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Dart+ — no Ballyfermot station and why not just four-track to the Phoenix Park tunnel

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  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 61,785 Mod ✭✭✭✭ L1011
    Moderator


    Well, there's no overtaking need between the main lines and the PPT, so it wouldn't have any regular use if any use.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,922 ✭✭✭ Vic_08
    Registered User


    monument wrote: »
    Dublin Inquirer has a story covering the issue of no no Ballyfermot station in the Dart+ plan: https://dublininquirer.com/2021/03/31/a-planned-dart-line-may-pass-through-ballyfermot-without-stopping

    That got me thinking: why not four-track to the Phoenix Park tunnel?

    Is there actually a whole lot in the way? It doesn’t seem so to me. I mean it would not be cheap, but it looks far from impossible.

    The original (1990s) Cherry Orchard station was further East. It was never well used and having open access to the line there was a constant source of vandalism, trespass and ASB from the locals.

    Would a station closer to Ballyfermot be more used now there are trains through to Connolly/Pearse? Yes. Would there still be a massive issue with vandalism in that area? Yes.

    There is just about space for Quad tracking but it would be a considerable amount of work. The current cutting from Inchicore to Heuston is 3 track but doesn't have space for a 4th without digging out the bank on the north side. I expect it would have to be re-engineered to have a structural retaining wall.

    It is unlikely it could be done without major disruption to the railway and possibly also to the N4.

    The access line to Inchicore would be needed for running so major changes to the layout there would be needed.

    There are also 4 or 5 overbridges on that section, unlikely anything short of replacement would give the required clearance.

    A station at Kylemore road would be useful with direct trains to the city rather than Heuston but the space there for both 4 tracking and a station (even just a single Island serving the PPT lines) looks very tight. It would need to be manned with security during opening hours and well barricaded to prevent access at night as well.
    L1011 wrote: »
    Well, there's no overtaking need between the main lines and the PPT, so it wouldn't have any regular use if any use.

    There is no doubt that completely separating local and fast traffic all the way from Heuston and Islandbridge Jn out as far as possible would be very beneficial, as always it comes down to money and will.


  • Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 26,350 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Peregrine
    Moderator


    I'm a little bit confused here. Where are people saying it's being four-tracked to?

    Space at Kylemore isn't really the issue since they're saying they'll put in provisions for a station, they just won't be building it now.

    Replacement bridges? Kylemore Road, Memorial Road and South Circular Road overbridges as well as the Sarsfield Road underbridge will all be demolished and replaced anyway. As well as a few signal bridges.

    https://www.google.com/maps/d/u/2/edit?mid=1JxuaoKm6uVcvppDYVWfmgtqtlQNqd0ld&usp=sharing


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,280 ✭✭✭ dowlingm
    Registered User


    I wouldn’t agree that a station in a vandalism prone area would necessarily have to be staffed, just that it be secured. The way to do that would be to put a building there, not a halt. Access to the station would be via building entrances, not gates and fences, so that when the building is closed, so is the station. Would that cost a sum of money, sure, but then you put State agency and Dublin civic facilities in as building tenants above the station level, with space for small commercial spaces along the main level/concourse.

    Unfortunately the way that the residential and commercial uses encroach on the line means some expropriation is going to be required whether it is at Kylemore Road, Le Fanu Road, or to extend Cherry Orchard Drive across to Lavery Avenue to take some load.

    One of the biggest impediments to four tracking through that area is IE itself, given that the Inchicore Complex massively severs the two sides of the tracks - there is a full mile between the Sarsfield Road and Kylemore Avenue bridges, which makes changes to/closure of the latter and the Le Fanu crossing even more severe on the local areas.


  • Registered Users Posts: 77,620 ✭✭✭✭ Victor
    Registered User


    Vic_08 wrote: »
    There are also 4 or 5 overbridges on that section, unlikely anything short of replacement would give the required clearance.
    The Kylemore Road bridge is considered life expired and needs replacement anyway. I understand it is a Dublin City Council bridge, not an Irish Rail one.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 8,781 ✭✭✭ Carawaystick
    Registered User


    Is the vandalism issue worse than at Broombridge?


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,710 ✭✭✭✭ Zebra3
    Registered User


    Is the vandalism issue worse than at Broombridge?

    Is it still an issue at Broombridge since the Luas opened there?


  • Registered Users Posts: 319 ✭✭ MyLove4Satan
    Registered User


    Zebra3 wrote: »
    Is it still an issue at Broombridge since the Luas opened there?




    Broombridge is amazing now. Luas changed everything. As for Kylemore not having a station I believe that the Dart Underground latest plans are for it to be around there. So Kylemore I think would actually be on an incline.


  • Registered Users Posts: 77,620 ✭✭✭✭ Victor
    Registered User


    The idea with DART Underground was that there would be a heavy rail station at Inchicore and then about 4 Luas stops in Ballyfermot.

    That said, I expressed a preference to have a heavy rail station between Le Fanu Road and Kylemore Road, the problem being that the roads are about 450 metres apart, but the station only needing to be 200-250 metres long.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,670 ✭✭✭ IE 222
    Registered User


    Victor wrote: »
    The idea with DART Underground was that there would be a heavy rail station at Inchicore and then about 4 Luas stops in Ballyfermot.

    That said, I expressed a preference to have a heavy rail station between Le Fanu Road and Kylemore Road, the problem being that the roads are about 450 metres apart, but the station only needing to be 200-250 metres long.

    That Inchicore station plan was never a great idea. It had little to no access to the surrounding areas. The Luas was planned to go over Kylmore bridge. Would've made much more sense to just build the station there from the beginning rather than re-routing and driving up the cost of the Luas project.

    A walkway/laneway from Le Fanu would be more than adequate rather than a whole station entrance. It's a fairly low catchment area with it been just as easy for anyone to the east of the road to travel to Kylmore.

    I always felt a direct walk way should've been built alongside the line from the old Cherry Orchard station bridge to Park West with a second footbridge onto it at Cherry Orchard Court, like they did in Clondalkin. It's a considerable detour, by foot, following the roads from Cherry Orchard to Park West.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 319 ✭✭ MyLove4Satan
    Registered User


    IE 222 wrote: »
    That Inchicore station plan was never a great idea. It had little to no access to the surrounding areas.


    It is only a matter of time before the railway works at Inchicore are sold off for housing. Most of the location right now is a dump for old trains and many of the technical elements can be easily moved somewhere else on the network. It's a Victorian left over. Irish Rail would get untold millions for the site.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,484 ✭✭✭✭ Jamie2k9
    Registered User


    Zebra3 wrote: »
    Is it still an issue at Broombridge since the Luas opened there?

    IE have installed two ticket machines at B Bridge now.
    ___

    The correct decision not to have a station at Ballyfermot, not needed and the level of potential passengers isn't there at this time.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,670 ✭✭✭ IE 222
    Registered User


    It is only a matter of time before the railway works at Inchicore are sold off for housing. Most of the location right now is a dump for old trains and many of the technical elements can be easily moved somewhere else on the network. It's a Victorian left over. Irish Rail would get untold millions for the site.

    Well its definitely under used in it's current form. It would make sense to look at putting a Dart stabling, service and washing depot within it. I'd imagine a new DMU service depot of some sort will be needed if Drogheda is to change to DART. Fairview would probably make a better DMU servicing depot with some EMU stabling roads. They studied Greystones for the maintenance depot so maybe they've a site lined up for stabling/ servicing down there.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,670 ✭✭✭ IE 222
    Registered User


    Jamie2k9 wrote: »
    ___

    The correct decision not to have a station at Ballyfermot, not needed and the level of potential passengers isn't there at this time.

    How do you come to that conclusion? Its alot more populated in both residential and commercial settings than any other station along the line.


  • Registered Users Posts: 319 ✭✭ MyLove4Satan
    Registered User


    Ballyfermot is actually low density - 1940s semis with large green areas.


  • Registered Users Posts: 18,851 ✭✭✭✭ BonnieSituation
    Registered User


    Ballyfermot is actually low density - 1940s semis with large green areas.

    Is there any people living in those houses or do we not care how they get from A-B?

    Kishoge has nobody in it and Adamstown had no one in it but we still built stations.

    Localised density is only one consideration that should go into the CBA of any project, but let's not forget that the primary reason for these projects is to move people, and Ballyfermot has them.

    The fact that the bridge HAS TO be rebuilt anyway increases the the "no-brainer" factor to include a station.

    Having access from Le Fanu Road and Kylemore Road opens even more opportunity to the west as well.

    ---

    Incidentally, a Kylemore Station instantly increases the development potential of the likes of the Westlink Ind Est and other low-density units nearby.

    ---

    Density never stopped us from improving links to our more salubrious suburbs in the past. Funny how it becomes an issue now.


  • Registered Users Posts: 18,851 ✭✭✭✭ BonnieSituation
    Registered User


    IE 222 wrote: »
    Well its definitely under used in it's current form. It would make sense to look at putting a Dart stabling, service and washing depot within it. I'd imagine a new DMU service depot of some sort will be needed if Drogheda is to change to DART. Fairview would probably make a better DMU servicing depot with some EMU stabling roads. They studied Greystones for the maintenance depot so maybe they've a site lined up for stabling/ servicing down there.

    IE should be banned from selling any of their holdings.

    The days of them being a property company that have a railway as an after-thought need to come to an end.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,028 ✭✭✭ Ben D Bus
    Registered User


    Ballyfermot is actually low density - 1940s semis with large green areas.

    So is the entire flippin' DART line! :confused:
    Vic_08 wrote: »
    Would there still be a massive issue with vandalism in that area? Yes.

    I would actually dispute that. There's little to no vandalism in that area. The most unpleasant thing around there is all the traffic on Kylemore Road.

    For reference:

    https://goo.gl/maps/H3HvSWUteD7Tx3QQA

    Spotless!


  • Registered Users Posts: 18,851 ✭✭✭✭ BonnieSituation
    Registered User


    One of the best ways to cure vandalism problems is to improve throughput and footfall.

    A busy station is a great way to do that.


  • Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 26,350 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Peregrine
    Moderator


    Hazelhatch:
    Iwig1Vgl.jpg

    Adamstown:
    q1j1a9ql.jpg

    Kishogue:
    1SXdqu8l.jpg

    Clondalkin:
    BIN38Tkl.jpg

    Park West:
    cKDoKpDl.jpg

    Kylemore:
    MoEh6tll.jpg

    A station at Kylemore on the Hazelhatch line would have the distinction of actually having houses along one side of it. The other side consists of brownfield sites and industrial areas that would be perfect for housing. The existing stations on the line are serving current and future greenfield sprawl and didn't have to justify their existence.

    iAMSug2l.png

    The existing housing is not particularly less dense than other housing estates in Dublin.

    But Ballyfermot has to justify itself for some reason.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 13,710 ✭✭✭✭ Zebra3
    Registered User


    Plus building the station will help bring about higher density.


  • Registered Users Posts: 18,851 ✭✭✭✭ BonnieSituation
    Registered User


    Maybe it is the VERY fact that there's a population within walking distance of the station that makes it a problem for some.

    We all know how much IE and the powers that be love to plonk stations in the most inhospitable places and then complain that no one uses rail so let's not invest in our services.
    Zebra3 wrote: »
    Plus building the station will help bring about higher density.

    You're not suggesting for a second that we should use infrastructural improvements to make places more livable, thus encouraging more people to move to these areas are you?


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,484 ✭✭✭✭ Jamie2k9
    Registered User


    The area is to low density and the volume isn't there to justify a station. The commercial space around there will not generate rail traffic. Its very like Broombridge.

    Provisions should be made for a station in future however land rezoning will also be required and no station should be built until there is planning granted.

    The bus is the best option for the area and quicker!


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,304 ✭✭✭ cgcsb
    Registered User


    Zebra3 wrote: »
    Is it still an issue at Broombridge since the Luas opened there?

    Fully gentrified now. 60 year old 2 bed council houses now fetching up to €400k, residents can't afford anti-social behaviour here anymore and there's heavy footfall (pre covid). Expect the same in South Finglas when Luas arrives.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,304 ✭✭✭ cgcsb
    Registered User


    Ballyfermot is actually low density - 1940s semis with large green areas.

    Much higher density than where the line leaves the M50 and has multiple stops. Not having a station also limits interchange potential.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,304 ✭✭✭ cgcsb
    Registered User


    Jamie2k9 wrote: »
    The area is to low density and the volume isn't there to justify a station. The commercial space around there will not generate rail traffic. Its very like Broombridge.

    Provisions should be made for a station in future however land rezoning will also be required and no station should be built until there is planning granted.

    The bus is the best option for the area and quicker!

    So you would have no stations between Citywest and Drumcondra? what's the point in building it then?


  • Registered Users Posts: 18,851 ✭✭✭✭ BonnieSituation
    Registered User


    cgcsb wrote: »
    So you would have no stations between Citywest and Drumcondra? what's the point in building it then?

    Thankfully the days of Jamie's attitudes to PT are over.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,484 ✭✭✭✭ Jamie2k9
    Registered User


    cgcsb wrote: »
    So you would have no stations between Citywest and Drumcondra? what's the point in building it then?

    Is that what I said?
    Thankfully the days of Jamie's attitudes to PT are over.

    What attitude would that be?

    Can you provide sufficient data to warrant a station at Ballyfermot?
    Much higher density than where the line leaves the M50 and has multiple stops. Not having a station also limits interchange potential.

    What interchange potential?


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,670 ✭✭✭ IE 222
    Registered User


    IE should be banned from selling any of their holdings.

    The days of them being a property company that have a railway as an after-thought need to come to an end.

    Agreed. Does IE lands fall within the LDA's grasp? If the LDA believe IE have excess redundant land in the likes of North Wall or Inchicore can they pursue it.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,670 ✭✭✭ IE 222
    Registered User


    Jamie2k9 wrote: »
    The area is to low density and the volume isn't there to justify a station. The commercial space around there will not generate rail traffic. Its very like Broombridge.

    Provisions should be made for a station in future however land rezoning will also be required and no station should be built until there is planning granted.

    The bus is the best option for the area and quicker!

    Well in that case the whole Dart upgrade of the line should be deferred until further development takes place further west. The Park West apartment block is literally the only high density living along the entire line, hence the large car parks at each station.

    If the PPT wasn't in use I'd agree with you as the demand into Hueston would be weak but the PPT opens up a massive number of destinations for Kylmore.


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