Dart+ — no Ballyfermot station and why not just four-track to the Phoenix Park tunnel

monument

Dublin Inquirer has a story covering the issue of no no Ballyfermot station in the Dart+ plan: https://dublininquirer.com/2021/03/31/a-planned-dart-line-may-pass-through-ballyfermot-without-stopping

That got me thinking: why not four-track to the Phoenix Park tunnel?

Is there actually a whole lot in the way? It doesn’t seem so to me. I mean it would not be cheap, but it looks far from impossible.

L1011

Well, there's no overtaking need between the main lines and the PPT, so it wouldn't have any regular use if any use.

Vic_08

monument wrote: »

Dublin Inquirer has a story covering the issue of no no Ballyfermot station in the Dart+ plan: https://dublininquirer.com/2021/03/31/a-planned-dart-line-may-pass-through-ballyfermot-without-stopping

That got me thinking: why not four-track to the Phoenix Park tunnel?

Is there actually a whole lot in the way? It doesn’t seem so to me. I mean it would not be cheap, but it looks far from impossible.

The original (1990s) Cherry Orchard station was further East. It was never well used and having open access to the line there was a constant source of vandalism, trespass and ASB from the locals.

Would a station closer to Ballyfermot be more used now there are trains through to Connolly/Pearse? Yes. Would there still be a massive issue with vandalism in that area? Yes.

There is just about space for Quad tracking but it would be a considerable amount of work. The current cutting from Inchicore to Heuston is 3 track but doesn't have space for a 4th without digging out the bank on the north side. I expect it would have to be re-engineered to have a structural retaining wall.

It is unlikely it could be done without major disruption to the railway and possibly also to the N4.

The access line to Inchicore would be needed for running so major changes to the layout there would be needed.

There are also 4 or 5 overbridges on that section, unlikely anything short of replacement would give the required clearance.

A station at Kylemore road would be useful with direct trains to the city rather than Heuston but the space there for both 4 tracking and a station (even just a single Island serving the PPT lines) looks very tight. It would need to be manned with security during opening hours and well barricaded to prevent access at night as well.

L1011 wrote: »

Well, there's no overtaking need between the main lines and the PPT, so it wouldn't have any regular use if any use.

There is no doubt that completely separating local and fast traffic all the way from Heuston and Islandbridge Jn out as far as possible would be very beneficial, as always it comes down to money and will.

Peregrine

I'm a little bit confused here. Where are people saying it's being four-tracked to?

Space at Kylemore isn't really the issue since they're saying they'll put in provisions for a station, they just won't be building it now.

Replacement bridges? Kylemore Road, Memorial Road and South Circular Road overbridges as well as the Sarsfield Road underbridge will all be demolished and replaced anyway. As well as a few signal bridges.

https://www.google.com/maps/d/u/2/edit?mid=1JxuaoKm6uVcvppDYVWfmgtqtlQNqd0ld&usp=sharing

dowlingm

I wouldn’t agree that a station in a vandalism prone area would necessarily have to be staffed, just that it be secured. The way to do that would be to put a building there, not a halt. Access to the station would be via building entrances, not gates and fences, so that when the building is closed, so is the station. Would that cost a sum of money, sure, but then you put State agency and Dublin civic facilities in as building tenants above the station level, with space for small commercial spaces along the main level/concourse.

Unfortunately the way that the residential and commercial uses encroach on the line means some expropriation is going to be required whether it is at Kylemore Road, Le Fanu Road, or to extend Cherry Orchard Drive across to Lavery Avenue to take some load.

One of the biggest impediments to four tracking through that area is IE itself, given that the Inchicore Complex massively severs the two sides of the tracks - there is a full mile between the Sarsfield Road and Kylemore Avenue bridges, which makes changes to/closure of the latter and the Le Fanu crossing even more severe on the local areas.

Victor

Vic_08 wrote: »

There are also 4 or 5 overbridges on that section, unlikely anything short of replacement would give the required clearance.

The Kylemore Road bridge is considered life expired and needs replacement anyway. I understand it is a Dublin City Council bridge, not an Irish Rail one.

Carawaystick

Is the vandalism issue worse than at Broombridge?

Zebra3

Carawaystick wrote: »

Is the vandalism issue worse than at Broombridge?

Is it still an issue at Broombridge since the Luas opened there?

MyLove4Satan

Zebra3 wrote: »

Is it still an issue at Broombridge since the Luas opened there?

Broombridge is amazing now. Luas changed everything. As for Kylemore not having a station I believe that the Dart Underground latest plans are for it to be around there. So Kylemore I think would actually be on an incline.

Victor

The idea with DART Underground was that there would be a heavy rail station at Inchicore and then about 4 Luas stops in Ballyfermot.

That said, I expressed a preference to have a heavy rail station between Le Fanu Road and Kylemore Road, the problem being that the roads are about 450 metres apart, but the station only needing to be 200-250 metres long.

IE 222

Victor wrote: »

The idea with DART Underground was that there would be a heavy rail station at Inchicore and then about 4 Luas stops in Ballyfermot.

That said, I expressed a preference to have a heavy rail station between Le Fanu Road and Kylemore Road, the problem being that the roads are about 450 metres apart, but the station only needing to be 200-250 metres long.

That Inchicore station plan was never a great idea. It had little to no access to the surrounding areas. The Luas was planned to go over Kylmore bridge. Would've made much more sense to just build the station there from the beginning rather than re-routing and driving up the cost of the Luas project.

A walkway/laneway from Le Fanu would be more than adequate rather than a whole station entrance. It's a fairly low catchment area with it been just as easy for anyone to the east of the road to travel to Kylmore.

I always felt a direct walk way should've been built alongside the line from the old Cherry Orchard station bridge to Park West with a second footbridge onto it at Cherry Orchard Court, like they did in Clondalkin. It's a considerable detour, by foot, following the roads from Cherry Orchard to Park West.

MyLove4Satan

IE 222 wrote: »

That Inchicore station plan was never a great idea. It had little to no access to the surrounding areas.

It is only a matter of time before the railway works at Inchicore are sold off for housing. Most of the location right now is a dump for old trains and many of the technical elements can be easily moved somewhere else on the network. It's a Victorian left over. Irish Rail would get untold millions for the site.

Jamie2k9

Zebra3 wrote: »

Is it still an issue at Broombridge since the Luas opened there?

IE have installed two ticket machines at B Bridge now.
___

The correct decision not to have a station at Ballyfermot, not needed and the level of potential passengers isn't there at this time.

IE 222

MyLove4Satan wrote: »

It is only a matter of time before the railway works at Inchicore are sold off for housing. Most of the location right now is a dump for old trains and many of the technical elements can be easily moved somewhere else on the network. It's a Victorian left over. Irish Rail would get untold millions for the site.

Well its definitely under used in it's current form. It would make sense to look at putting a Dart stabling, service and washing depot within it. I'd imagine a new DMU service depot of some sort will be needed if Drogheda is to change to DART. Fairview would probably make a better DMU servicing depot with some EMU stabling roads. They studied Greystones for the maintenance depot so maybe they've a site lined up for stabling/ servicing down there.

IE 222

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

___

The correct decision not to have a station at Ballyfermot, not needed and the level of potential passengers isn't there at this time.

How do you come to that conclusion? Its alot more populated in both residential and commercial settings than any other station along the line.

MyLove4Satan

Ballyfermot is actually low density - 1940s semis with large green areas.

BonnieSituation

MyLove4Satan wrote: »

Ballyfermot is actually low density - 1940s semis with large green areas.

Is there any people living in those houses or do we not care how they get from A-B?

Kishoge has nobody in it and Adamstown had no one in it but we still built stations.

Localised density is only one consideration that should go into the CBA of any project, but let's not forget that the primary reason for these projects is to move people, and Ballyfermot has them.

The fact that the bridge HAS TO be rebuilt anyway increases the the "no-brainer" factor to include a station.

Having access from Le Fanu Road and Kylemore Road opens even more opportunity to the west as well.

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Incidentally, a Kylemore Station instantly increases the development potential of the likes of the Westlink Ind Est and other low-density units nearby.

---

Density never stopped us from improving links to our more salubrious suburbs in the past. Funny how it becomes an issue now.

BonnieSituation

IE 222 wrote: »

Well its definitely under used in it's current form. It would make sense to look at putting a Dart stabling, service and washing depot within it. I'd imagine a new DMU service depot of some sort will be needed if Drogheda is to change to DART. Fairview would probably make a better DMU servicing depot with some EMU stabling roads. They studied Greystones for the maintenance depot so maybe they've a site lined up for stabling/ servicing down there.

IE should be banned from selling any of their holdings.

The days of them being a property company that have a railway as an after-thought need to come to an end.

Ben D Bus

MyLove4Satan wrote: »

Ballyfermot is actually low density - 1940s semis with large green areas.

So is the entire flippin' DART line!

Vic_08 wrote: »

Would there still be a massive issue with vandalism in that area? Yes.

I would actually dispute that. There's little to no vandalism in that area. The most unpleasant thing around there is all the traffic on Kylemore Road.

For reference:

https://goo.gl/maps/H3HvSWUteD7Tx3QQA

Spotless!

BonnieSituation

One of the best ways to cure vandalism problems is to improve throughput and footfall.

A busy station is a great way to do that.

Peregrine

Hazelhatch:


Adamstown:


Kishogue:


Clondalkin:


Park West:


Kylemore:


A station at Kylemore on the Hazelhatch line would have the distinction of actually having houses along one side of it. The other side consists of brownfield sites and industrial areas that would be perfect for housing. The existing stations on the line are serving current and future greenfield sprawl and didn't have to justify their existence.



The existing housing is not particularly less dense than other housing estates in Dublin.

But Ballyfermot has to justify itself for some reason.

Zebra3

Plus building the station will help bring about higher density.

BonnieSituation

Maybe it is the VERY fact that there's a population within walking distance of the station that makes it a problem for some.

We all know how much IE and the powers that be love to plonk stations in the most inhospitable places and then complain that no one uses rail so let's not invest in our services.

Zebra3 wrote: »

Plus building the station will help bring about higher density.

You're not suggesting for a second that we should use infrastructural improvements to make places more livable, thus encouraging more people to move to these areas are you?

Jamie2k9

The area is to low density and the volume isn't there to justify a station. The commercial space around there will not generate rail traffic. Its very like Broombridge.

Provisions should be made for a station in future however land rezoning will also be required and no station should be built until there is planning granted.

The bus is the best option for the area and quicker!

cgcsb

Zebra3 wrote: »

Is it still an issue at Broombridge since the Luas opened there?

Fully gentrified now. 60 year old 2 bed council houses now fetching up to €400k, residents can't afford anti-social behaviour here anymore and there's heavy footfall (pre covid). Expect the same in South Finglas when Luas arrives.

cgcsb

MyLove4Satan wrote: »

Ballyfermot is actually low density - 1940s semis with large green areas.

Much higher density than where the line leaves the M50 and has multiple stops. Not having a station also limits interchange potential.

cgcsb

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

The area is to low density and the volume isn't there to justify a station. The commercial space around there will not generate rail traffic. Its very like Broombridge.

Provisions should be made for a station in future however land rezoning will also be required and no station should be built until there is planning granted.

The bus is the best option for the area and quicker!

So you would have no stations between Citywest and Drumcondra? what's the point in building it then?

BonnieSituation

cgcsb wrote: »

So you would have no stations between Citywest and Drumcondra? what's the point in building it then?

Thankfully the days of Jamie's attitudes to PT are over.

Jamie2k9

cgcsb wrote: »

So you would have no stations between Citywest and Drumcondra? what's the point in building it then?

Is that what I said?

Thankfully the days of Jamie's attitudes to PT are over.

What attitude would that be?

Can you provide sufficient data to warrant a station at Ballyfermot?

Much higher density than where the line leaves the M50 and has multiple stops. Not having a station also limits interchange potential.

What interchange potential?

IE 222

BonnieSituation wrote: »

IE should be banned from selling any of their holdings.

The days of them being a property company that have a railway as an after-thought need to come to an end.

Agreed. Does IE lands fall within the LDA's grasp? If the LDA believe IE have excess redundant land in the likes of North Wall or Inchicore can they pursue it.

IE 222

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

The area is to low density and the volume isn't there to justify a station. The commercial space around there will not generate rail traffic. Its very like Broombridge.

Provisions should be made for a station in future however land rezoning will also be required and no station should be built until there is planning granted.

The bus is the best option for the area and quicker!

Well in that case the whole Dart upgrade of the line should be deferred until further development takes place further west. The Park West apartment block is literally the only high density living along the entire line, hence the large car parks at each station.

If the PPT wasn't in use I'd agree with you as the demand into Hueston would be weak but the PPT opens up a massive number of destinations for Kylmore.

IE 222

There is well over a 1000 homes within walking distance of Klymore bridge. You'd also have a number of people travelling from further a field to use it along with a number of workers commuting to there.

I'd nearly argue there is enough demand for a second station around Sarsfield Road for Inchicore.

L1011

The density of the area to the South is going to massively, massively increase in the next few years. Royal Liver Retail Park going for apartments, old Nissan plant (Fiat Ireland more recently) going for apartments. The low rise industrial/commercial North of the canal is going to be obviously on the block after that

Qrt

Too lazy to quote but whoever said Ballyfermot is full of 3-bed semis...I’m going assume you’ve never actually been to Ballyfermot? Ballyfermot Mainer is easily one of the busiest places I know in Dublin footfall wise, granted the Kylemore station would be a way’s away but seriously!

BonnieSituation

I was only thinking something similar yesterday that in all the years I have known Ballyer [I grew up there and am still fond of tipping into Lam's once in a while], that the main strip at Colepark has never had an empty unit that I recall. And if it did, it wasn't for very long.

cgcsb

Isn't DART+ SW supposed to be available now? does anyone have a date/timeline?

monument

MyLove4Satan wrote: »

Ballyfermot is actually low density - 1940s semis with large green areas.

Actual density of more than 5,800 people per square km around the railway in Ballyfermot -- this seems to be the highest current density along a railway line outside of Dublin City Centre.

The only place that comes close to this along a railway line outside the city centre in Dublin is between Raheny and Kilbarrack (5,700 per square km).



https://dancooksonresearch.carto.com/u/dancookson/viz/49ca276c-adf9-454a-8f64-0ccf0e46eed0/embed_map

Some of the above may be forced density (ie people living in their family homes for longer due to the housing crisis), but the fact remains, it's not low density compared to the rest of the network. None of the coastal areas the Dart serves or the commuter towns it will serve comes close to 5,800 people per square km and Ballyfermot also has workplaces and educational trip generators.

IE 222

Cabra has an ever greater number and there 2011 numbers.

beauf

cgcsb wrote: »

Fully gentrified now. 60 year old 2 bed council houses now fetching up to €400k, residents can't afford anti-social behaviour here anymore and there's heavy footfall (pre covid). Expect the same in South Finglas when Luas arrives.

Not really the topic under discussion. But the population in an area doesn't change that much in 3 or 4 years. The train station has largely changed because of the massive footfall and frequency of Luas's. It's pulling in people from a large area. There's also a lot transfer between trains and Luas.

Also many stations are park and ride. So they don't have to be in the middle of dense housing to be effective.

The high prices are also reflective of housing crisis. You don't gentrify an area in 3 or 4 years. There are areas in Dublin that had seemed to gentrified but with reduction of footfall due to lockdown anti social behaviour has reverted to what it was years ago. But this is really all off topic.

I don't really have any faith in whomever forecasts demand in stations. They were talking of closing Docklands due to low numbers, numbers caused by the low frequency and shortening of the trains on the route. Nothing to do with demand at all.

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/irelands-newest-train-station-could-move-because-of-major-shortfall-in-passengers-36916197.html

L1011

Docklands couldn't serve any more passengers than it was serving as the peak-time trains were crush capacity in peak direction; and it had no non-peak trains at all. Either train lengths or frequencies had to go up to increase.

beauf

In the yrs I was using the Docklands trains they actually shortened the trains as number of passengers increased. They wanted to close it, then move it. Using low numbers as a justification. When the reality was it was jammed beyond belief. Some weird scheming going on with all that.

The platforms can take much longer trains. The trains used to be longer. So I assume they robbed capacity from that line to use somewhere else. So even without changing the schedule. The line used to have higher capacity in the past.

Anyway sounds like there's similar "planning" going on with Dart+.

BonnieSituation

beauf wrote: »

In the 5 or 6 yrs I was using the Docklands trains they actually shortened the trains as number of passengers increased.

They wanted to close it, then move it. Using low numbers as a justification. Some weird planning

Not weird at all. It's the IÉ way.

IE 222

Docklands station was always a temporary location. It only had planning permission to remain there for a number of years, that's been renewed. It was suggested to move the station due to low numbers rather than close it which was always the plan.

The capacity and frequency issues are the same problems effecting the rest of the commuter belt. Running a 3 car ICR on Pearse - Maynooth at peak times is going to upset a lot more people than it will on Docklands - M3.

beauf

The make and changes plan more often that they actually do them.

IE 222

beauf wrote: »

The make and changes plan more often that they actually do them.

I'm pretty sure the Maynooth line will lose direct trains into Docklands if the upgrade goes ahead.

L1011

Well Maynooth hasn't got any anyway, but there still will be in the proposed service plans and a cross platform interchange at Glasnevin is no real hardship

SeanW

beauf wrote: »

In the yrs I was using the Docklands trains they actually shortened the trains as number of passengers increased. They wanted to close it, then move it. Using low numbers as a justification. When the reality was it was jammed beyond belief. Some weird scheming going on with all that.

The platforms can take much longer trains. The trains used to be longer. So I assume they robbed capacity from that line to use somewhere else. So even without changing the schedule. The line used to have higher capacity in the past.

Anyway sounds like there's similar "planning" going on with Dart+.

The whole thing is bizarre. They're using 29000 class bone-jarring rattleboxes to provide intercity service to Sligo and Rosslare, while using 22000s that are wholly unsuited to provide peak-hour services between M3 Parkway and the Docklands. I think they used to use 4 car ICRs on the Docklands trains and then switched to 3 car trains a few years back.

There may be a good technical reason why this is happening, if so the only solution is to get more fit for purpose trains ASAP. But if it's just IE playing silly buggers assigning train types inappropriately for no reason, then IMHO serious questions need to be asked.

L1011

Docklands got a mix of 3 and 4 car 22k (and often one 29k in the mix too) so it wasn't consistently 3 car. But the peak services were crush capacity on the 29k even and I'm fairly sure more passengers closer in would go to Docklands if they could fit on the trains, relieving Connolly and the Luas a bit

SeanW

You're probably right, there's likely a mix. But I do recall at least one peak hour train being shortened to 3 car 22k, which just struck me as bizarre.

beauf

L1011 wrote: »

Docklands got a mix of 3 and 4 car 22k (and often one 29k in the mix too) so it wasn't consistently 3 car. But the peak services were crush capacity on the 29k even and I'm fairly sure more passengers closer in would go to Docklands if they could fit on the trains, relieving Connolly and the Luas a bit

Haven't seen a 4 car in recent years. But maybe it's not on at my times.

I started to skip the Docklands and get the Connolly train instead. It's was usually dramatically less over crowded.

Which is ironic because you'd think it would be easy to add capacity to the Docklands. Longer trains, and they have space for more platforms. Instead they reduced capacity. Meaning I switch back to the Connolly train. I might not be representative though. I'll be unlikely to go back to 5 days in the office too, so it's no longer an issue for me.

I assume WFH will ease peak numbers slightly for a while.

MyLove4Satan

Reopening the old station on the riverfront as stage one of the DART Underground is the best location for a station in the docklands. Footbridge across the river to go with it. Then you have a proper 'Docklands' station.