COVID-19: Vaccine and testing procedures Megathread Part 3 - Read OP

stefanovich · 08-04-2021 11:40AM

stephenjmcd wrote: »

Their own version of our HPRA says what they've received in the vials isn't the same as what the data has been submitted for.

This is being strongly refuted. Are you sure of your facts?

stephenjmcd · 08-04-2021 11:42AM

stefanovich wrote: »

This is being strongly refuted. Are you sure of your facts?

Sure of my facts... feel free to give it a Google there, plenty of articles going around.

By strongly refuted are you referencing that the reply was "enemies of Sputnik V in Slovakia".... yeah thats a strong rebuttal when someone says what you've supplied them isn't what they expected.

"The Slovak State Institute for Drugs Control cannot adopt an expert stance on the ratio of benefits and risks surrounding the Sputnik V vaccine without sufficient evidence, and it is missing such evidence due to incomplete data from the manufacturer and the inconsistency of individual batches"

astrofool · 08-04-2021 11:46AM

PhoenixParker wrote: »

AZ has a 12 week dosing interval and we only started using it in early Feb.
Up to yesterday's numbers we had at least 135k doses unused (205k doses used)

The problem is cohort 4 is very slow to identify and get vaccinated and that's who the backlog of AZ is earmarked for at the moment.

They should rocket through it in the mass vaccination centres for the 65-69 year olds but that's nearly 2 weeks away which is kinda frustrating since it's sitting there in the mean time.

I think cohort 4 has been a bit of a mistake, we're just not digitised enough to roll out an ambiguous group quickly, would have been better to either just go with age based, or go with strict criteria that doesn't change (where that criteria is that you're identified by a certain date which would have avoided all the people who remembered they had a chronic illlness but haven't been getting treated for it)

stefanovich · 08-04-2021 12:06PM

stephenjmcd wrote: »

Sure of my facts... feel free to give it a Google there, plenty of articles going around.

By strongly refuted are you referencing that the reply was "enemies of Sputnik V in Slovakia".... yeah thats a strong rebuttal when someone says what you've supplied them isn't what they expected.

"The Slovak State Institute for Drugs Control cannot adopt an expert stance on the ratio of benefits and risks surrounding the Sputnik V vaccine without sufficient evidence, and it is missing such evidence due to incomplete data from the manufacturer and the inconsistency of individual batches"

You were implying that the Russian's supplied a fake vaccine.

The other coalition members went nuts because he bypassed the EU. This vaccine has 98% efficacy.

https://www.bbc.com/news/health-55900622

This is political.

Hurrache · 08-04-2021 12:08PM

stefanovich wrote: »

This is political.

Yeah, just like AZ was political :rolleyes:

stephenjmcd · 08-04-2021 12:08PM

stefanovich wrote: »

You were implying that the Russian's supplied a fake vaccine.

The other coalition members went nuts because he bypassed the EU. This vaccine has 98% efficacy.

https://www.bbc.com/news/health-55900622

This is political.

What's in the vials is not what was submitted to the Lancet so no point in throwing in a link to the BBC which quotes it, its pretty straightforward to understand.

Slovakia expected x in the vials they've looked at it and tested it and got y.

What's so hard to understand?

stefanovich · 08-04-2021 12:09PM

stephenjmcd wrote: »

What's in the vials is not what was submitted, its pretty straightforward to understand

Where did they say that?

ACitizenErased · 08-04-2021 12:11PM

Slovakia receive vials that don’t match the actual vaccines make-up -> “POLITICAL”

stephenjmcd · 08-04-2021 12:11PM

stefanovich wrote: »

Where did they say that?

"Slovakia's drug agency Sukl says 'Sputnik V' vaccine batches delivered to the country do not have the same characteristics as batches used in The Lancet magazine studies"

is_that_so · 08-04-2021 12:12PM

astrofool wrote: »

I think cohort 4 has been a bit of a mistake, we're just not digitised enough to roll out an ambiguous group quickly, would have been better to either just go with age based, or go with strict criteria that doesn't change (where that criteria is that you're identified by a certain date which would have avoided all the people who remembered they had a chronic illlness but haven't been getting treated for it)

They are still a vulnerable group and it's a sensible call, even if they miss some. They'll eventually pick up enough of them for it to be deemed complete. With Group 7 to follow there's a reasonable chance to get more of them anyway.

PhoenixParker · 08-04-2021 12:20PM

is_that_so wrote: »

They are still a vulnerable group and it's a sensible call, even if they miss some. They'll eventually pick up enough of them for it to be deemed complete. With Group 7 to follow there's a reasonable chance to get more of them anyway.

I think it should be done alongside at least one more big easy to find cohort, especially now that vaccine supply has arrived. I think the HSE have messed up a bit by not getting the 65-69 year olds registered last week and starting on them this week.

It's not a huge delay in the grand scheme of things and maybe Cohorts 4's numbers this week will surprise me, but somehow I doubt it.

(There's a large dollop of hindsight is 20:20 about this too).

is_that_so · 08-04-2021 12:23PM

PhoenixParker wrote: »

I think it should be done alongside at least one more big easy to find cohort, especially now that vaccine supply has arrived. I think the HSE have messed up a bit by not getting the 65-69 year olds registered last week and starting on them this week.

It's not a huge delay in the grand scheme of things and maybe Cohorts 4's numbers this week will surprise me, but somehow I doubt it.

(There's a large dollop of hindsight is 20:20 about this too).

Well TBF they are doing 6 groups at once and the 65-69 group are pencilled in to start soon. I'd put an awful lot of this so-called mess down to supplies.

josip · 08-04-2021 12:29PM

stefanovich wrote: »

You were implying that the Russian's supplied a fake vaccine.

The other coalition members went nuts because he bypassed the EU. This vaccine has 98% efficacy.

https://www.bbc.com/news/health-55900622

This is political.

Only if the dial goes all the way to 110

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(21)00191-4/fulltext
Which in Putin's Russia, it probably does.

noplacehere · 08-04-2021 12:39PM

astrofool wrote: »

I think cohort 4 has been a bit of a mistake, we're just not digitised enough to roll out an ambiguous group quickly, would have been better to either just go with age based, or go with strict criteria that doesn't change (where that criteria is that you're identified by a certain date which would have avoided all the people who remembered they had a chronic illlness but haven't been getting treated for it)

There has been months to get that cohort 4 identified but they didn’t instruct anyone or start creating the data base until literally a few weeks ago. Completely and utterly ridiculous. They could have had a portal open in January. Created a strict clear set of criteria and require us all to have uploaded a letter from the GP or consultant as we registered. We’d have been ready to go.

This is totally on the HSE. I mean no one knew anything no matter who I contacted until I suddenly got a text from Blanchardstown with about 30hrs notice for the jab. I didn’t even know I was on their books for it. I’ve since been offered another one through a different consultant

1huge1 · 08-04-2021 12:39PM

My Dad (67, immunocompromised so presumably cohort 4) just got a call from his GP to expect to receive a text for an appointment at the Radisson MVC in Limerick for today or tomorrow, such short notice but absolutely delighted all the same.

He is more than happy to get the Astrazeneca vaccine bar the 12 week wait until the 2nd dose.

I'm delighted anyway, my mum is a HCW and is getting her second AZ dose at the end of the month, big relief to have both parents vaccinated, even 1 dose reduces the risks massively.

Wolf359f · 08-04-2021 12:44PM

astrofool wrote: »

I think cohort 4 has been a bit of a mistake, we're just not digitised enough to roll out an ambiguous group quickly, would have been better to either just go with age based, or go with strict criteria that doesn't change (where that criteria is that you're identified by a certain date which would have avoided all the people who remembered they had a chronic illlness but haven't been getting treated for it)

Pharmacists probably could have identified those in cohort 4 or 7 quicker based on prescriptions.
Seems there's alot of paperwork involved with prescriptions until you get to the chemist when it's finally entered into a computer system (based on my experience only)
They have the capability to identify, contact and administer a vaccine for those cohorts.

stephenjmcd · 08-04-2021 12:53PM

1huge1 wrote: »

My Dad (67, immunocompromised so presumably cohort 4) just got a call from his GP to expect ro receive a text for an appointment at the Radisson MVC in Limerick for today or tomorrow, such short notice but absolutely delighted all the same.

He is more than happy to get the Astrazeneca vaccine bar the 12 week wait until the 2nd dose.

I'm delighted anyway, my mum is a HCW and is getting her second AZ dose at the end of the month, big relief to have both parents vaccinated, even 1 dose reduces the risks massively.

Delighted to hear. Best wishes to all.

My own grandmother is fully vaccinated about 3 weeks now and you can see the difference in how she's goes about things now. It's great to see, so much more confidence.

Pete_Cavan · 08-04-2021 12:56PM

Could the Sputnik issue get split off into a new thread? I have a feeling that this is going to run and run.

nibtrix · 08-04-2021 01:00PM

Wolf359f wrote: »

Pharmacists probably could have identified those in cohort 4 or 7 quicker based on prescriptions.
Seems there's alot of paperwork involved with prescriptions until you get to the chemist when it's finally entered into a computer system (based on my experience only)
They have the capability to identify, contact and administer a vaccine for those cohorts.

Thinking outside the box, pity a few of the people in charge couldn't do this! At the very least the "High-Tech" prescription scheme could have been used to gather a lot of names, seeing as you need to be registered with your PPS number for that.

charlie14 · 08-04-2021 01:03PM

Wolf359f wrote: »

It's based on eligible/adult population.
So it would be a jump from about 10% to 19%
I think. It's hard when they start using different % based on total population or adult population.

Personally I would prefer they stick to % of total population, which is more relevant for herd immunity, but with them being unfairly compared to other countries whose % is based on those presently eligible for vaccination, I can see why they highlight the 19%.

snotboogie · 08-04-2021 01:04PM

Is 850k still the goal for April? We have only done 80k in the first 6 days. That leaves us 770 to do in 24 days. That's an average of 32k per day. However there are 6 weekend days left. If we continue to average 5k per day on weekends we will need to average 41k per day on weekdays to reach 850k this month.

Even if we up the weekends to 10k, we still need to average 40k on weekdays.

Summary, the weekends are killing us at the moment and we will struggle to meet 850k in April at our current rate, especially if as I expect, we only hit 30k on Tuesday and Wednesday this week.

1.5 million total by the end of the month, or 600k total for April looks far more likely to me at the moment. We are going to either have to stop the weekend delays and match them to weekdays or start pulling out some 50k days to make up for the shortfall. I don't see either happening. A 50k day puts us at 1 per 100, that is globally notable and would put us top of the world in administration. Even 5 back to back 40k days would put us among the world's best.

IRISHSPORTSGUY · 08-04-2021 01:06PM

...

BERLIN (Reuters) - Global supply chains for making COVID-19 vaccines have been disrupted by U.S. restrictions, creating headaches for companies seeking to build production in Europe, according to one of the founders of Germany’s Curevac.

Florian von der Muelbe said in a newspaper interview that he was hopeful Curevac’s vaccine candidate would win emergency European approval this quarter and confirmed a forecast that it would produce 300 million doses this year.

He added, however, that vaccine makers seeking to build production in Europe were at a serious disadvantage because suppliers in the United States were required under the Defense Production Act to meet the needs of the home market first.

“Global supply chains are disrupted,” von der Muelbe, now Curevac’s chief production officer, told the Rheinische Post in an interview published on Wednesday.

“Be it chemicals, equipment, filters or hoses: U.S. manufacturers are obliged first to meet American demand, and that means we are slipping down the list.”

Curevac is already producing its vaccine candidate, which is based on messenger RNA (mRNA) technology, at its plant in Tuebingen, Germany.

It has just struck a partnership with Swiss contract manufacturer Celonic Group, adding to earlier alliances with Novartis AG, Bayer AG, Fareva, Wacker and Rentschler Biopharma SE.

speckle · 08-04-2021 01:17PM

astrofool wrote: »

I think cohort 4 has been a bit of a mistake, we're just not digitised enough to roll out an ambiguous group quickly, would have been better to either just go with age based, or go with strict criteria that doesn't change (where that criteria is that you're identified by a certain date which would have avoided all the people who remembered they had a chronic illlness but haven't been getting treated for it)

I dont agree entirely... reading across the boards covid thread and having family friends neighbours in that cohort and people I know working with(ngos) or/treating them.. Some gps and hospital consultants and even ngo's have definitly been more organised than others in getting their lists together and in some instances personally contacting the patients/clients.

Maybe they ones that havn't been able to needed more logistical/organisational help or extra staff especially GP's.

Note that if on the medical card and you have a chronic illnesss you maybe waiting years to see a consultant and also once you have seen one if there is more than a set time for example two years between appointments... you have to apply again via your gp or go to a and e..

You take care of yourself with both medicines you are on and personal care and do everything in your power to stay stablised with your issue and then for whatever reason you go downhill and then you have to start the referral process over again or end up on a and e.( a great other option is the specialised eye public a and e in cork/dublin as time is parmount incases as in a extremely short time you can lose sight forever)

And remember the effects of lockdown this year on outpatient appointments especially first timers or those with the gap have been impacted in the public system.

And most people dont just remember they have a chronic illness at the last moment either they are not educated/unsure re their diseases ramifications or are waiting up to 4 years for an outpatients public appointment or just trying to get on with life the best the can especially in the public system.

So a lot of people especially in waiting on public healthcare apointments are in limbo between their gp and consultant/specialist.

This needs to change and digital is not the be all..you might be able to word search..but this does not replace the need to personally know your patient well or read through their notes or check with them/hospital/gp for an update.

If you choose a cut of date that puts non private patients at a disadvantage..also for example their has been changing to the cut off point re the weight issue and many more have fallen into that catorgory this year working from home or due to stress for example caring for relatives/losing a job etc....where as the asthma at risk cohort has been narrowed etc. And with some patients in cohort 4 timing of the injection in relation to their medication protocol can be important for example RA patients and immunosupressants. Decisions also had to be made is it safe enough for this person to have it in the GPs versus a hospital...etc

Many countys public wait lists are 2 to 4 years orthopedic/neurology/rhuematoid/immunology/obesity clinic etc and I am sure others here can add more to that list. eg needed orthapedic appointment private/public consultant told me either 2/4 weeks wait private or up to 2 years public even though my career/future depended on the issue.

And while we are at another little gem re covid..no post covid viral clinic in many countys you are refered back to a and e...see posts on boards elsewhere and I confirmed this talking to local HCWs.

In summation digitisation(and most gps are computerised) helps a little re narrowing numbers but reading through patients files needs a specialised human eye which takes time and staff and then following up ....and decisions on patients waiting for hospital appointments takes more time in public system due to waiting list backlogs in some areas..and puts them at a disadvantage to private patients.

If totally age based that puts younger high risk people who have maybe up to 50 years of life expectancy at a disadvantage or doubly if in the public system... if we were to do that whst the heck as all the sacrifice of the last year been about..numerous times during the year they have played second fiddle already.

And remember these treatments/injections anyhow are mean to be more useful to high risk persons in them avoiding hospital/severe illness than others in a pure age based system who really dont need them as critically ..if they are young and healthy.

Anyhow apologies re post rambles a bit...a lot of this information has been posted here before on this thread if you were to amalgate previous posts especially earlier on.

08-04-2021 01:19PM

stephenjmcd wrote: »

What's in the vials is not what was submitted to the Lancet so no point in throwing in a link to the BBC which quotes it, its pretty straightforward to understand.

Slovakia expected x in the vials they've looked at it and tested it and got y.

What's so hard to understand?

In all likelihood the discrepancies would have zero impact on the efficacy of the vaccine. There is a good reason why manufacturers a required to produce evidence that the batch is what it says it is however . Have a look at the Hepirin scandal where manufacturers went outside the normal supply chains and received fake active ingredient, or the silicon implants scandal, where manufacturers again sourced components outside normal supply chains and ended up implanting industrial grade rather than medical grade silicon in many people. I would suggest there is a good chance what ever discrepancy exists is related to the sourcing of component used in formulation by a contract manufacturer.

nibtrix · 08-04-2021 01:43PM

speckle wrote: »

I dont agree entirely... reading across the boards covid thread and having family friends neighbours in that cohort and people I know working with(ngos) or/treating them.. Some gps and hospital consultants and even ngo's have definitly been more organised than others in getting their lists together and in some instances personally contacting the patients/clients.

Maybe they ones that havn't been able to needed more logistical/organisational help or extra staff especially GP's.

...

Great post speckle. I'd add one point which is it seems the changing cohort requirements are not clear enough in some cases. For example the immunocompromised section states:

treatment: - included but not limited to Cyclophosphamide, Rituximab, Alemtuzumab, Cladribine or Ocrelizumab in the last 6 months

I've seen several posts from people on "other" immunosuppressive meds who have received a vaccine (or at least an appointment) but one of the largest public Rheumatology departments in the country told me today that they are only including patients receiving the named medications! Seems to be completely up to the individual department/consultant.

Turtwig · 08-04-2021 01:46PM

astrofool wrote: »

I think cohort 4 has been a bit of a mistake, we're just not digitised enough to roll out an ambiguous group quickly, would have been better to either just go with age based, or go with strict criteria that doesn't change (where that criteria is that you're identified by a certain date which would have avoided all the people who remembered they had a chronic illlness but haven't been getting treated for it)

Have to disagree. They're the group after over 70s most likely to require hospitalisations. The more of these you identify and vaccinate the better. Working them in parallel with all the other cohorts is the way to go.

Going solely age based before supply ramped up wouldn't ease the burden on the health services as efficiently.

Strazdas · 08-04-2021 01:47PM

snotboogie wrote: »

Is 850k still the goal for April? We have only done 80k in the first 6 days. That leaves us 770 to do in 24 days. That's an average of 32k per day. However there are 6 weekend days left. If we continue to average 5k per day on weekends we will need to average 41k per day on weekdays to reach 850k this month.

Even if we up the weekends to 10k, we still need to average 40k on weekdays.

Summary, the weekends are killing us at the moment and we will struggle to meet 850k in April at our current rate, especially if as I expect, we only hit 30k on Tuesday and Wednesday this week.

1.5 million total by the end of the month, or 600k total for April looks far more likely to me at the moment. We are going to either have to stop the weekend delays and match them to weekdays or start pulling out some 50k days to make up for the shortfall. I don't see either happening. A 50k day puts us at 1 per 100, that is globally notable and would put us top of the world in administration. Even 5 back to back 40k days would put us among the world's best.

I believe so. I've heard that the first supplies of the Johnson & Johnson vaccine are expected here in the next seven days (earlier than was anticipated).

Lucas Hood · 08-04-2021 01:54PM

Strazdas wrote: »

I believe so. I've heard that the first supplies of the Johnson & Johnson vaccine are expected here in the next seven days (earlier than was anticipated).

Were only expecting 40000 from J&J in April according to Dept of Health.

Strazdas · 08-04-2021 01:57PM

Lucas Hood wrote: »

Were only expecting 40000 from J&J in April according to Dept of Health.

Indeed, but it seems deliveries of all vaccines will be higher here in April than they were in March : ramping up across the board.

speckle · 08-04-2021 01:59PM

Wolf359f wrote: »

Pharmacists probably could have identified those in cohort 4 or 7 quicker based on prescriptions.
Seems there's alot of paperwork involved with prescriptions until you get to the chemist when it's finally entered into a computer system (based on my experience only)
They have the capability to identify, contact and administer a vaccine for those cohorts.

Agree with identitfy( but HSe already privy to that info) but not necessarily adminster..as people change pharmacist over the years.. would they nessesarily know you had a previous adverse reaction of what type... or your vaccinations optimal timing if on immunosuppressants for RA? Or that you might be hospitalised at the moment or bedbound or fallen into obsese cohort or had a previous covid infection. Definitely part of the picture but I would prefer to have at a mininum a GP around at the time of injection..This very different than an annual influenza injection for the high risk cohort...that is not saying it wont change in the future re adminstration....There may also be a liability issue?

COVID-19: Vaccine and testing procedures Megathread Part 3 - Read OP

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