Are we there yet? Your second Travel Megathread (threadbans in OP}

ninebeanrows · 09-04-2021 04:53PM

faceman wrote: »

Germany is on the list and is below 500

I am unsure how it could be added because if it is and it is due to 'Variants' the I really fear for things as the only reason so called variants are in Germany is due to their colossal testing and genomic sequencing...I am sure if you do that to most other nations in the Europe and the world similar amounts would be found.

Plus these variants do not evade the vaccines, so bizarre but there is no transparency about who makes these calls, who is on this travel advisory board and what their background is.

Probably zero coviders.

Micky 32 · 09-04-2021 04:55PM

ninebeanrows wrote: »

Expect all country on this list above 500 per 100k to be added

https://www.ecdc.europa.eu/en/cases-2019-ncov-eueea

I have no issue with this once they are removed once they go below 500

Have counted 11 countries above the 500 treshold!

Have the government said they are going this route?

Kramer · 09-04-2021 04:56PM

SusanC10 wrote: »

Is 500 per 100k the threshold then?

Like you I would have no issue if it was as transparent as that and if Countries were added and removed if above/below a reasonable identifiable threshold.

They can use the catch all - "variants of concern".
Can add wherever they like, based on that & it's opaque.

ninebeanrows · 09-04-2021 05:02PM

Yea the variant thing is a real nonsense as it is not measurable.

If it is, let us see the metrics and make it fair.

The 500 per 100k 14 day average thing, if that was the guideline then fair enough.

Otherwise it is a farce

----

Let us try and remember the people arriving have tested negative through highly accurate PCR tests in the last 72hrs, that is a massive filter.

zebastein · 09-04-2021 05:05PM

Question: We are afraid of the variants under the bed but why do we think that these variants are worse than the irish variant ?
As far as I know we have been told that the variant that is in Ireland is "a new virus" (MM) which is up to 90% (George Lee) more deadly than the one that we had in 2020.

So if I go to France next week and I come back, don't I have more chance to bring a variant which is better than the ultra deadly irish variant that prevents us to reopen after the lockdown ?

It is time to have some consistency in this country. Either we have the worse variant ever that prevents us any lifting of restrictions and in this case there is little risk that something worse comes from elsewhere, either the UK variant is actually not that bad and we reopen this country.

What is crazy is that if I catch the covid today, I am asked to self isolate in my home and nobody controls it (ok this goverment trust its people, fair enough). But if I go to France next week to get married and come back with a negative PCR test, I cannot self isolate in my home anymore (it seems that I become a foreigner that cannot be trusted anymore). This inconsistency drives me mad, you become a second class citizen as soon as you take a plane.

wcooba · 09-04-2021 05:06PM

Israeli nurse takes things to court on the grounds of unlawful (disproportionate) detention:
https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/woman-with-two-negative-covid-teststakes-court-challenge-to-irish-hotel-quarantine-40294902.html

fm · 09-04-2021 05:08PM

SusanC10 wrote: »

Is 500 per 100k the threshold then?

Like you I would have no issue if it was as transparent as that and if Countries were added and removed if above/below a reasonable identifiable threshold.

M.Martin said a few days ago that countries 2.5 times our rate was one reason for adding a country. We are currently 145 so that's about 360 upwards should be on it

ninebeanrows · 09-04-2021 05:10PM

fm wrote: »

M.Martin said a few days ago that countries 2.5 times our rate was one reason for adding a country. We are currently 145 so that's about 360 upwards should be on it

So if we get to 1 , we are basically shutting ourselves off from the world

What stupid metrics. Who are these people on the advisory board? We need names as this impacts lives.

09-04-2021 05:11PM

Darwin wrote: »

Removing countries is absolutely crucial as they get their case numbers down, but I have my doubts this shower will do anything of the sort. I would be delighted to be proved wrong.

I do not believe that countries will be removed until well after the summer, if this year at all. I would love to be proven wrong but I agree with Leo when he says that its much harder to take countries off than add them on

I would not be surprised to see hotel quarantine from mainland UK in coming days. And some policing of the border to try to identify travellers using that route

faceman · 09-04-2021 05:11PM

zebastein wrote: »

Question: We are afraid of the variants under the bed but why do we think that these variants are worse than the irish variant ?
As far as I know we have been told that the variant that is in Ireland is "a new virus" (MM) which is up to 90% (George Lee) more deadly than the one that we had in 2020.

So if I go to France next week and I come back, don't I have more chance to bring a variant which is better than the ultra deadly irish variant that prevents us to reopen after the lockdown ?

It is time to have some consistency in this country. Either we have the worse variant ever that prevents us any lifting of restrictions and in this case there is little risk that something worse comes from elsewhere, either the UK variant is actually not that bad and we reopen this country.

What is crazy is that if I catch the covid today, I am asked to self isolate in my home and nobody controls it (ok this goverment trust its people, fair enough). But if I go to France next week to get married and come back with a negative PCR test, I cannot self isolate in my home anymore (it seems that I become a foreigner that cannot be trusted anymore). This inconsistency drives me mad, you become a second class citizen as soon as you take a plane.

Or the cases who are confirmed daily in Ireland, in their hundreds, never a mention about variants as if it’s irrelevant and they’re under no enforcement of quarantine

SusanC10 · 09-04-2021 05:15PM

wcooba wrote: »

Israeli nurse takes things to court on the grounds of unlawful (disproportionate) detention:
https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/woman-with-two-negative-covid-teststakes-court-challenge-to-irish-hotel-quarantine-40294902.html

Good for her - hope she gets the decision overturned.

ninebeanrows · 09-04-2021 05:15PM

faceman wrote: »

Or the cases who are confirmed daily in Ireland, in their hundreds, never a mention about variants as if it’s irrelevant and they’re under no enforcement of quarantine

This is the biggest joke of all.......mention doing any oversight of COVID positives in Ireland and you are met with outrage and human rights etc.....Yet an Irish citizen in the EU cannot freely travel to quarantine at home in Ireland but is placed in enforced incarceration managed by the Defence Forces.

It is such a joke and I hope that somebody with good Lawyers and lots of money puts pressure on this government

fm · 09-04-2021 05:16PM

ninebeanrows wrote: »

So if we get to 1 , we are basically shutting ourselves off from the world

What stupid metrics. Who are these people on the advisory board? We need names as this impacts lives.

Yep, remember our Green List last year when any country with a rate less than us would be green, then when our rate started climbing they didn't bother updating the list

Responder XY · 09-04-2021 05:17PM

SusanC10 wrote: »

Good for her - hope she gets the decision overturned.

Fingers crossed - can't see how she won't be successful here. See in the article they seem to be trying to argue she's not being detained by anyone! That's really a grasping at straws defence!

themacattack. · 09-04-2021 05:17PM

faceman wrote: »

It’s expected that 10 countries will be added to MHQ list next week including Germany and France. No leak on other EU countries but I *think* Italy is no longer in consideration

its funny to think that last summer when we didnt have vaccines and we knew less about covid that flying was relativley straight forward...very depressing for those of us who love travel...also i cant understand how there was an almighty barney between government departments over adding more countries with simon coveney and dome features donnelly apparently at loggerheads...suddenly its all ok and they are singing off the same hymn sheet...whats changed and what was promised to pacify those against adding more countries...

SusanC10 · 09-04-2021 05:17PM

fm wrote: »

Yep, remember our Green List last year when any country with a rate less than us would be green, then when our rate started climbing they didn't bother updating the list

Yes, the way that our Government managed the List last year is really what has me worried about this MHQ.

saabsaab · 09-04-2021 05:18PM

faceman wrote: »

Or the cases who are confirmed daily in Ireland, in their hundreds, never a mention about variants as if it’s irrelevant and they’re under no enforcement of quarantine

Of course it's important within the country but much harder to do once it takes off here. Hence the importance of keeping it out in the first place.

themacattack. · 09-04-2021 05:22PM

wcooba wrote: »

Israeli nurse takes things to court on the grounds of unlawful (disproportionate) detention:
https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/woman-with-two-negative-covid-teststakes-court-challenge-to-irish-hotel-quarantine-40294902.html

delighted...hopefully this poor woman gets a logical outcome to an illogical irish clusterf*uck of a problem...id love to see donnelly eat humble pie on this

Lmkrnr · 09-04-2021 05:25PM

themacattack. wrote: »

delighted...hopefully this poor woman gets a logical outcome to an illogical irish clusterf*uck of a problem...id love to see donnelly eat humble pie on this

Its good to see it being appealed. We needed someone with a few quid to hire lawyer's not two skanks.

zebastein · 09-04-2021 05:27PM

ninebeanrows wrote: »

Yet an Irish citizen in the EU cannot freely travel to quarantine at home in Ireland but is placed in enforced incarceration managed by the Defence Forces.

For me that is the key if you want to go in court. There are two types of quarantine (at home vs. in hotel) for the same people (irish residents), for the same risk (risk of covid transmission in the community). If the quarantine at home is enough for irish residents in one case, there is no reason that it is not enough in the other case. Except if you make the assumption that people will break the law and not respect the quarantine, but I don't think you can take decisions based on hypothesis that law will not be respected.

The israeli nurse goes in court and tries to play the cards of the illegal detention, the "I did not know before", and the "disproportionate" card (vaccination = lower risk). That is possible that she wins, but difficult to prove that it is disproportionate because there is a subjective element when you evaluate the risk. My view is that she'd better ask the same treatment for everyone (every covid positive in hotel, or evere quarantine at home).

Responder XY · 09-04-2021 05:29PM

zebastein wrote: »

For me that is the key if you want to go in court. There are two types of quarantine (at home vs. in hotel) for the same people (irish residents), for the same risk (risk of covid transmission in the community). If the quarantine at home is enough for irish residents in one case, there is no reason that it is not enough in the other case. Except if you make the assumption that people will break the law and not respect the quarantine, but I don't think you can take decisions based on hypothesis that law will not be respected.

The israeli nurse goes in court and tries to play the cards of the illegal detention, the "I did not know before", and the "disproportionate" card (vaccination = lower risk). That is possible that she wins, but difficult to prove that it is disproportionate because there is a subjective element when you evaluate the risk. My view is that she'd better ask the same treatment for everyone (every covid positive in hotel, or evere quarantine at home).

Did she come from Israel though? I would think there's a solid case that Israel does not have a high risk profile and should note be on the list. Without a robust set of criteria for determining who goes on the list, the whole process is very flawed.

Wallander · 09-04-2021 05:30PM

themacattack. wrote: »

delighted...hopefully this poor woman gets a logical outcome to an illogical irish clusterf*uck of a problem...id love to see donnelly eat humble pie on this

The rush to massively expand this quarantine list seems really weird in the context of mounting legal challenges - almost like they're at the roulette table and desperately throwing all their chips at it.

Also I remember the talk for a long time was about it needed to be a two-island quarantine solution. What the hell happened to that? A few days it lasted till Ireland went off on a mad solo run!

faceman · 09-04-2021 05:30PM

zebastein wrote: »

For me that is the key if you want to go in court. There are two types of quarantine (at home vs. in hotel) for the same people (irish residents), for the same risk (risk of covid transmission in the community). If the quarantine at home is enough for irish residents in one case, there is no reason that it is not enough in the other case. Except if you make the assumption that people will break the law and not respect the quarantine, but I don't think you can take decisions based on hypothesis that law will not be respected.

The israeli nurse goes in court and tries to play the cards of the illegal detention, the "I did not know before", and the "disproportionate" card (vaccination = lower risk). That is possible that she wins, but difficult to prove that it is disproportionate because there is a subjective element when you evaluate the risk. My view is that she'd better ask the same treatment for everyone (every covid positive in hotel, or evere quarantine at home).

I wonder how relevant disproportionate is if it’s argued confirmed cases aren’t detained for quarantine

ninebeanrows · 09-04-2021 05:32PM

Wallander wrote: »

The rush to massively expand this quarantine list seems really weird in the context of mounting legal challenges - almost like they're at the roulette table and desperately throwing all their chips at it.

Also I remember the talk for a long time was about it needed to be a two-island quarantine solution. What the hell happened to that? A few days it lasted till Ireland went off on a mad solo run!

It is simply a throw to appease the Twitter mob and gain Donnelly some vital plaudits from them before he gets swallowed, they reckon it might buy him a few weeks and by then the situation regarding vaccines may have improved.

Lmkrnr · 09-04-2021 05:34PM

faceman wrote: »

I wonder how relevant disproportionate is if it’s argued confirmed cases aren’t detained for quarantine

We (Ireland) are not going for a zero covid approach. So what's the point locking people up and forcing them to pay.

SusanC10 · 09-04-2021 05:38PM

http://www.rte.ie/news/coronavirus/2021/0409/1208892-mandatory-hotel-quarantine/

RTE reporting Thomas Byrne TD as saying adding of EU to MHQ List will be temporary.

Alast · 09-04-2021 05:40PM

My wife is flying home through France on Sunday (she had to travel for a family death)

Do we reckon that (potential) EU countries MHQ will already be enforced by then?

zebastein · 09-04-2021 05:41PM

I am wondering if you can plead that the hotel quarantine is less safe than your home and that you can catch the covid in the hotel itself (staff gets tested positive), whereas you have no risk at home because you are not forced to get in contact with staff/security.

Australia got issues where people coming in the hotel were contaminating people who were at the end of their quarantine period.

Kramer · 09-04-2021 05:41PM

SusanC10 wrote: »

RTE reporting Thomas Byrne TD as saying adding of EU to MHQ List will be temporary.

Of course it will, just 2 weeks to flatten the curve :rolleyes:.

Hellrazer · 09-04-2021 05:43PM

ninebeanrows wrote: »

It is simply a throw to appease the Twitter mob and gain Donnelly some vital plaudits from them before he gets swallowed, they reckon it might buy him a few weeks and by then the situation regarding vaccines may have improved.

Poor Stephen - he was on Newstalk this morning giving out how he was being abused by the public and it being more personal.

Does he not realise how hated he is as a minister? And doesn't do himself any favours by adding our important trading partners ie EU and US to his solo run mandatory quarantine list??

Hes an idiot and should never have been given the Ministry hes in charge of.
His personal solo run with adding these countries will destroy our economy.

Id say hes walking around the Dail like the king of the hill after spineless Coveney backing down and giving in to him.

Are we there yet? Your second Travel Megathread (threadbans in OP}

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