What exactly is happening with AstraZeneca?

09-04-2021 09:06AM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

The risk is still minuscule, if they decide this vaccine inst appropriate for a particular group, its not that is dangerous, just carries a slight increased risk. and even so, if you are feeling ok a week after you will be grand

So let those who want to take that risk take it. I wont, I already cancelled my appointment for today. If that puts me at the back of the line or to my age group so be it.

09-04-2021 09:11AM

Living Off The Splash wrote: »

Does the blood clot know what age you are?

Why are younger aged people more likely to get a blood clot?

If you are 56 years of age you are OK but if you are 54 you are at risk?

The majority of cases appear to be in younger to middle aged groups, ranging from around 20 to 50. Though there have been some cases up to 63, it's much less common than in younger groups. Also in the older age groups, the risk of harm from covid is significantly higher than the risk from the vaccine.

The justification for the age 30 cut off in the UK is not because a 25 year old is at higher risk than a 35 year old from a clot, but because the younger you are the lower the risk of serious harm from covid. It's also to do with the UK's specific supply issues, they are far too reliant on AZ to impose a similar age cut off to other countries. It would stop their rollout in its tracks.

Miike · 09-04-2021 09:16AM

Flying Fox wrote: »

The majority of cases appear to be in younger to middle aged groups, ranging from around 20 to 50. Though there have been some cases up to 63, it's much less common than in younger groups. Also in the older age groups, the risk of harm from covid is significantly higher than the risk from the vaccine.

The justification for the age 30 cut off in the UK is not because a 25 year old is at higher risk than a 35 year old from a clot, but because the younger you are the lower the risk of serious harm from covid. It's also to do with the UK's specific supply issues, they are far too reliant on AZ to impose a similar age cut off to other countries. It would stop their rollout in its tracks.

The UK is vaccinating most people now. Currently in Ireland the AZ vaccine is being used in at risk categories (medically vulnerable) and healthcare workers. The medically vulnerable group would have significantly higher risk of adverse outcomes following COVID19 infection, so the vaccine is certainly worth it for those identified as such in Ireland cohort 4. I think a lot of people have lost sight of that on this side of the Irish Sea

stephenjmcd · 09-04-2021 09:20AM

Flying Fox wrote: »

but it should be possible to rebook them for a different vaccine a week or two later than their original appointment.

You think if someone refuses AZ then they'll get a different vaccine within a week or two ? Absolutely no chance your looking at months

It's been explained on this thread and others to you how supply is already earmarked for categories. If someone turns down a vaccine they'll be waiting until others ahead of them are done who that dose of another vaccine is already earmarked for.

If someone is genuinely at risk and can't take AZ for whatever reason they should discuss is with their GP and go through the proper channels, refusing a vaccine doesn't get you another one for a week or twos time it might for someone in cohort 4 given the risk of them not being vaccinated and them having genuine medical conditions that mean AZ might not be suitable for them, but when age rollout begins, you'll be able to register and you'll get your apointment, it's a straightforward yes or no to accept the apointment

josip · 09-04-2021 09:25AM

Miike wrote: »

The UK is vaccinating most people now. Currently in Ireland the AZ vaccine is being used in at risk categories (medically vulnerable) and healthcare workers. The medically vulnerable group would have significantly higher risk of adverse outcomes following COVID19 infection, so the vaccine is certainly worth it for those identified as such in Ireland cohort 4. I think a lot of people have lost sight of that on this side of the Irish Sea

This would be a no-brainer if there weren't other vaccines in existence that have less risk associated with them for a particular age group.
If some people in that age group were able to and preferred to continue shielding until August until they can get an alternative, that would certainly be worth it for them.

Miike · 09-04-2021 09:45AM

josip wrote: »

This would be a no-brainer if there weren't other vaccines in existence that have less risk associated with them for a particular age group.
If some people in that age group were able to and preferred to continue shielding until August until they can get an alternative, that would certainly be worth it for them.

And if people choose to wait, more power to them. I hope they remain safe for that period and they get the vaccine they want when the time comes

09-04-2021 09:45AM

stephenjmcd wrote: »

You think if someone refuses AZ then they'll get a different vaccine within a week or two ? Absolutely no chance your looking at months.

It's been explained on this thread and others to you how supply is already earmarked for categories. If someone turns down a vaccine they'll be waiting until others ahead of them are done who that dose of another vaccine is already earmarked for.

If someone is genuinely at risk and can't take AZ for whatever reason they should discuss is with their GP and go through the proper channels, refusing a vaccine doesn't get you another one for a week or twos time it might for someone in cohort 4 given the risk of them not being vaccinated but when age rollout begins, you'll be able to register and you'll get your apointment, it's a straightforward yes or no to accept the apointment.

We're talking about a scenario where we apply an age cut off to AZ, not people refusing vaccines.

I believe that it makes sense for people in cohort 4 to take the vaccine, as for them the benefit clearly outweighs the risk. But I can understand the worry and the frustration when other countries have taken clear decisions on this. Especially for people who have a history of clots, blood disorders, strokes, etc, either in themselves or their families.

Widdensushi · 09-04-2021 09:55AM

Miike wrote: »

And if people choose to wait, more power to them. I hope they remain safe for that period and they get the vaccine they want when the time comes

It's not as simple as that, their choice to turn down a vaccine could lead to them spreading the virus, possibly causing the deaths of others. We will have alot more information before the vaccine is widely available for people under thirty here, anyone in that age group that gets the opportunity to get vaccinated at the moment is higher risk for one reason or another so should be taking it.

Miike · 09-04-2021 10:02AM

Widdensushi wrote: »

It's not as simple as that, their choice to turn down a vaccine could lead to them spreading the virus, possibly causing the deaths of others. We will have alot more information before the vaccine is widely available for people under thirty here, anyone in that age group that gets the opportunity to get vaccinated at the moment is higher risk for one reason or another so should be taking it.

If you read my comment prior to that one you'll see you just repeated what I've said. I'm just not interested in getting into one of those debates on here, they never go anywhere bar ending up getting called a "HSE shill" or something along a similar vein. So its better just nod and agree, nothing i post on here is going to change the minds of people who speak only outrage and negativity.

Their choice to refuse a vaccine mean it trickles down the sequence, the vaccine doesn't evaporate into thin air when they refuse it. There are plenty of people who are wholly satisfied to take AZ.

josip · 09-04-2021 10:05AM

Widdensushi wrote: »

It's not as simple as that, their choice to turn down a vaccine could lead to them spreading the virus, possibly causing the deaths of others. We will have alot more information before the vaccine is widely available for people under thirty here, anyone in that age group that gets the opportunity to get vaccinated at the moment is higher risk for one reason or another so should be taking it.

I don't think that's correct.
If they turn down the vaccine, someone else will get it instead.
So at a population level, which is what you're talking about, there has been no increase in risk.

09-04-2021 10:07AM

mick087 wrote: »

Then please take yours self out the queue and let me and my family take your place.

If you had bothered to read my post before you would see I alreasldy did ðŸ™„.

robinph · 09-04-2021 10:11AM

Living Off The Splash wrote: »

Does the blood clot know what age you are?

Why are younger aged people more likely to get a blood clot?

If you are 56 years of age you are OK but if you are 54 you are at risk?

Not certain yet if the risk of blood clots is entirely down to age. A 59 year old man died over the weekend from the blood clot issue and his sister was all over the UK media yesterday saying that getting the jabs was still the right thing to do.

What is definitely known about risks with age is that younger people are at less risk from covid, so the current policy in the UK for under 30s to be given the option of something else is based on that. If the jab and covid present the same risk to an under 30 then switch jabs, for a 50+ year old though covid is far bigger a risk, and for a 70+ year old several multiples more again.

The risk from clots varied slightly due to age, the risk from covid varies by... well a lot.

josip · 09-04-2021 10:28AM

AZ have agreed that the EU can keep most of the EU-made doses.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/apr/08/almost-all-dutch-made-astrazeneca-doses-will-stay-in-eu-says-brussels

dogbert27 · 09-04-2021 10:42AM

mick087 wrote: »

Then please take yours self out the queue and let me and my family take your place.

I find this passive aggressive response to a genuine health concern uncalled for.

Tyrone212 · 09-04-2021 10:43AM

Germany and now France are telling those under 55/60 to abandon their second AZ jab and use one of the other vaccines.

Living Off The Splash · 09-04-2021 10:50AM

Is there a medical reason why those over 55 are less likely to get a blood cloth from a vaccination. Is it an age thing, something in the blood, more sedentary lifestyle?

fin12 · 09-04-2021 10:52AM

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-9451351/J-J-vaccinations-paused-North-Carolina-site-18-people-adverse-reactions.html

Honestly I think all these vaccines are pure poison , probably living with the side affects of these for years to come ...

Il be going to my doctor Monday the latest cause I’ve literally got no other side affects except a headache

09-04-2021 10:56AM

stephenjmcd wrote: »

What i gathered from the post was people who decide not to take the vaccine should be given an appointment within a few weeks, which I disagree with and won't happen as mentioned, if I misinterpreted your post then apologies on that front.

Agree on cohort 4 there by the way,.benefits of vaccines (all those available) far outweigh the risk of rare side effects.

On your last paragraph, there's nothing aggressive there by the way, not intended to come across like that at all so I think that's uncalled for quite frankly if that's how you've interpreted the post. Someone can have a different viewpoint to yours & to mine and try to explain said view point, that isn't aggression. The repetitive nature of said discussion can be annoying but not aggressive.

There isn't belittling of the concerns on my part, for me it's quite clear to see there are issues linked to the vaccine but my opinion is that there are issues linked to all vaccines and medications so therefore one must put the risk in context. You have a different opinion, thats fine, that's the whole purpose of a discussion.

As for being impossible to implement here, I don't recall saying actions taken in other countries would be difficult to implement here.

What I take issue with is if someone refuses AZ (not based on medical grounds) and feels they are entitled to another vaccine within a short space of time, as I've said this isn't an a la carte, what's assigned for you is assigned based on clinical advise with your (the paitents) best interests at heart

On the first point, appreciate that, thanks. It's just frustrating as my words have been twisted a few times on here, but it probably has been LLMMLL moreso than yourself.

Saying "it's been explained to you before" comes across as condescending though and is giving the impression that I'm somehow lacking in comprehension. I'm not, I simply have a different view to you and I'd like to discuss it respectfully.

The implementation thing may have been more LLMMLL as well so apologies if I mixed you up.

In general I would agree that if someone refuses a vaccine they should go to the back of the queue. I'm not (as some are claiming) trying to pick and choose which vaccine I want. But there is a safety issue associated with one specific vaccine, serious enough to cause most of our peer countries to restrict it's use. So that does change the picture in my view.

stephenjmcd · 09-04-2021 10:58AM

Tyrone212 wrote: »

Germany and now France are telling those under 55/60 to abandon their second AZ jab and use one of the other vaccines.

Interesting pivot, I'm not aware of actual trials having been concluded yet that mix vaccines, open to correction though. It's not something I'd be personally comfortable doing without the trial data behind it.

robinph · 09-04-2021 10:58AM

Living Off The Splash wrote: »

Is there a medical reason why those over 55 are less likely to get a blood cloth from a vaccination. Is it an age thing, something in the blood, more sedentary lifestyle?

The numbers are too small to be able to say one age group is more likely to get blood clots than another.

The criteria for approving the vaccine for different ages is purely down to the risks of covid, for which there is plenty of data on age related risks.

09-04-2021 11:08AM

Are there are any specific risk factors of blood clots in brain and AZ?

History of blood clotting?
Women?
Sedentary lifestyle?

09-04-2021 11:12AM

Living Off The Splash wrote: »

Is there a medical reason why those over 55 are less likely to get a blood cloth from a vaccination. Is it an age thing, something in the blood, more sedentary lifestyle?

I saw a slide the other day that showed the breakdown of cases and deaths by age group, I think it was from either the MHRA or the EMA briefing during the week. I can't seem to locate it now though. The group worst affected were those in their 30s, followed by 20s and 40s (can't remember which order the last two were). After 50 the numbers dropped but there were still some cases.

Miike · 09-04-2021 11:13AM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Are there are any specific risk factors of blood clots in brain and AZ?

History of blood clotting?
Women?
Sedentary lifestyle?

As of right now no risk factors are identified. It appears to affect women more but the outcome group size it too small to confirm that hypothesis.

Turtwig · 09-04-2021 11:14AM

Christ can you imagine if this ends up linked to the adenoviral vectors itself?
Be interesting to see how the other viral vector vaccines perform when the administration increases to levels similar to AZ.

09-04-2021 11:18AM

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=vEg523BilxI

John Campbells thoughts.

He thinks theres a link between low platlettes, AZ and blood clots in brain. He said he would have taken it given his age and sex but got pfzier. Seemed quite smug about that. Seems quite a smug individual tbh. He can be hard enough to listen to but has a massive following in fairness.

noplacehere · 09-04-2021 11:22AM

Tyrone212 wrote: »

Germany and now France are telling those under 55/60 to abandon their second AZ jab and use one of the other vaccines.

How on earth would that work? There is no data on using different vaccines. MRNA are different to AstraZeneca right?

09-04-2021 11:24AM

Living Off The Splash wrote: »

Is there a medical reason why those over 55 are less likely to get a blood cloth from a vaccination. Is it an age thing, something in the blood, more sedentary lifestyle?

Just saw you posted your age group in another thread. For you the clotting risk is pretty much non existent, there have been no cases in that age range to date. So I think you can take AZ with confidence if that's the one offered to you. The risk of covid would be far greater.

09-04-2021 11:28AM

noplacehere wrote: »

How on earth would that work? There is no data on using different vaccines. MRNA are different to AstraZeneca right?

UK has dabbled in this and are trialling currently mixing them up.

i think its a good idea.

I would like a AZ with a dash of moderna.

Maybe even higher efficacy possibly.

Would prefer not to be guinea pig, but we are all going to be guinea pigs in next few months to a degree. Ill be happy when offered one.

astrofool · 09-04-2021 11:41AM

fin12 wrote: »

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-9451351/J-J-vaccinations-paused-North-Carolina-site-18-people-adverse-reactions.html

Honestly I think all these vaccines are pure poison , probably living with the side affects of these for years to come ...

Il be going to my doctor Monday the latest cause I’ve literally got no other side affects except a headache

I'm pretty sure this is sarcasm, there's a lot of tightly wound people on the thread who won't get it (and I'm sorry if this wasn't sarcasm).

astrofool · 09-04-2021 11:47AM

Turtwig wrote: »

Christ can you imagine if this ends up linked to the adenoviral vectors itself?
Be interesting to see how the other viral vector vaccines perform when the administration increases to levels similar to AZ.

It will be interesting to see if this is down to the makeup of the vaccine (i.e. the non vector parts, which I'd find unlikely), or down to the vector itself and the reaction to creating antibodies, in which case it would be highly likely that the person would be in a lot of trouble if they contracted SARS-COV2.

If it's the latter, then the people who are putting it off are really playing with fire, as the issue with clots can be treated and monitored for, if they contracted SARS-COV2 itself, then they'd likely be in an ICU fairly quickly.

If you are in the at risk group, and refusing AZ vaccine and going to the back of the queue, I would be extra vigilant about cocooning and distancing for the next 6 months.

edit: if it is the vector, then it also changes the risk profile, as it becomes a subset of the risk of developing severe COVID-19 anyway.

What exactly is happening with AstraZeneca?

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