leaving or returning to Ireland with another EU member state then the Irish government would be required to submit documentation/evidence and justification for this and the EU would decide whether to allow it. But the default position is open borders with all EU member states.

Great to see and thankfully someone finally saving us from ourselves!

Probably be mid July before its up & running here knowing our government’s ineptitude and cynicism towards travel but realistically if the €2,000 travel fine is allowed to expire in mid June it’s open season for holidays. I emailed both the Departments of Health and Foreign Affairs to check the date of the sunset clause on that so will report back if they answer my query.

Dr. Em · 15-04-2021 07:44AM

To be honest, if Ryanair and Aerlingus are not requiring to see PCR results prior to boarding, it smacks of gross incompetence. KLM and Lufthansa have been requiring to see certs since January and even have a country requirement checker function in their websites.

jellies · 15-04-2021 08:01AM

Dr. Em wrote: »

To be honest, if Ryanair and Aerlingus are not requiring to see PCR results prior to boarding, it smacks of gross incompetence. KLM and Lufthansa have been requiring to see certs since January and even have a country requirement checker function in their websites.

"The Irish Government requires all persons travelling to Ireland to provide a negative result of a PCR test taken within 72 hours prior to arrival in Ireland, Aer Lingus will require all customers to present evidence (e.g. email, text of document) of a negative PCR test result - that can subsequently be verified by Border Control staff in Ireland - prior to boarding. "

From the Aer Lingus website. Really not hard to find.

SusanC10 · 15-04-2021 08:02AM

DP

SusanC10 · 15-04-2021 08:03AM

“The European Union is developing a green cert and we could see, within months, people being able to travel again freely within the European Union,” said Tánaiste Leo Varadkar.
However Mr Varadkar also said: “Travel in the future will be different, I’m absolutely sure of that.”

RTE on Twitter

Feria40 · 15-04-2021 08:19AM

SusanC10 wrote: »

“The European Union is developing a green cert and we could see, within months, people being able to travel again freely within the European Union,” said Tánaiste Leo Varadkar.
However Mr Varadkar also said: “Travel in the future will be different, I’m absolutely sure of that.”

RTE on Twitter

Different can mean PcR tests, it could mean masks etc. I wouldn't be overly concerned

Dr. Em · 15-04-2021 08:23AM

jellies wrote: »

"The Irish Government requires all persons travelling to Ireland to provide a negative result of a PCR test taken within 72 hours prior to arrival in Ireland, Aer Lingus will require all customers to present evidence (e.g. email, text of document) of a negative PCR test result - that can subsequently be verified by Border Control staff in Ireland - prior to boarding. "

From the Aer Lingus website. Really not hard to find.

You misunderstand. The question is not if they SAY they are checking, but if they are actually turning away those who do not have a negative PCR test. If people are landing in the quarantine hotels because they don't have a negative test, which airline is allowing them to board?

IQO · 15-04-2021 08:29AM

Dr. Em wrote: »

To be honest, if Ryanair and Aerlingus are not requiring to see PCR results prior to boarding, it smacks of gross incompetence. KLM and Lufthansa have been requiring to see certs since January and even have a country requirement checker function in their websites.

Not true, I flew MAD-DUB recently on Ryanair and the negative PCR test validity was checked twice before entering the plane.

Ryanair even added an option in their mobile app to upload your PCR certificate when checking in online.

KLM are not allowing online check in from Dublin, and want everyone to go to their desk in the departure hall for a manual check of everyone's PCR result. As a result the long queue there is fairly unnecessary for people with only hand-luggage.

Dr. Em wrote: »

You misunderstand. The question is not if they SAY they are checking, but if they are actually turning away those who do not have a negative PCR test. If people are landing in the quarantine hotels because they don't have a negative test, which airline is allowing them to board?

There are many flaws with the MHQ requirements, it's already easy to circumvent.. but I can't see airlines making a thorough background check for every passenger boarding their planes. How would you know which countries were entered (or even transited in) during the last 14 days? It's impossible for an airport agent to check every passport page for each passenger.. to see if there is a stamp of Eswatini or Wallis and Futuna dated in the last 2 weeks hiding somewhere.

What I've read though is that some airlines have let people through with only a rapid test, instead of a PCR result.. that needs to be checked. But as there is no general format or uniform system, and every lab in the world creates their own PCR result documents, it's hard for the airport agents to verify each document carefully - when planes still have a 35 minute turnaround time.

From your example of KLM: my PCR (and Rapid Test for AMS) was checked twice in Dublin, but only from a PDF on my phone. Not that I would do it, but if someone wants to it's very easy to copy the document and change the date/time, and use again. I doubt this will be noticed.

titan18 · 15-04-2021 08:42AM

Feria40 wrote: »

Different can mean PcR tests, it could mean masks etc. I wouldn't be overly concerned

You'd bloody hope when everyone is vaccinated, wouldn't be a need to get a PCR test when you travel.

josip · 15-04-2021 08:50AM

Donnie90 wrote: »

Does anyone have any experience of crossing borders on the Continent during covid via ground public transport I.e. rail and bus?

I'm thinking of going to Europe for 2 or 3 weeks in June. Greece probably. However, if there are no checks on international buses/trains for PCR certs I'd probably do an inter-railing trip - I'm 30 so won't be vaccinated by then. I don't mind paying for 2 PCR tests for Greece but obviously couldn't justify getting them for multiple countries!!

Can't offer much help with your specifics I'm afraid.
It was 1996 when I Interrailed and Jugoslavia going tits up was our limiting factor at the time, not Covid

Nearly did it last summer by car, but in the end, the individual border logistics and risk to elderly relatives on the far end meant we cancelled.
Did it for many years before and will be going again this July.

Would you Interrail from Holyhead?
Even if there aren't any Covid border checks within the Schengen, you're going to get hit with multiple border crossings once you reach the Balkans regardless of which route you choose. PCR tests for non-nationals in those countries can be €160.

Dr. Em · 15-04-2021 08:50AM

IQO wrote: »

Not true, I flew MAD-DUB recently on Ryanair and the negative PCR test validity was checked twice before entering the plane.

Ryanair even added an option in their mobile app to upload your PCR certificate when checking in online.

KLM are not allowing online check in from Dublin, and want everyone to go to their desk in the departure hall for a manual check of everyone's PCR result. As a result the long queue there is fairly unnecessary for people with only hand-luggage.

There are many flaws with the MHQ requirements, it's already easy to circumvent.. but I can't see airlines making a thorough background check for every passenger boarding their planes. How would you know which countries were entered (or even transited in) during the last 14 days? It's impossible for an airport agent to check every passport page for each passenger.. to see if there is a stamp of Eswatini or Wallis and Futuna dated in the last 2 weeks hiding somewhere.

What I've read though is that some airlines have let people through with only a rapid test, instead of a PCR result.. that needs to be checked. But as there is no general format or uniform system, and every lab in the world creates their own PCR result documents, it's hard for the airport agents to verify each document carefully - when planes still have a 35 minute turnaround time.

From your example of KLM: my PCR (and Rapid Test for AMS) was checked twice in Dublin, but only from a PDF on my phone. Not that I would do it, but if someone wants to it's very easy to copy the document and change the date/time, and use again. I doubt this will be noticed.

If you had changed the date one your PCR test, I doubt immigration would have caught it either, which still leaves the question: which airline is allowing travellers to board without a negative PCR test? The rapid test/PCR test confusion goes some way to explaining it, but every test I have had so far (7 to date) has clearly stated the type of test.

jellies · 15-04-2021 08:57AM

Dr. Em wrote: »

You misunderstand. The question is not if they SAY they are checking, but if they are actually turning away those who do not have a negative PCR test. If people are landing in the quarantine hotels because they don't have a negative test, which airline is allowing them to board?

No idea, that was the only airline I checked. But I would assume that if that is what they are saying then they are actually doing it. It would just become part of the boarding process.

Dr. Em · 15-04-2021 09:09AM

jellies wrote: »

No idea, that was the only airline I checked. But I would assume that if that is what they are saying then they are actually doing it. It would just become part of the boarding process.

My post was really prompted by the debate earlier on the thread about travellers showing up without a negative PCR test. Having had personal experience with KLM's enforcement policies where they were happily turning away approx 1 out of 4 travellers, I can say that either the government or the airlines have messed up somewhere if they are not similarly requiring negative PCR tests prior to boarding. As you said, it should be routine. I don't have personal experience with Ryanair or Aerlingus during the pandemic, hence the 'if' in my comment.

normanoffside · 15-04-2021 09:17AM

Dr. Em wrote: »

My post was really prompted by the debate earlier on the thread about travellers showing up without a negative PCR test. Having had personal experience with KLM's enforcement policies where they were happily turning away approx 1 out of 4 travellers, I can say that either the government or the airlines have messed up somewhere if they are not similarly requiring negative PCR tests prior to boarding. As you said, it should be routine. I don't have personal experience with Ryanair or Aerlingus during the pandemic, hence the 'if' in my comment.

Airlines are checking for PCR tests before boarding but mistakes can be made (such as the example of the person showing up with an Antigen test). They’d be few and far between but mistakes happen.

I’m not sure that when SD was talking about walk-ins he was referring to these cases anyway.

Feria40 · 15-04-2021 09:17AM

titan18 wrote: »

You'd bloody hope when everyone is vaccinated, wouldn't be a need to get a PCR test when you travel.

The Green Cert as proposed is vaccine OR negative PCR test in order to travel.

While vaccine take up is likely to be pretty high here, the same cannot be said of countries such as France. Hence the option for a negative PCR test instead.

titan18 · 15-04-2021 09:19AM

Feria40 wrote: »

The Green Cert as proposed is vaccine OR negative PCR test in order to travel.

While vaccine take up is likely to be pretty high here, the same cannot be said of countries such as France. Hence the option for a negative PCR test instead.

Ya, that would be fine for me. I'd just be hoping you have proof of vaccination, it's you don't need a test. Ideally no masks too but I reckon that'll last longer unfortunately.

Dr. Em · 15-04-2021 09:21AM

Feria40 wrote: »

The Green Cert as proposed is vaccine OR negative PCR test in order to travel.

While vaccine take up is likely to be pretty high here, the same cannot be said of countries such as France. Hence the option for a negative PCR test instead.

Also some groups might not have the vaccine until next year or beyond - countries with slower rollouts, for example. Even here younger children are exempt from PCR testing, but teenagers might be required to get a PCR test for quite some time until a vaccine is approved for them, as well as the very few people who are medically advised not to get a vaccine.

Feria40 · 15-04-2021 09:23AM

Dr. Em wrote: »

Teenagers might be required to get a PCR test for quite some time until a vaccine is approved for them, as well as the very few people who are medically advised not to get a vaccine.

I wonder will children and teens require PCR, might there be a cut off point at a certain age?

I know the cost of PCR can be prohibitive for a family but overall I still think things are moving in the right direction

josip · 15-04-2021 09:27AM

Dr. Em wrote: »

Also some groups might not have the vaccine until next year or beyond - countries with slower rollouts, for example. Even here younger children are exempt from PCR testing, but teenagers might be required to get a PCR test for quite some time until a vaccine is approved for them, as well as the very few people who are medically advised not to get a vaccine.

Feria40 wrote: »

I wonder will children and teens require PCR, might there be a cut off point at a certain age?

I know the cost of PCR can be prohibitive for a family but overall I still think things are moving in the right direction

Some European countries have exempted under 12s for example when traveling with a PCR-negative adult.
I don't know what the situation is when the adult is fully vaccinated and has a Green Cert

Are we there yet? Your second Travel Megathread (threadbans in OP}

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