What exactly is happening with AstraZeneca?

NeuralNetwork

Huge money invested is all relative to the cost of the pandemic to the EU economy both in terms of direct costs and opportunity costs. That's an absolutely vast sum. A few tens of billions on vaccines is really neither here nor there in the context of getting things back to normal sooner.

Wolf359f

stephenjmcd wrote: »

Agree with this post 100%

It's far from a lost cause, its an effective vaccine that is / will have a massive impact on illness, death & transmission.

As for Pfizer-BioNTech I think and I'm open to correction here that both the EU and Germany separately pumped a large amount of money into BioNTech for everything from R&D, upgrade of production lines to creation of new factories and production lines.

I've no problem taking the AZ shot. I know my risks unvaccinated. I smoke, I drink, I drive, I eat fast food. Once I know the risks with AZ and I weigh them up, I'll make that decision.
Would I prefer Pfizer or Moderna, yes, absolutely, but that's being picky.
I would have favored J&J (as it's a single jab) over AZ, but there's some investigations with J&J and the same clotting issues as AZ. At least there seems to be more data and more doses administered of AZ than J&J, so i'd actually feel more comfortable taking the AZ jab over the J&J one.

But the first one i'm offered, I'll gladly take, no hesitation at all.

stephenjmcd

Wolf359f wrote: »

I've no problem taking the AZ shot. I know my risks unvaccinated. I smoke, I drink, I drive, I eat fast food. Once I know the risks with AZ and I weigh them up, I'll make that decision.
Would I prefer Pfizer or Moderna, yes, absolutely, but that's being picky.
I would have favored J&J (as it's a single jab) over AZ, but there's some investigations with J&J and the same clotting issues as AZ. At least there seems to be more data and more doses administered of AZ than J&J, so i'd actually feel more comfortable taking the AZ jab over the J&J one.

But the first one i'm offered, I'll gladly take, no hesitation at all.

Well said.

Likewise will gladly take whatever one comes my way.

NeuralNetwork

Wolf359f wrote: »

Sorry, just when i hear someone angry about vaccines, I immediately assume they blame the government.

I wouldn't consider AZ a lost cause, it's an effective vaccine (J&J may have a similar fate in the EU, clotting issues, reduced deliveries). But any resources by the EU cannot be going just to fix AZ problems. Germany and I think the EU (it may have been just Germany) have really invested and pumped money into Biontech and Pfizer to boost production and it's looking like they will be a leader in the vaccine rollout, surpassing the US in production.

Which just demonstrates why we can't even have grown up discussions about these topics anymore. It's like there's a lockstep where anyone who critiques what is current policy gets put into some kind of 'trouble maker' category.

I don't appreciate the implication that I'm 'angry about vaccines'. What I'm annoyed about is that we clearly have solid, heavy lifting from Pfizer and BioNTech and we need to be leveraging that much more to just get it done.

Moderna is ramping up in Europe too and both of those vaccines have shown excellent results with relatively few problems.

If AstraZeneca can't deliver, whatever the reasons for that are I don't really care anymore, but they need to refocus on companies who can.

If it costs another €50 billion, it would still be far, far cheaper than all the economic disruption and chaos that we are dealing with at present. The reality of this is that we just cannot keep going like this for much longer without pretty dire economic implications.

The vaccine programmes need to be an absolute priority, pretty much almost on a war spending footing and whatever needs to be paid for needs to just be paid for.

I mean add up extra months of no travel, closed businesses, disruption, needs for bailouts and stimulus packages and you're getting into multiple trillions for the EU or US scale of economies.

The vaccines, even at higher prices are pocket change in comparison.

Strazdas

The risks with J & J seem somewhat smaller for now. Only four cases of blood clots detected in the US so far - I think 12.5m doses have been given up until now.

Wolf359f

NeuralNetwork wrote: »

Which just demonstrates why we can't even have grown up discussions about these topics anymore. It's like there's a lockstep where anyone who critiques what is current policy gets put into some kind of 'trouble maker' category.

I don't appreciate the implication that I'm 'angry about vaccines'. What I'm annoyed about is that we clearly have solid, heavy lifting from Pfizer and BioNTech and we need to be leveraging that much more to just get it done.

Moderna is ramping up in Europe too and both of those vaccines have shown excellent results with relatively few problems.

If AstraZeneca can't deliver, whatever the reasons for that are I don't really care anymore, but they need to refocus on companies who can.

You are missing the point that Pfizer has scaled up massively, we're taking about 10x what they expected and a lot of that is down to the EU with funding and help. Pfizer never planned to be producing over 1 billion doses from their EU plants. The EU is focusing on Pfizer, they have invested in them and not like the US who just want their population vaccinated and the hell with everyone else.

Wolf359f

Strazdas wrote: »

The risks with J & J seem somewhat smaller for now. Only four cases of blood clots detected in the US so far - I think 12.5m doses have been given up until now.

I think it's a lot less than 12.5 mil, that could be whats delivered.
I believe the issue is with 2 states saw adverse reactions (which maybe different than the AZ issue) but now it's 4 states suspending it.
Kinda like Norway seeing a higher rate than the rest of Europe.
So it's definitely a concern or something to investigate.

murphaph

Wolf359f wrote: »

I've no problem taking the AZ shot. I know my risks unvaccinated. I smoke, I drink, I drive, I eat fast food. Once I know the risks with AZ and I weigh them up, I'll make that decision.
Would I prefer Pfizer or Moderna, yes, absolutely, but that's being picky.
I would have favored J&J (as it's a single jab) over AZ, but there's some investigations with J&J and the same clotting issues as AZ. At least there seems to be more data and more doses administered of AZ than J&J, so i'd actually feel more comfortable taking the AZ jab over the J&J one.

But the first one i'm offered, I'll gladly take, no hesitation at all.

Same. I'd take the J&J but the AZ data set is much larger and from many more countries. I think we have a better handle on the risk/benefit of AZ. I think my risk of death is a good deal lower from the AZ vaccine than the disease. I wouldn't give my kids the AZ shot though. The risk is too high relative to the benefit. They can wait for an mRNA vaccine.

Enzokk

For those asking about new advice for AZ, seems like it will happen early next week from NIAC,

These vaccination plans however, could be impacted by new advice about the use of the AstraZeneca vaccine from the National Immunisation Advisory Committee due early next week.

GPs to vaccinate medically vulnerable aged between 16 and 69

Enzokk

Enzokk wrote: »

For those asking about new advice for AZ, seems like it will happen early next week from NIAC,



GPs to vaccinate medically vulnerable aged between 16 and 69

Early next week? They really are taking their time.

Moonbeam

03:15 Researchers have shown a connection Researchers at Oslo University Hospital (OUS) and the University Hospital of Northern Norway (UNN) have shown a connection between AstraZeneca's coronary vaccine and severe blood clots, low blood platelets and bleeding. On Friday afternoon, the case was published in The New England Journal of Medicine.
A total of eleven medical professionals have been involved in Norway. Chief physician and professor Pål André Holme at Rikshospitalet has led the work. The researchers have chosen to call the condition "vaccine-induced immune thrombotic thrombocytopenia", writes Aftenposten .

11:42 Found sky-high level of antibodies Extreme levels of antibodies are the cause of the serious side effects some people get from the AstraZeneca vaccine, a new Norwegian study concludes. Chief physician Ingvild Sørvoll at UNN in Tromsø says such a high level of antibodies has never before been described in the wake of a vaccination. Researchers still do not know what in the vaccine triggers the condition.

More new news about AZ vaccine, I think that maybe we are seeing more side effects with it as it has had such high use. I am hoping for Moderna but I think I would consider any of them.

Dyr

Wolf359f wrote: »

The initial government estimates for vaccine deliveries were conservative.
Then Denmark would announce they will offer a shot to everyone by X date.
Irish public get enraged.
Irish government re-do estimate using more optimistic estimate for vaccine deliveries and it looks good, public like it (of course the public say the HSE can't jab that fast)
AZ reduce deliveries, Government revise timetable, public react with anger at government.....

Can't ****ing win.

Our government cant win, the UK, Hungary, Serbia, the US, and Israel can.

It must be the Irish publics fault though, somehow.

murphaph

Bambi wrote: »

Our government cant win, the UK, Hungary, Serbia, the US, and Israel can.

It must be the Irish publics fault though, somehow.

If we go it alone in vaccines we can't expect EU solidarity in our dealings with the UK over Northern Ireland.

If we went it alone we'd be buying unapproved vaccines.

Israel is a special case. Anyone who doesn't understand why a German developed vaccine wouldn't be held back from Israel needs to read a history book.

I think you need to realistically appraise our position in the pecking order. I very much doubt we'd have received so much mRNA vaccine if we'd done a solo run.

I know you hate the EU but production is massively ramping up after AZ stiffed us to the benefit of the UK. If they'd shared the shortfalls pro rata, the UK would be in the same place as us right now.

Be glad you belong to the EU. The oil tanker is moving now and it's got 95 octane on board ;-)

RobMc59

Interesting post which puts the controversy over the AZ vaccine into context imo.
https://twitter.com/keirshiels/status/1379823534411804681?s=19

Stark

RobMc59 wrote: »

Interesting post which puts the controversy over the AZ vaccine into context imo.
https://twitter.com/keirshiels/status/1379823534411804681?s=19

Cue "if men had to take the pill, blah blah".

It's not comparing like for like (if the pill had a 0.6% chance of fatal cerebral blood clots, we'd be hearing a lot more about it) and his figure for AZ looks completely wrong.

Dyr

murphaph wrote: »

If we go it alone in vaccines we can't expect EU solidarity in our dealings with the UK over Northern Ireland.

If we went it alone we'd be buying unapproved vaccines.

I don't think you know what solidarity means. It doesn't mean "Do as you're told not matter how disastrous or we'll punish you". I know that was the EU approach to us in 2008 and 2010 but you'd think we'd learn that its not the basis to run a country on, being afraid to act in your interest in case it invokes the wrath of the greater power. Interesting to see people with that sort of outlook cosplaying as Republicans . The Commission have already shown what they think of us and NI, that charade was dropped like a shot when they had their temper tantrum over vaccine exports.

The Hungarians have gone it alone. The Germans went it alone at the very start and are now opening negotiations with Russia for Sputnik regardless of the Europeans Commissions boasts that they don't need a Russian vaccine. The Austrians already have their order in. They've already decided that the EUs program is a ****show and its time to start hedging their bets

And here we are, the largest pharmaceutical sector in Europe that couldnt leverage any influence. Hopefully we get a european gold star to make up for our economy being left in ribbons. Again.

I know you hate the EU but production is massively ramping up after AZ stiffed us to the benefit of the UK.

Two errors in one sentence, fair play.

murphaph

If the Germans had really gone it alone nobody else in the EU would have any Biontech.

odyssey06

murphaph wrote: »

If the Germans had really gone it alone nobody else in the EU would have any Biontech.

And after the PPE debacle I wouldn't want to trust solely to the HSE to procure the vaccines in a global marketplace...

BorneTobyWilde

They say 30 percent are asymptomatic, that's a lot of people vaccinated naturally. Giving Astrazeneca to people with antibodies is system overload and could be leading to blood clots.

Strazdas

BorneTobyWilde wrote: »

They say 30 percent are asymptomatic, that's a lot of people vaccinated naturally. Giving Astrazeneca to people with antibodies is system overload and could be leading to blood clots.

Would a straightforward antibody test solve that problem?

brickster69

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

Tell that to 70000 and their families in uk who needlessly died (if compared our death rates, more if Germany)

You sound like a bit of a twisted person to me.

Ireland and the UK have done well considering they got hit before Christmas with that wave from hell and had no protection.

Meanwhile Europe had plenty of time to get those most at risk vaccinated. 85% of deaths come from those over 70 years of age.

France is currently having 70+ per day deaths in care homes of people over 85.

Poland are currently trying to sell 1.3 million AZ vaccines to the Ukraine despite having 700 deaths a day.

They had time but played politics whereas we had none.

UK now has 12 European countries above it for death rates per population and is 38th in the world for cases per population.

We will see what the figures are at the end of all this.

odyssey06

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

Tell that to 70000 and their families in uk who needlessly died (if compared our death rates, more if Germany)

A team in sports can be good at offence (vaccines) and poor at defence (restrictions).

This has nothing to do with Astrazeneca vaccine so whatever point you think you are trying to make is neither here nor there.

Danzy

Much of the continent has let vaccine skepticism and disbelief influence support for Vaccine development, purchase and rollout.

Putting Ursula in charge Of such an important task was also foolhardy, her track record speaks for itself.

For countries like Germany and France and others in the EU, Covid will be a problem for many months to come.

The EU and European countries should have taken it seriously, they did not and now have to deal with the consequences.

brickster69

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

Europeans got hit hard before both uk and Ireland, yet Tories really screwed up the response leading to all those needless deaths and creating a breeding ground for the Kent variant

Yes uk are doing well (mostly due to vaccines made in Europe and which shouldn’t have been exported from Europe) but it doesn’t wash the Boris government of the blood on their hands.

What needless deaths are you mumbling on about. The people in the UK will be out back to work, shopping and enjoying a pint in the pub in a couple of days while the "plague continent" is locked up for the next couple of months. Have you seen the disaster going on over there.

astrofool

brickster69 wrote: »

What needless deaths are you mumbling on about. The people in the UK will be out back to work, shopping and enjoying a pint in the pub in a couple of days while the "plague continent" is locked up for the next couple of months. Have you seen the disaster going on over there.

Latest estimates are seeing both the EU and UK finishing vaccinations around the same month (July), UK is seeing a smaller supply in the weeks ahead (coincidentally at the same time as the EU stopped most exports to the UK from Halix). As you say, the continent is going through the 3rd wave that hit the UK and Ireland over Christmas and January, but have the advantage of most vulnerable already vaccinated so their overall death rate should be much lower per capita than what the UK hit (particularly in the western countries, some of the eastern countries are having a hard time of it because they tried to stay open through high case numbers).

Strazdas

brickster69 wrote: »

What needless deaths are you mumbling on about. The people in the UK will be out back to work, shopping and enjoying a pint in the pub in a couple of days while the "plague continent" is locked up for the next couple of months. Have you seen the disaster going on over there.

Many of them had a much lighter lockdown while the UK was closed for the last three months. Schools and universities have been open in many countries in Europe throughout, shops and stores open etc. It was only in mid March that things got worse.

brickster69

astrofool wrote: »

Latest estimates are seeing both the EU and UK finishing vaccinations around the same month (July), UK is seeing a smaller supply in the weeks ahead (coincidentally at the same time as the EU stopped most exports to the UK from Halix). As you say, the continent is going through the 3rd wave that hit the UK and Ireland over Christmas and January, but have the advantage of most vulnerable already vaccinated so their overall death rate should be much lower per capita than what the UK hit (particularly in the western countries, some of the eastern countries are having a hard time of it because they tried to stay open through high case numbers).

Yes, because the UK prioritized those at the most risk of dying. Italy has 60% of over 80's still not vaccinated and have been giving jabs to footballers, lawyers and teachers. Spain are getting the sunbeds wiped down now hoping for a tourist season to start after welcoming 300,000 Germans on holiday over Easter. UK and Ireland saw what that variant can do and we know how long it takes to go

brickster69

Strazdas wrote: »

Many of them had a much lighter lockdown while the UK was closed for the last three months. Schools and universities have been open in many countries in Europe throughout, shops and stores open etc. It was only in mid March that things got worse.

It was only mid March that they understood they were ravaged you mean. France reported first cases in the first week of January now look at it. At least Uk and Ireland took the decision to go into lockdown as it happened.

astrofool

brickster69 wrote: »

Yes, because the UK prioritized those at the most risk of dying. Italy has 60% of over 80's still not vaccinated and have been giving jabs to footballers, lawyers and teachers. Spain are getting the sunbeds wiped down now hoping for a tourist season to start after welcoming 300,000 Germans on holiday over Easter. UK and Ireland saw what that variant can do and we know how long it takes to go

Well, we can judge all the countries on deaths per capita at the end to see who was most and least successful...

brickster69

astrofool wrote: »

Well, we can judge all the countries on deaths per capita at the end to see who was most and least successful...

It's the only way to judge things. As it stands at the moment i would doubt the UK will be in the top 20 for deaths and top 30 for cases per population in Europe, and that is with testing twice as many people than aside from Russia. About time you started saying how bad the " plague continent" is doing to be fair.