2021 Irish Property Market chat - mod warnings post 1

hometruths · 13-04-2021 06:31PM

Cyrus wrote: »

Most of it moved a few years back didn’t it ?

I had a search on this last time you mentioned it and concluded that very little IP moved back to the US or wherever. Where did you hear/read that most of the multinational IP was repatriated?

fliball123 · 13-04-2021 06:40PM

PropQueries wrote: »

I wonder how much our “GDP” will fall by if it’s no longer tax advantageous for the multinationals to hold their IP, intangibles etc. in Ireland?

I wonder how much our GDP will grow by when the Corona smoke clears and the penny drops that we are now the only native English speaking country in the EU after Brexit, your right so many intangibles, GDP is as likely to go up as it is down in the future. Only you and Nostradamus know the truth do

Cyrus · 13-04-2021 06:47PM

schmittel wrote: »

I had a search on this last time you mentioned it and concluded that very little IP moved back to the US or wherever. Where did you hear/read that most of the multinational IP was repatriated?

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.irishtimes.com/business/technology/google-to-end-use-of-double-irish-as-tax-loophole-set-to-close-1.4128174%3fmode=amp

Ireland bowed to international pressure five years ago and agreed to close the scheme, which was popular with technology and pharmaceutical businesses, but companies that already used it were given until the end of 2020 to end the practice.

Most companies acted well ahead of that deadline, replacing their double Irish arrangements with new structures that have the same benefits, said Ed Kleinbard, a tax law professor at the University of Southern California, Los Angeles. Google’s move was unusual in that it suggested the company had acted later than others, he added.

Hubertj · 13-04-2021 06:48PM

MacronvFrugals wrote: »

Lots of people like to say "but but but the council" conveniently leaving aside the fact FG heavily centralized lots of traditional local authority powers

As one of DIT's lecturers in economics, local development and planning described -

https://www.dublininquirer.com/2018/12/19/the-central-government-is-treating-councils-shamefully

I don’t think I the competence or inclination to act is present whether it is at local level or centralised. You can have the best plans in the world and the biggest budget you want but if those in charge of execution are not up to the task....

mcsean2163 · 13-04-2021 08:01PM

Thanks for the the twitter tip, rang the agent and discovered house is already sale agreed. It's been on the market since September!#@!

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/number-of-homes-for-sale-now-at-lowest-level-in-over-a-decade-1.4486679?mode=amp

Apparently there were 15,500 second hand homes in sale in January?

I've been reading that the property situation has improved but when I do a search for all Ireland on myhome, I get 11,471 results. Does anyone know what I'm doing wrong?

wassie · 13-04-2021 08:08PM

Daft throws up a similar result - 12,078 actual dwellings, where as if you include sites it jumps to 15,288.

DataDude · 13-04-2021 08:13PM

mcsean2163 wrote: »

Thanks for the the twitter tip, rang the agent and discovered house is already sale agreed. It's been on the market since September!#@!

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/number-of-homes-for-sale-now-at-lowest-level-in-over-a-decade-1.4486679?mode=amp

Apparently there were 15,500 second hand homes in sale in January?

I've been reading that the property situation has improved but when I do a search for all Ireland on myhome, I get 11,471 results. Does anyone know what I'm doing wrong?

Is the house you are referring to here the one in Silchester? I could have sworn that was advertised 3 weeks ago. Taken down. Then put up again yesterday? Strange if already sale agreed..

Timing belt · 13-04-2021 08:17PM

PropQueries wrote: »

If debt doesn’t matter, why don’t the eastern EU members of the EU borrow right up to our debt per capita level and invest in infrastructure etc. and make themselves the most advanced countries on the planet in the 21st century?

They obviously have the leeway given their current debt levels compared to ours.

My thinking is that they don’t buy into the current narrative that this permanent deficit spending can last much longer IMO.

The Eastern European countries are scared of inflation making them uncompetitive. It’s not that long ago they had significant inflation which crippled their economies. Who knows maybe they are right only time will tell..we will hear a lot about inflation as they will compare this year to last year when there was deflation. All eyes will be on USA and if the rest of the world accepts its fiscal spending and doesn’t loose confidence in the Dollar.

hometruths · 13-04-2021 08:22PM

Cyrus wrote: »

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.irishtimes.com/business/technology/google-to-end-use-of-double-irish-as-tax-loophole-set-to-close-1.4128174%3fmode=amp

Did you actually read the whole article? I was asking specifically about intellectual property.

The "Double Irish" which was closed did not actually require the IP to be held in an Irish company. As the article confirms Google held their IP in Bermuda at the time.

The article also says:

Most companies acted well ahead of that deadline, replacing their double Irish arrangements with new structures that have the same benefits..

What are those new structures?

According to a report from the IMF last year, one popular new avoidance arrangement involved companies injecting intellectual property (IP) into new subsidiaries in Ireland, known as IP onshoring.

Rather than most of the MNC IP having been removed from Ireland 5 years ago, as you claim, we have seen an increase in IP being held here. Seamus Coffey explained why:

Thus, the taxable income of the Irish operating company will move from being reduced by “renting” the IP and making annual royalty payments for the use of the IP to being reduced by “buying” the IP and claiming capital allowances each year based on the cost of acquiring and maintaining the IP.

Any good tax haven worth the name has more than one scheme. Whilst the "Double Irish" has been closed, the "Green Jersey" is alive and well and thus we have more IP held in Ireland now than we did 5 years ago.

mcsean2163 · 13-04-2021 08:24PM

DataDude wrote: »

Is the house you are referring to here the one in Silchester? I could have sworn that was advertised 3 weeks ago. Taken down. Then put up again yesterday? Strange if already sale agreed..

No, another one in the locale, slightly more pricey, would have left us very stretched but wife was saying dream home. Anyway, not to be.

Cal4567 · 13-04-2021 08:42PM

Hubertj wrote: »

I don’t think I the competence or inclination to act is present whether it is at local level or centralised. You can have the best plans in the world and the biggest budget you want but if those in charge of execution are not up to the task....

Agree 100%. It is easy for us to criticize individuals we don't actually know but this is not something that has just surfaced over night. I may be criticized for such a sweeping statement but I would be concerned with the type of individual I see in significant roles in Councils. The average standard of councillor is also poor.

On reflection I am really not that surprised with those who work in the centralised system we have that they want to retain/take back control.

There has always been tension between central government and local councils. It has added to the dysfunction. Now more evident than ever.

13-04-2021 09:50PM

The 2008 mess cost country around 44 billions
We are near this digits already
That how much Covid cost
Troika EMF austerity that what happened after.

Cyrus · 13-04-2021 10:12PM

schmittel wrote: »

Did you actually read the whole article? I was asking specifically about intellectual property.

The "Double Irish" which was closed did not actually require the IP to be held in an Irish company. As the article confirms Google held their IP in Bermuda at the time.

The article also says:

What are those new structures?

Rather than most of the MNC IP having been removed from Ireland 5 years ago, as you claim, we have seen an increase in IP being held here. Seamus Coffey explained why:

Any good tax haven worth the name has more than one scheme. Whilst the "Double Irish" has been closed, the "Green Jersey" is alive and well and thus we have more IP held in Ireland now than we did 5 years ago.

Yes but given your innate understanding of the tax code you’ll understand why the reason why google holding the ip in Bermuda was significant in the context of our tax regime and why them moving it from Bermuda back onshore is significant.

Facebook also onshored their IP

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/facebook-ip-move-highlights-irish-corporation-tax-risks-1.4446557%3fmode=amp

Where are you seeing IP levels have increased ?

hometruths · 13-04-2021 10:27PM

Cyrus wrote: »

Yes but given your innate understanding of the tax code you’ll understand why the reason why google holding the ip in Bermuda was significant in the context of our tax regime and why them moving it from Bermuda back onshore is significant.

I don't need an innate understanding of the tax code to understand that Google moving IP from Bermuda to the US is not a good example to give as an example of IP moving out of Ireland.

hometruths · 13-04-2021 11:06PM

Cyrus wrote: »

Facebook also onshored their IP

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/facebook-ip-move-highlights-irish-corporation-tax-risks-1.4446557%3fmode=amp

According to Coffey (and the TAXE Committee of the European Parliament) that IP was actually in the Cayman Islands, not Ireland. Articles suggesting otherwise look like lazy journalism.

Cyrus wrote: »

Where are you seeing IP levels have increased ?

The figures for capital allowances claimed against intangible assets in breakdown of corporation tax returns. They ballooned in 2015, and have continued to rise. 99% of this is claimed by MNCs.

Credit where it is due. It's actually a very clever scheme from our governments point of view.

PropQueries · 13-04-2021 11:08PM

schmittel wrote: »

I don't need an innate understanding of the tax code to understand that Google moving IP from Bermuda to the US is not a good example to give as an example of IP moving out of Ireland.

I think facebooks example from the last couple of months will clarify the issue with the Irish Times reporting three months ago:

“A move by Facebook to repatriate most of its intellectual property from the Republic back to the United States underscores risks to the State’s multinational-fuelled corporation tax haul as global tax-reform efforts move up a gear in 2021, according to economists.”

It also says that 77% of all corporation tax receipts came from multinationals in 2019 so I don’t see how the media are reporting that we will only lose €2 billion from these tax reforms.

I really don’t see where the funds will come from for the state to continue buying, leasing etc. homes past July this year IMO

Link to Irish Times article here: https://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/facebook-ip-move-highlights-irish-corporation-tax-risks-1.4446557

Edit: apologies, the article was already linked and both using it to back up opposing viewpoints

awec · 13-04-2021 11:18PM

PropQueries wrote: »

I think facebooks example from the last couple of months will clarify the issue with the Irish Times reporting three months ago:

“A move by Facebook to repatriate most of its intellectual property from the Republic back to the United States underscores risks to the State’s multinational-fuelled corporation tax haul as global tax-reform efforts move up a gear in 2021, according to economists.”

It also says that 77% of all corporation tax receipts came from multinationals in 2019 so I don’t see how the media are reporting that we will only lose €2 billion from these tax reforms.

I really don’t see where the funds will come from for the state to continue buying, leasing etc. homes past July this year IMO

Link to Irish Times article here: https://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/facebook-ip-move-highlights-irish-corporation-tax-risks-1.4446557

Edit: apologies, the article was already linked and both using it to back up opposing viewpoints

My guess is unlike yourself the media nor the government believe that this tax reform is going to see every single multinational job instantly head to eastern europe and our MNC corp tax intake immediately drop to zero.

Cyrus · 13-04-2021 11:54PM

schmittel wrote: »

I don't need an innate understanding of the tax code to understand that Google moving IP from Bermuda to the US is not a good example to give as an example of IP moving out of Ireland.

On the face of it it’s not , but the underlying structure much like the Facebook example would suggest otherwise.

hometruths · 14-04-2021 12:07AM

Cyrus wrote: »

On the face of it it’s not , but the underlying structure much like the Facebook example would suggest otherwise.

Ok well, no interest in a tit for tat on the face of it and suggesting otherwise, i’ll just answer your original question more directly:

Cyrus wrote: »

Most of it moved a few years back didn’t it ?

No, you’ve claimed this a few times and you are wrong.

Cyrus · 14-04-2021 12:15AM

schmittel wrote: »

Ok well, no interest in a tit for tat on the face of it and suggesting otherwise, i’ll just answer your original question more directly:

No, you’ve claimed this a few times and you are wrong.

I’ll concede my statement that most of it moved was inaccurate.

Geuze · 14-04-2021 02:39AM

schmittel wrote: »

According to Coffey (and the TAXE Committee of the European Parliament) that IP was actually in the Cayman Islands, not Ireland. Articles suggesting otherwise look like lazy journalism.

Coffey is more informed than most journalists.

http://economic-incentives.blogspot.com/

Hubertj · 14-04-2021 07:50AM

Tenant promises to pay compensation after removing rafters from house
via The Irish Times
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/tenant-promises-to-pay-compensation-after-removing-rafters-from-house-1.4536528

This is mad stuff altogether. Homelessness is too good for some people. I suppose it falls to the state to house them?

Wanderer78 · 14-04-2021 07:52AM

Hubertj wrote:

This is mad stuff altogether. Homelessness is too good for some people. I suppose it falls to the state to house them?

Yup, our housing situation is so serious, this is what some will do to try garantee this critical need

cruizer101 · 14-04-2021 08:22AM

Hubertj wrote: »

Tenant promises to pay compensation after removing rafters from house

He built up rental debts of 9,000 and did 16,000 worth of damage to the house :eek:
No wonder landlords are leaving the market, pr**ks like him giving a bad name to good tenants.

Now his name is in the paper so no one else will want to rent to him so likely the state is going to have to house him.

Villa05 · 14-04-2021 08:45AM

Hubertj wrote:

Tenant promises to pay compensation after removing rafters from house via The Irish Times

Did you see the Examiner
Landlord evicts tennant and takes over tennants cannibis grow house he had set up in the property

Hubertj · 14-04-2021 08:49AM

Villa05 wrote: »

Did you see the Examiner
Landlord evicts tennant and takes over tennants cannibis grow house he had set up in the property

It’s behind paywall so I couldn’t read entire article. Did landlord evict because of grow houses?

Villa05 · 14-04-2021 09:51AM

Hubertj wrote:

Itâ€™s behind paywall so I couldnâ€™t read entire article. Did landlord evict because of grow houses?

Yes, it was in a shipping container on the property. Ll took over that business

PropQueries · 14-04-2021 10:07AM

A FF TD has an opinion piece in the Sunday Business Post (free to read) where he says:

"Ireland is becoming uncompetitive and is losing business to other countries as a direct consequence of our lack of housing and key infrastructure."

In my mind, this is just another signal that they're trying to get the public used to the idea of increased taxes in the near future. It's even more interesting in that he's the youngest member of the Dail and his FF colleague is in charge of housing. I'm assuming all such articles must be pre-approved by HQ, so they must have some plan to reduce house prices in the very near future IMO

Link to Business Post article (free to read) here: https://www.businesspost.ie/tax/james-oconnor-ireland-could-turn-a-higher-rate-of-corporate-tax-into-a-win-win-723c66b0

fliball123 · 14-04-2021 10:10AM

PropQueries wrote: »

A FF TD has an opinion piece in the Sunday Business Post (free to read) where he says:

"Ireland is becoming uncompetitive and is losing business to other countries as a direct consequence of our lack of housing and key infrastructure."

In my mind, this is just another signal that they're trying to get the public used to the idea of increased taxes in the near future. It's even more interesting in that he's the youngest member of the Dail and his FF colleague is in charge of housing. I'm assuming all such articles must be pre-approved by HQ, so they must have some plan to reduce house prices in the very near future IMO

Link to Business Post article (free to read) here: https://www.businesspost.ie/tax/james-oconnor-ireland-could-turn-a-higher-rate-of-corporate-tax-into-a-win-win-723c66b0

Where does it say anything about raising taxes??? Will you stop making things up.

Its like me putting the below link up on here and saying we are going to be flooded with FDI so there will be absolutely no issues for Ireland financially going forward. Your taking one opinion by one random person that does not even mention taxes and use it to extrapolate that we are in for an increase in taxes to fund housing. Talk about manipulating the facts to suit your own agenda.

https://www.rte.ie/news/business/2021/0314/1203988-stripe-to-create-1-000-new-jobs-in-dublin/

Cyrus · 14-04-2021 10:14AM

PropQueries wrote: »

A FF TD has an opinion piece in the Sunday Business Post (free to read) where he says:

"Ireland is becoming uncompetitive and is losing business to other countries as a direct consequence of our lack of housing and key infrastructure."

In my mind, this is just another signal that they're trying to get the public used to the idea of increased taxes in the near future. It's even more interesting in that he's the youngest member of the Dail and his FF colleague is in charge of housing. I'm assuming all such articles must be pre-approved by HQ, so they must have some plan to reduce house prices in the very near future IMO

Link to Business Post article (free to read) here: https://www.businesspost.ie/tax/james-oconnor-ireland-could-turn-a-higher-rate-of-corporate-tax-into-a-win-win-723c66b0

we are also uncompetitive as our marginal rates of tax are too high, maybe it is a signal for decreasing taxes?

2021 Irish Property Market chat - *mod warnings post 1*

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2021 Irish Property Market chat - mod warnings post 1