Are we there yet? Your second Travel Megathread (threadbans in OP}

Donald Trump · 12-04-2021 10:33PM

josip wrote: »

May not put paid to it, but confirms the suspicion that if Ireland are to partake in it, NPHET will have to be dragged into it kicking and screaming.
They'll probably try to drag their heels long enough that by the time they are forced to join, it will be too late.
It's not a surprise that all the Med countries are on it and that the Germans are on it too, for them a summer sun holiday is an inalienable right.
But it's incredible to think that so many EU countries, including Ireland, don't want their citizens to enjoy the summer.

NPHET don't make any decisions. There would be no dragging. They advise. If you are hearing about NPHET in relation to decisions, it is the politicians who are taking unpopular decisions and trying to blame someone else.

Donald Trump · 12-04-2021 10:40PM

normanoffside wrote: »

Another case before the high court

https://twitter.com/rtenews/status/1381724001014325255

Free the boob-bai two!

12-04-2021 10:48PM

Donald Trump wrote: »

NPHET don't make any decisions. There would be no dragging. They advise.

The problem is, they don't advise in private, as they should.

If the Government choose not to accept their "advice", they begin advising through the medium of the Late Late Show and Covid Byrne on RTÉ Radio One.

NPHET have repeatedly sought to undermine the legitimate Government of this State. It should have been stood down in May, and a National Covid Management Team appointed, a condition of serving on which should have been a commitment not to give interviews to the media.

Donald Trump · 12-04-2021 10:59PM

b0nk1e wrote: »

The problem is, they don't advise in private, as they should.

If the Government choose not to accept their "advice", they begin advising through the medium of the Late Late Show and Covid Byrne on RTÉ Radio One.

NPHET have repeatedly sought to undermine the legitimate Government of this State. It should have been stood down in May, and a National Covid Management Team appointed, a condition of serving on which should have been a commitment not to give interviews to the media.

It is a public health emergency. The clue is in the name - National Public Health Emergency Team. They are there to provide guidance and keep the public updated too, as well as advising the government. You want them to be hidden and the politicians to be delivering the message? Who do you want coming on the telly to give you the updates - Danny Healy-Rae? I want the medical experts to be delivering the news about the pandemic. The government can deliver the news about their political decisions.

You have other posters going mental on another thread because they can't find out the names of some travel advisory group. And you're complaining that we know who NPHET are.

josip · 12-04-2021 11:18PM

Donald Trump wrote: »

You have other posters going mental on another thread because they can't find out the names of some travel advisory group. And you're complaining that we know who NPHET are.

Again incorrect.
That was not the reason that poster complained about NPHET.

Donald Trump · 12-04-2021 11:55PM

josip wrote: »

Again incorrect.
That was not the reason that poster complained about NPHET.

Well the poster can speak for themselves. But they did say this:

It should have been stood down in May, and a National Covid Management Team appointed, a condition of serving on which should have been a commitment not to give interviews to the media

So you think maybe that they want to know exactly who is on the team, just not know who is saying what or what the team is telling the government?

Or at least, you would be depending on the government to pass on accurately what they are saying?

At the minute, you probably don't know all the people who are on NPHET. At least off the top of your head. There are 30 or 40 people on it. You would know the ones rolled out to give press conferences and answer questions - which is what the poster is complaining about.

If they don't give those, then there is no opportunity to question them at all. Which seems to be a bit of a strange request from anyone who appears to dislike them.

Or do you think it is the posters assertion/implication that they don't give advice "in private"? When it is well known that they meet government ministers to brief them. So we know that that bit is wrong anyway. (the "private" bit)

TobyHolmes · 13-04-2021 12:43AM

Please justify now for me please how the hell the french team can fly in for a match while the irish people's businesses and livelihoods remain closed, mental health deteriorating, residents restricted to a 5km radius for MONTHS and now subjected to mandatory quarantine when flying in - but because you want to play some sports its OK for the government to grant an exemption.

F UUUUU - how is this right and how is this just.

this country is backwards

dalyboy · 13-04-2021 01:01AM

TobyHolmes wrote: »

Please justify now for me please how the hell the french team can fly in for a match while the irish people's businesses and livelihoods remain closed, mental health deteriorating, residents restricted to a 5km radius for MONTHS and now subjected to mandatory quarantine when flying in - but because you want to play some sports its OK for the government to grant an exemption.

F UUUUU - how is this right and how is this just.

this country is backwards

Anyone who complains about someone using the “back door” to escape this hellhole will receive fits of laughter from me.

The logic paradox with the exemption of athletes and politicians for MHQ is all the justification anyone needs to suit themselves from now on.

Oranage2 · 13-04-2021 01:48AM

dalyboy wrote: »

Anyone who complains about someone using the “back door” to escape this hellhole will receive fits of laughter from me.

The logic paradox with the exemption of athletes and politicians for MHQ is all the justification anyone needs to suit themselves from now on.

It's nearly 2k per person. If the government made it more affordable it would be better received.

SusanC10 · 13-04-2021 05:57AM

stephenjmcd wrote: »

No, it's just a few countries coming together to submit a proposal to the commission. They all agree on the criteria for what they would like to see. They now submit this for consideration as part of the overall plans.

The commission are the ones who will set out the processes surrounding a green cert etc for members to implement

This is what I took from the article too.

Wallander · 13-04-2021 06:39AM

RedPaddyX wrote: »

Exactly my concern - a vague murky rationale for MHQ country selection means no transparency or accountability on who gets selected and how long we keep it in place. Precisely why I’m so concerned with this idiocy. It could be in place indefinitely for years.

The fact their criteria is so opaque gives me hope though - once a few legal challenges show the lack of logic behind it, the government will increasingly feel like idiots and get absolutely sick of the amount of time and effort they are putting into it. Don't forget they aligned their green list last summer to the EU system because Ireland trying to do its own thing looked increasingly stupid.

GazzaL · 13-04-2021 07:07AM

When are they reopening the passport service?

13-04-2021 07:14AM

bluelamp wrote: »

Im completely against mandatory hotel quarantine - but I want every single elite athlete coming back from matches, every politicians back from Brussels etc to do have to do it now, since its apparently about variants.

Watch it fail then.

Quarantine for the plebs, but not rugby players or politicians.

Give me a break... people calling for more of this misery need their head examined.

Sad people living sad existences. Waiting for their ruler to give them permission to visit their friend in a back garden.

I don't agree with calling people sad or living sad existences, that's just not fair to the vast amount of law abiding citizens in this country.
My mother and plenty like her believe in doing the right thing, they believe what they are told by government and I don't believe insulting those people is the best or nicest way to get your point across. Perhaps it makes you the 'sad' one, insulting those people.

Anyway, MHQ is either for all of for No one, they cannot pick and choose. Some of these cases need to go all the way to court and be found unconstitutional. Sooner the better.

13-04-2021 07:16AM

GazzaL wrote: »

When are they reopening the passport service?

It is open

Hellrazer · 13-04-2021 07:19AM

GazzaL wrote: »

When are they reopening the passport service?

You dont need the passport service - youre never leaving Ireland again!!!
Do you not know wave 4 is on the way?

On a more serious note - someone should challenge the constitutionality of that over the MHQ - A passport is a fundamental constitutional right if Im not mistaken.

faceman · 13-04-2021 07:20AM

Donald Trump wrote: »

It is a public health emergency. The clue is in the name - National Public Health Emergency Team. They are there to provide guidance and keep the public updated too, as well as advising the government. You want them to be hidden and the politicians to be delivering the message? Who do you want coming on the telly to give you the updates - Danny Healy-Rae? I want the medical experts to be delivering the news about the pandemic. The government can deliver the news about their political decisions.

You have other posters going mental on another thread because they can't find out the names of some travel advisory group. And you're complaining that we know who NPHET are.

You’re more astute to recognise that NPHET have are front facing civil servants who are supposed to be in advisory capacity, something that has been questioned numerous times in the media over the past year. NPHET members regularly speak to media in both a personal and professional capacity with their comments blurring the lines of the roles. No other government advisors or high ranking civil servants have been interviewed on the Late Late Show.

More dangerously there is no capacity for NPHET to be questioned in the Dail or in the press conferences by TDs in opposition or anyone else

No other country in the world has this set up

Santan · 13-04-2021 07:28AM

faceman wrote: »

You’re more astute to recognise that NPHET have are front facing civil servants who are supposed to be in advisory capacity, something that has been questioned numerous times in the media over the past year. NPHET members regularly speak to media in both a personal and professional capacity with their comments blurring the lines of the roles. No other government advisors or high ranking civil servants have been interviewed on the Late Late Show.

More dangerously there is no capacity for NPHET to be questioned in the Dail or in the press conferences by TDs in opposition or anyone else

No other country in the world has this set up

This is a serious issue for me, if they are given every opportunity to speak on public broadcasting, then they should be put out for public questioning, able to show evidence of what they are saying/warning

Chuck Norris 2021 · 13-04-2021 07:43AM

bubblypop wrote: »

It is open

Incorrect. They're processing emergency passports one day a week, and then using any remaining time to process online renewals not requiring supporting paperwork for the balance of the day. These are chosen at random. Hence they are not operating as normal. I would imagine this is what the OP was asking.

GazzaL · 13-04-2021 08:30AM

bubblypop wrote: »

It is open

The Passport Service has paused operations in line with the move to Level 5 of the Government's National Framework on Living with COVID-19 from 24 December 2020.
https://www.dfa.ie/passports/

The backlog stands at 83,000. The Department of Foreign Affairs has said it will resume operations once the country returns to Level 4 restrictions and that any backlog will be cleared within “six to eight weeks”.
https://www.thejournal.ie/passport-applications-2-5404612-Apr2021/

Very limited numbers of passports are being processed at the moment.

To say they're open when they're doing **** all apart from a handful of passports and Web Chat is a joke.

mmclo · 13-04-2021 08:32AM

TobyHolmes wrote: »

Please justify now for me please how the hell the french team can fly in for a match while the irish people's businesses and livelihoods remain closed, mental health deteriorating, residents restricted to a 5km radius for MONTHS and now subjected to mandatory quarantine when flying in - but because you want to play some sports its OK for the government to grant an exemption.

F UUUUU - how is this right and how is this just.

this country is backwards

Interesting how this has gone very quite.

All the Governments actions show they know one of the "hard cases" will lead to the law being struck down. The strategy now seems to be to delay that day as much as possible. If it is in about 2 weeks the case numbers may be lower and they might exempt vaccinated and things might be relaxing a little more, ideally this would coincide with next relaxation (May 5?). Maybe the sports decisions can wait a little too

If they loose a case they may be able to patch it up with a new SI again probably exempting vaccinated

Tazz T · 13-04-2021 08:33AM

josip wrote: »

May not put paid to it, but confirms the suspicion that if Ireland are to partake in it, NPHET will have to be dragged into it kicking and screaming.
They'll probably try to drag their heels long enough that by the time they are forced to join, it will be too late.
It's not a surprise that all the Med countries are on it and that the Germans are on it too, for them a summer sun holiday is an inalienable right.
But it's incredible to think that so many EU countries, including Ireland, don't want their citizens to enjoy the summer.

Ireland will probably sign up to it and then put all the countries in it on the MHQ list. Problem sorted.

Donald Trump · 13-04-2021 09:31AM

faceman wrote: »

You’re more astute to recognise that NPHET have are front facing civil servants who are supposed to be in advisory capacity, something that has been questioned numerous times in the media over the past year. NPHET members regularly speak to media in both a personal and professional capacity with their comments blurring the lines of the roles. No other government advisors or high ranking civil servants have been interviewed on the Late Late Show.

More dangerously there is no capacity for NPHET to be questioned in the Dail or in the press conferences by TDs in opposition or anyone else

No other country in the world has this set up

Faceman, just because you are apparently unaware of how other countries are dealing with things, does not mean that they are doing it how you imagine in your head they are doing it.

Here is a press conference from an Irish born lady who works in the Ministry of health in NZ

There was a bit about her in the papers here last year when the whole thing kicked off because she was so visible and high profile over there. Her accent is gone but she grew up in the North.

Now, when you say "civil servants", many of the people on NPHET are not what most consider to be "civil servants". They may work for the public sector, so you can use that to justify the terminology if you want. But it is a bit misleading. You're not talking about someone who went in and did civil service exams at 18 or 22 and got promoted up through the system. There are physicians and academics there that are now employed by public bodies. I would call them public servants rather than civil servants.

People are moaning about the "secretive" travel advisory committee and saying they can't be identified or questions.

It is part of NPHET's job to manage the pandemic here. The other part of their job is to advise the government. There is nothing wrong with them making their views public. I don't know why anyone would want a scenario where NPHET advises X and the government would decide Y and nobody would ever have to know what the medical advice actually is. That appears to be the logical conclusion of what you are calling for - so that Stephen Donnelly et. al. can do what he likes and information keeping the public informed other than what he tells you. You might be a big fan of his and extremely trusting but I would not be comfortable with medical information and advice being suppressed.

Chuck Norris 2021 · 13-04-2021 09:54AM

Donald Trump wrote: »

Faceman, just because you are apparently unaware of how other countries are dealing with things, does not mean that they are doing it how you imagine in your head they are doing it.

Here is a press conference from an Irish born lady who works in the Ministry of health in NZ

There was a bit about her in the papers here last year when the whole thing kicked off because she was so visible and high profile over there. Her accent is gone but she grew up in the North.

Now, when you say "civil servants", many of the people on NPHET are not what most consider to be "civil servants". They may work for the public sector, so you can use that to justify the terminology if you want. But it is a bit misleading. You're not talking about someone who went in and did civil service exams at 18 or 22 and got promoted up through the system. There are physicians and academics there that are now employed by public bodies. I would call them public servants rather than civil servants.

People are moaning about the "secretive" travel advisory committee and saying they can't be identified or questions.

It is part of NPHET's job to manage the pandemic here. The other part of their job is to advise the government. There is nothing wrong with them making their views public. I don't know why anyone would want a scenario where NPHET advises X and the government would decide Y and nobody would ever have to know what the medical advice actually is. That appears to be the logical conclusion of what you are calling for - so that Stephen Donnelly et. al. can do what he likes and information keeping the public informed other than what he tells you. You might be a big fan of his and extremely trusting but I would not be comfortable with medical information and advice being suppressed.

Firstly I think it's important to remember that we are not NZ. We are a tiny little dot in the north Atlantic, and we cannot compare ourselves to NZ or follow their lead.

I can see Faceman's point. NPHET's job is to advise the government as you have said, however, their constant exposure in the media causes nothing but confusion and conflict. They are there to advise, their advice then needs to be considered by MULTIPLE government departments, not just health, before being released to the public. They should not be going off on solo runs. In addition, an awful lot of experts, academics, etc do not have the greatest communication skills, and so when they deliver information to the public they are not delivering it in the correct way, which is increasing anxiety in the general public. Therefore, the people who should be making the final decisions (the government) end up being ruled by people who's qualifications are in the medical field, and the public. There is no regard to balance or to the economy, or peoples mental health. So the tail is wagging the dog. None of this is helped by the FF/FG arrangement, where each side is on a solo run, so we end up with a lot of conflicting information. In short NPHET should not comment publicly without consulting the government. And all government departments should have an opportunity to review.

faceman · 13-04-2021 09:57AM

Donald Trump wrote: »

Faceman, just because you are apparently unaware of how other countries are dealing with things, does not mean that they are doing it how you imagine in your head they are doing it.

Here is a press conference from an Irish born lady who works in the Ministry of health in NZ

There was a bit about her in the papers here last year when the whole thing kicked off because she was so visible and high profile over there. Her accent is gone but she grew up in the North.

You’ve shared an official from the NZ ministry of health giving a health update. It’s not comparable.

wrote:

Now, when you say "civil servants", many of the people on NPHET are not what most consider to be "civil servants". They may work for the public sector, so you can use that to justify the terminology if you want. But it is a bit misleading. You're not talking about someone who went in and did civil service exams at 18 or 22 and got promoted up through the system. There are physicians and academics there that are now employed by public bodies. I would call them public servants rather than civil servants.

Fair, but the point remains

wrote:

People are moaning about the "secretive" travel advisory committee and saying they can't be identified or questions.

Details as to the who and what of NPHET are listed on gov.ie. I don’t think the same can be said for the travel group.

wrote:

It is part of NPHET's job to manage the pandemic here. The other part of their job is to advise the government. There is nothing wrong with them making their views public. I don't know why anyone would want a scenario where NPHET advises X and the government would decide Y and nobody would ever have to know what the medical advice actually is. That appears to be the logical conclusion of what you are calling for - so that Stephen Donnelly et. al. can do what he likes and information keeping the public informed other than what he tells you. You might be a big fan of his and extremely trusting but I would not be comfortable with medical information and advice being suppressed.

Firstly NPHET’s role is not managing the pandemic. They are operate in an advisory and information sharing role only. The ministry of health and HSE manage the pandemic with the minister in the driving seat

You’re talking about a different thing altogether. Nobody is suggesting the suppression of information. Not sure why you would bring that up. NPHET meetings, like the travel advisory group, are supposed to be minuted and shared publicly. You’ll recall there have been periods of months where NPHET meeting minutes were not shared. Leaks and media appearances continued which only served to create anxiety, disconnect, undermining of the government throughout the pandemic.

This represents a massive failure in communication, confidence and trust for the public.

This is not how you run a country

Donald Trump · 13-04-2021 09:59AM

Chuck Norris 2021 wrote: »

Firstly I think it's important to remember that we are not NZ. We are a tiny little dot in the north Atlantic, and we cannot compare ourselves to NZ or follow their lead.

I can see Faceman's point. NPHET's job is to advise the government as you have said, however, their constant exposure in the media causes nothing but confusion and conflict. They are there to advise, their advice then needs to be considered by MULTIPLE government departments, not just health, before being released to the public. They should not be going off on solo runs. In addition, an awful lot of experts, academics, etc do not have the greatest communication skills, and so when they deliver information to the public they are not delivering it in the correct way, which is increasing anxiety in the general public. Therefore, the people who should be making the final decisions (the government) end up being ruled by people who's qualifications are in the medical field, and the public. There is no regard to balance or to the economy, or peoples mental health. So the tail is wagging the dog. None of this is helped by the FF/FG arrangement, where each side is on a solo run, so we end up with a lot of conflicting information. In short NPHET should not comment publicly without consulting the government. And all government departments should have an opportunity to review.

I want to hear what NPHET advise. The government make their decisions but I want them to be able to stand over it. I want to know when they go against that advice too, so that if something goes wrong, that they are held responsible for that decision.

How would you feel if NPHET were not allowed to make their advice public and they had been telling the government that we didn't need MHQ or any quarantine travel restrictions at all. But that SD was ignoring that advice and deciding that we did, and that same medical advice would be buried from the public eye?
All you can conclude, as a member of the public, is that that must be what the medical advice is telling him to do! Would be grand for the politicians no doubt

Donald Trump · 13-04-2021 10:10AM

Faceman, many of the people on NPHET are responsible for making decisions at high level that affect how the pandemic is managed.
You can see the list of them here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Public_Health_Emergency_Team_(2020)

Some of the titles for example:
Director of Public Health Medicine of the HSE
National Director of Acute Operations of the HSE
National Clinical Lead, Critical Care Programme, HSE Consultant in Anaesthetics and Intensive Care Medicine at Beaumont Hospital, Dublin
Assistant National Director at the Office of Emergency Planning at the HSE
Director of the Department of Health Resources Division

Chuck Norris 2021 · 13-04-2021 10:14AM

Donald Trump wrote: »

I want to hear what NPHET advise. The government make their decisions but I want them to be able to stand over it. I want to know when they go against that advice too, so that if something goes wrong, that they are held responsible for that decision.

How would you feel if NPHET were not allowed to make their advice public and they had been telling the government that we didn't need MHQ or any quarantine travel restrictions at all. But that SD was ignoring that advice and deciding that we did, and that same medical advice would be buried from the public eye?
All you can conclude, as a member of the public, is that that must be what the medical advice is telling him to do! Would be grand for the politicians no doubt

The problem is that they are on a solo run, and there appears to be zero accountability on their part for what they say in the public domain. They are causing undue anxiety and fear through their unfiltered press releases. They are doing nothing to bolster the effort against Covid at this point in my view. People are getting sick and tired of the restrictions because every time they are offered a glimmer of hope we end up with one of those sickening, scowling, file pictures of Hollohan or Glen in an article with yet more pessimism about our progress. This is then feeding the angry mob. I remember as a child seeing 'The Sullivans' on TV, Ireland is like that now, people sitting around the wireless to get the latest updates on the never ending war! Sooner or later we will need to emerge from this, and I feel NPHETs over cautious, what if, approach is hampering this. I also firmly believe that their willingness to keep this going is to divert attention away from poor decisions past and present by its stakeholders.

faceman · 13-04-2021 10:17AM

Donald Trump wrote: »

Faceman, many of the people on NPHET are responsible for making decisions at high level that affect how the pandemic is managed.
You can see the list of them here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Public_Health_Emergency_Team_(2020)

Some of the titles for example:
Director of Public Health Medicine of the HSE
National Director of Acute Operations of the HSE
National Clinical Lead, Critical Care Programme, HSE Consultant in Anaesthetics and Intensive Care Medicine at Beaumont Hospital, Dublin
Assistant National Director at the Office of Emergency Planning at the HSE
Director of the Department of Health Resources Division

As true as that is, their day to day roles are separate to NPHET. NPHET doesn’t manage the pandemic

Donald Trump · 13-04-2021 10:27AM

faceman wrote: »

As true as that is, their day to day roles are separate to NPHET. NPHET doesn’t manage the pandemic

If you want to get into semantics we could be here all day. The group does serve two purposes. It will allow those people to meet and discuss and coordinate. It also has input from experts too (whether people believe they are experts or not). They go back to their roles and make decisions which are directly managing the pandemic. You are correct if you are saying that there isn't an official proclamation from NPHET ordering the HSE how to manage or plan their resources, but things on the ground are being managed directly by the people who are meeting and coordinating under its auspices

On the other side of things - advising the government on their macro level policy, that is just that - advice to the government. Who then have full discretion and responsibility to make decisions ignoring or accepting that advice in part or in full.
Why do we want to waste half a day dragging Ronan Glynn into the Dail trying to explain to Danny Healy-Rae that Ronan Glynn doesn't think that eating a 9 Euro sandwich gives you immunity from the disease. While it would no doubt be entertaining for future reeling-in-the-years episodes, it would be irrelevant for today.

They advise and then the government can decide whether or not to accept that advice. The government would also be free to take advice from elsewhere. The government make the overall macro-level policy decisions. If other TDs want to protest or question and decisions, they do that with the government TDs.

Donald Trump · 13-04-2021 10:34AM

Chuck Norris 2021 wrote: »

The problem is that they are on a solo run, and there appears to be zero accountability on their part for what they say in the public domain. They are causing undue anxiety and fear through their unfiltered press releases. They are doing nothing to bolster the effort against Covid at this point in my view. People are getting sick and tired of the restrictions because every time they are offered a glimmer of hope we end up with one of those sickening, scowling, file pictures of Hollohan or Glen in an article with yet more pessimism about our progress. This is then feeding the angry mob. I remember as a child seeing 'The Sullivans' on TV, Ireland is like that now, people sitting around the wireless to get the latest updates on the never ending war! Sooner or later we will need to emerge from this, and I feel NPHETs over cautious, what if, approach is hampering this. I also firmly believe that their willingness to keep this going is to divert attention away from poor decisions past and present by its stakeholders.

Chuck, they are (mainly) medical professionals that deal in facts. If you went for a check up and, god forbid, the doctor thought you had something serious wrong with you, then he would have to tell you. He couldn't keep it to himself because he didn't want to worry you or make you anxious by pointing out that you actually might have only 6 months left

Are we there yet? Your second Travel Megathread (threadbans in OP}

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