Dart+ — no Ballyfermot station and why not just four-track to the Phoenix Park tunnel

monument wrote: »

Dublin Inquirer has a story covering the issue of no no Ballyfermot station in the Dart+ plan: https://dublininquirer.com/2021/03/31/a-planned-dart-line-may-pass-through-ballyfermot-without-stopping

That got me thinking: why not four-track to the Phoenix Park tunnel?

Is there actually a whole lot in the way? It doesn’t seem so to me. I mean it would not be cheap, but it looks far from impossible.

The original (1990s) Cherry Orchard station was further East. It was never well used and having open access to the line there was a constant source of vandalism, trespass and ASB from the locals.

Would a station closer to Ballyfermot be more used now there are trains through to Connolly/Pearse? Yes. Would there still be a massive issue with vandalism in that area? Yes.

There is just about space for Quad tracking but it would be a considerable amount of work. The current cutting from Inchicore to Heuston is 3 track but doesn't have space for a 4th without digging out the bank on the north side. I expect it would have to be re-engineered to have a structural retaining wall.

It is unlikely it could be done without major disruption to the railway and possibly also to the N4.

The access line to Inchicore would be needed for running so major changes to the layout there would be needed.

There are also 4 or 5 overbridges on that section, unlikely anything short of replacement would give the required clearance.

A station at Kylemore road would be useful with direct trains to the city rather than Heuston but the space there for both 4 tracking and a station (even just a single Island serving the PPT lines) looks very tight. It would need to be manned with security during opening hours and well barricaded to prevent access at night as well.

L1011 wrote: »

Well, there's no overtaking need between the main lines and the PPT, so it wouldn't have any regular use if any use.

There is no doubt that completely separating local and fast traffic all the way from Heuston and Islandbridge Jn out as far as possible would be very beneficial, as always it comes down to money and will.

Is the vandalism issue worse than at Broombridge?

Zebra3 wrote: »

Is it still an issue at Broombridge since the Luas opened there?

Broombridge is amazing now. Luas changed everything. As for Kylemore not having a station I believe that the Dart Underground latest plans are for it to be around there. So Kylemore I think would actually be on an incline.

Victor wrote: »

The idea with DART Underground was that there would be a heavy rail station at Inchicore and then about 4 Luas stops in Ballyfermot.

That said, I expressed a preference to have a heavy rail station between Le Fanu Road and Kylemore Road, the problem being that the roads are about 450 metres apart, but the station only needing to be 200-250 metres long.

That Inchicore station plan was never a great idea. It had little to no access to the surrounding areas. The Luas was planned to go over Kylmore bridge. Would've made much more sense to just build the station there from the beginning rather than re-routing and driving up the cost of the Luas project.

A walkway/laneway from Le Fanu would be more than adequate rather than a whole station entrance. It's a fairly low catchment area with it been just as easy for anyone to the east of the road to travel to Kylmore.

I always felt a direct walk way should've been built alongside the line from the old Cherry Orchard station bridge to Park West with a second footbridge onto it at Cherry Orchard Court, like they did in Clondalkin. It's a considerable detour, by foot, following the roads from Cherry Orchard to Park West.

Zebra3 wrote: »

Is it still an issue at Broombridge since the Luas opened there?

IE have installed two ticket machines at B Bridge now.
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The correct decision not to have a station at Ballyfermot, not needed and the level of potential passengers isn't there at this time.

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

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The correct decision not to have a station at Ballyfermot, not needed and the level of potential passengers isn't there at this time.

How do you come to that conclusion? Its alot more populated in both residential and commercial settings than any other station along the line.

MyLove4Satan wrote: »

Ballyfermot is actually low density - 1940s semis with large green areas.

Is there any people living in those houses or do we not care how they get from A-B?

Kishoge has nobody in it and Adamstown had no one in it but we still built stations.

Localised density is only one consideration that should go into the CBA of any project, but let's not forget that the primary reason for these projects is to move people, and Ballyfermot has them.

The fact that the bridge HAS TO be rebuilt anyway increases the the "no-brainer" factor to include a station.

Having access from Le Fanu Road and Kylemore Road opens even more opportunity to the west as well.

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Incidentally, a Kylemore Station instantly increases the development potential of the likes of the Westlink Ind Est and other low-density units nearby.

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Density never stopped us from improving links to our more salubrious suburbs in the past. Funny how it becomes an issue now.

MyLove4Satan wrote: »

Ballyfermot is actually low density - 1940s semis with large green areas.

So is the entire flippin' DART line!

Vic_08 wrote: »

Would there still be a massive issue with vandalism in that area? Yes.

I would actually dispute that. There's little to no vandalism in that area. The most unpleasant thing around there is all the traffic on Kylemore Road.

For reference:

https://goo.gl/maps/H3HvSWUteD7Tx3QQA

Spotless!

Maybe it is the VERY fact that there's a population within walking distance of the station that makes it a problem for some.

We all know how much IE and the powers that be love to plonk stations in the most inhospitable places and then complain that no one uses rail so let's not invest in our services.

Zebra3 wrote: »

Plus building the station will help bring about higher density.

You're not suggesting for a second that we should use infrastructural improvements to make places more livable, thus encouraging more people to move to these areas are you?

Zebra3 wrote: »

Is it still an issue at Broombridge since the Luas opened there?

Fully gentrified now. 60 year old 2 bed council houses now fetching up to €400k, residents can't afford anti-social behaviour here anymore and there's heavy footfall (pre covid). Expect the same in South Finglas when Luas arrives.

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

The area is to low density and the volume isn't there to justify a station. The commercial space around there will not generate rail traffic. Its very like Broombridge.

Provisions should be made for a station in future however land rezoning will also be required and no station should be built until there is planning granted.

The bus is the best option for the area and quicker!

So you would have no stations between Citywest and Drumcondra? what's the point in building it then?

cgcsb wrote: »

So you would have no stations between Citywest and Drumcondra? what's the point in building it then?

Is that what I said?

Thankfully the days of Jamie's attitudes to PT are over.

What attitude would that be?

Can you provide sufficient data to warrant a station at Ballyfermot?

Much higher density than where the line leaves the M50 and has multiple stops. Not having a station also limits interchange potential.

What interchange potential?

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

The area is to low density and the volume isn't there to justify a station. The commercial space around there will not generate rail traffic. Its very like Broombridge.

Provisions should be made for a station in future however land rezoning will also be required and no station should be built until there is planning granted.

The bus is the best option for the area and quicker!

Well in that case the whole Dart upgrade of the line should be deferred until further development takes place further west. The Park West apartment block is literally the only high density living along the entire line, hence the large car parks at each station.

If the PPT wasn't in use I'd agree with you as the demand into Hueston would be weak but the PPT opens up a massive number of destinations for Kylmore.