What exactly is happening with AstraZeneca?

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

Your point is a strawman which distracts from a dangerous side effect in the section of population at smallest risk of Covid. False equivalence, these vaccines are not Paracetamol.

Again you miss that point completely on the assessment of risk so I won't bother going around in circles here, it's like banging my head off a brick wall, when you've an issue with comprehension. One for the ignore list. Good luck

Wolf359f wrote: »

Countries like Australia and NZ, basically any zero covid country will have the same issues, especially with take-up and of course when they try to reopen their borders.
It has to be sold as take the vaccine to reopen the borders and you can travel, as apposed to here where it's get vaccinated to protect yourself and others.

Relatives in NZ are extremely anti taking a vaccine. "Why would we need to, we haven't got covid here". And the travel argument doesn't win them over, particularly as there has been some talk of a travel agreement with Australia - and for most of them, that's as far as they would go. We had a bit of a row with my MIL as we tried to make her understand that without re-opening borders (and therefore a vaccinated population) she wouldn't be able to see her grandchildren any time soon.

fly_agaric wrote: »

Ah now you're a bit of a mad lad/contrarian wanting Sputnik vaccine so badly yet fearing to take AstraZeneca.
It does not seem rational, but I suppose (assuming you are serious) some people like to go for the mystery prize.

Russia is an autocratic state which is not transparent. In Russia/China you can expect that equivalents of our regulators, the health service etc. (and scientists too) will be captured and beholden to the political system. That reduces my trust in what they say about their vaccines.

Their vaccine is in use in poorer non Western countries with...I'd expect not so good health services compared to the Western European countries that have managed to pick up on a very infrequently occuring potential problem with AZ vaccine in a small cohort of people.

Sputnik has not been through an approval process yet in the likes of EU/US/UK/Japan etc. either.

If it passes through that successfully (same as the other ones that have already been approved) I would not have any problem taking it but would prefer it was manufactured locally (in the EU) if that happens.

I never said that I wanted the Sputnik vaccine "so badly" I said that I would take it if it was available over the AZ vaccine because of its growing quality and supply issues. I also said that I would take the Pfizer or Moderna over the AZ vaccine too for the same reason. If you are OK with taking the AZ vaccine then go for it. You can even have mine (if its offered to me).


It always amuses me how people can point the finger at Russia or China being less transparent while the US jails whistleblowers for decades for reporting war crimes. Western governments also have no problems doing business with the likes of the Saudis when it suits them despite them being one of the most brutal regimes on the planet.



Also, where were our health service and regulators recently when 18 women died of cervical cancer despite been given a clean bill of health? Our health service is far from perfect and we are certainly not in any position to to go looking down our nose and pointing the finger at others.


The German government has recently announced that it is due to start negotiations with Russia to be supplied with the Sputnik vaccine if it is approved by the EMA (Germany also has no problems buying gas from this supposedly evil state despite protests from the US) France and Italy have also declared their interest in Sputnik. So again, if it is made available here then I would have no problem taking it. (or any other vaccine without the issues surrounding AZ)



The AZ vaccine has gone from

1. Its working grand and has passed all of its trials
2. We can now take orders from countries who wish to be supplied with the AZ jab

3. Some people in Norway had problems but that had nothing to do with the AZ vaccine
4. OK those people in Norway may have had problems related to the AZ jab (suspended in some countries)
5. Hey just plough along with the AZ vaccine, it's not like anybody has died. Its just some clotting.
6. Ok, some people have died

7. Ah but sure the benefits outweigh the risks so keep going.
8. Actually wait, we cant even really supply the countries who have ordered it from us.


Now why would I bother with a vaccine like the AZ one when there are alternatives out there with far less issues.


If you are happy enough to use AZ despite its growing amount of issues then fair enough. That's your choice and good luck with it.


I am not happy to use AZ. That is my choice.

The clandestine exports of UK sourced AZ (was it made in the UK or just routed through the UK after manufacture in the EU?) to Australia are not a "good thing" for the UK's image at all at all. They allowed these exports at a time they were telling us their contract trumped ours (did the Australian contract trump theirs or what?) and that they couldn't spare a single drop and indeed that they wanted more AZ from the EU plants (and India).

The UK and EU needed these doses much more than Australia at the time too.

The UK government and AZ have been working hand in glove to further the UK's interests in all this. You can be absolutely sure that Johnson discussed this directly with Morrison and that a quid pro quo is expected (favourable FTA perhaps?)

The UK Ambassador to Ireland not a week ago was telling us that the UK was far from having any spare vaccine.

Untrustworthy to their cores.

Strazdas wrote: »

NZ have rightly won praise for eliminating Covid but many observers have questioned how on earth they are going to extract themselves out of the pandemic. The country is completely shut down from the rest of the world with no travel or tourism allowed and no sign of this changing any time soon.

I was thinking about this.
Zero Covid is great if it can work.
But what happens when you need to open up your country and your population don't feel the need to vaccinate?
How can you open up an unvaccinated country while Covid-19 exists?

Lazy Bhoy wrote: »

I never said that I wanted the Sputnik vaccine "so badly" I said that I would take it if it was available over the AZ vaccine because of its growing quality and supply issues.

That is not a rational position. Sputnik is not approved in the EU yet.
It's not in great supply as far as I understand, so if it ever is approved would be interesting to see how that goes too.
As posted above, supply and these rows with manufacturers should be irrelevant to any individual's decision to take a vaccine when offered.
You have no basis whatsoever to compare the relative "quality" of Sputnik/AZ and come to conclusion you'd prefer Sputnik!

Lazy Bhoy wrote: »

It always amuses me how people can point the finger at Russia or China being less transparent while the US jails whistleblowers for decades for reporting war crimes. Western governments also have no problems doing business with the likes of the Saudis when it suits them despite them being one of the most brutal regimes on the planet.

This is completely irrelevant to the discussion in this thread. It amuses you - that's fine. I know this sort of whataboutism about the US/West is great fun, but maybe somewhere else is better for discussions of US foreign policy and the grubby global arms business + sale of weapons and instruments of repression to nasty people (which Russia/China are up to their necks in as well).

Lazy Bhoy wrote: »

Also, where were our health service and regulators recently when 18 women died of cervical cancer despite been given a clean bill of health? Our health service is far from perfect and we are certainly not in any position to to go looking down our nose and pointing the finger at others.

Again this is more whataboutism. It is the EMA first, and I suppose more widely the actions of US/UK etc. that the regulators and health service here will look to. To authorise the Sputnik, obtain supplies [from Russia?] + ensure they are good quality and safe (assuming it will not be made here/in the EU) and then get it into your arm for you, they will need to go do a fairly courageous solo run.
Given that health authorities here have not very competent at times (as you point out by referring to a past scandal) taking on a load of high risk tasks like that would worry me somewhat to say the least.

Lazy Bhoy wrote: »

Now why would I bother with a vaccine like the AZ one when there are alternatives out there with far less issues.

If you are happy enough to use AZ despite its growing amount of issues then fair enough. That's your choice and good luck with it.

I am not happy to use AZ. That is my choice.

Yes that is your choice. However Sputnik is not one of those "alternatives with far less issues".
AZ potentially has an issue which you've exaggerated to make a point.
AZs issue is very rare and seems it is quite hard even for countries with excellent health services + tracking of these problems to pin down exactly what is going on given the small numbers. It would never be seen in any trial. Sputnik is an unknown quantity as yet and therefore it is a gamble to prefer it over AZ.

Call me Al wrote: »

I was thinking about this.
Zero Covid is great if it can work.
But what happens when you need to open up your country and your population don't feel the need to vaccinate?
How can you open up an unvaccinated country while Covid-19 exists?

It's almost as if they are planning to wait until Covid-19 mostly 'dies down' in the world, but that could be years away.....maybe as much as four or five years. Have they given up on the idea of tourism to their country for the foreseeable?

robinph wrote: »

In fairness to the Pfizer vaccine, that update to the guidance was mostly changing the font to bold and putting it in a red box with some arrows pointing to it saying "Read this, it's very important". It had instructions about not giving to people with severe allergies from the start, but a couple of nurses carrying epi pens for some reason thought that didn't apply to them.

So now we all have to sit around for 15 minutes after the jab.

One of who had a previous allergic reaction to.........a vaccine

Strazdas wrote: »

NZ have rightly won praise for eliminating Covid but many observers have questioned how on earth they are going to extract themselves out of the pandemic. The country is completely shut down from the rest of the world with no travel or tourism allowed and no sign of this changing any time soon.

I think they can live with it for quite some time.
If there's a real need for someone to travel there they can still do it I think.

Setting aside the deaths and disease from Covid-19 they've avoided...it was far preferable to sacrifice the sector completely than try and maintain it and spread the damage to ruin large parts of your society/economy (position we are in).

It is also still not yet certain that vaccines alone will get us fully out of this in Europe and back to life as it was pre-pandemic. Travel/foreign tourism sectors here are decimated anyway despite fact we did not close borders in the way Asian countries did.

Ironically it's also a sector that really has to be trimmed down rather than continually grown each year given the environmental problems facing the planet.