Can we have some fcuking control on the airports from high risk countries please?

NSAman · 07-04-2021 09:07PM

hmmm wrote: »

If we're going to do this then I think there needs to be a strict time limit. 2 months, and it automatically expires.

Mandatory quarantine can't be used as an excuse to hide under our beds forever for fear of "variants", and it can't also be used as an excuse (by a small element) to keep foreigners out of Ireland.

Either way the impact on those who rely on travel, and our reputation, will be considerable, and despite what some people think this does matter. It will look ridiculous over the next few months as countries begin to open up and drop restrictions, while we're careering off script implementing some sort of last-minute zero-Covid approach.

Realistically there are around 500 bedrooms available in the four hotels currently. If three flights are full coming in from the states (I know that’s a stretch at the moment) where do people stay?

I got vaccinated today. I will be travelling home in a few weeks. The mandatory hotel quarantine rules won’t be there soon, there are too many vaccines being rolled out across the globe. Stopping all travel and mandating quarantine in a hotel in Ireland for all, simply won’t work.

It may have worked a year ago, but at this stage it’s too late. Most people SHOULD have a vaccine by July if they want one (outside of the EU)... should it be no vaccine no travel? That’s what it is beginning to look like.

saabsaab · 07-04-2021 09:13PM

NSAman wrote: »

Realistically there are around 500 bedrooms available in the four hotels currently. If three flights are full coming in from the states (I know that’s a stretch at the moment) where do people stay?

I got vaccinated today. I will be travelling home in a few weeks. The mandatory hotel quarantine rules won’t be there soon, there are too many vaccines being rolled out across the globe. Stopping all travel and mandating quarantine in a hotel in Ireland for all, simply won’t work.

It may have worked a year ago, but at this stage it’s too late. Most people SHOULD have a vaccine by July if they want one (outside of the EU)... should it be no vaccine no travel? That’s what it is beginning to look like.

It will be no vaccine no travel as it should be too. The MHQ won't be forever just until roll out, until then just wait!

fm · 07-04-2021 09:15PM

saabsaab wrote: »

It will be no vaccine no travel as it should be too. The MHQ won't be forever just until roll out, until then just wait!

It's rolling out now, what do you mean? 80% - 100% what?

saabsaab · 07-04-2021 09:19PM

saabsaab wrote: »

Actually the numbers are rising again. Vaccinations should end it and soon. This should include new variants as the world vaccinates and they can't develop and spread. Patience until we get there, probably at the end of June (over 2,000,000 by then).

Said it already.

NH2013 · 07-04-2021 09:20PM

fm wrote: »

It's rolling out now, what do you mean? 80% - 100% what?

Indeed, it probably should already be an element that if you're fully vaccinated you shouldn't have to quarantine or restrict movements with travel.

If you're vaccinated and travelling now you're as likely to transmit a variant as if you're vaccinated and travelling 12 months from now, so why should travel restrictions still be imposed on people who've got the vaccine which have demonstrated the practical elimination of transmission.

saabsaab · 07-04-2021 09:23PM

NH2013 wrote: »

Indeed, it probably should already be an element that if you're fully vaccinated you shouldn't have to quarantine or restrict movements with travel.

If you're vaccinated and travelling now you're as likely to transmit a variant as if you're vaccinated and travelling 12 months from now, so why should travel restrictions still be imposed on people who've got the vaccine which have demonstrated the practical elimination of transmission.

We can't tell but it may be much less a chance in future with a roll out completed.

JDD · 07-04-2021 09:29PM

I’m sure someone has discussed this already, but why is Israel on the MHQ list? Case numbers are low and most arrivals will be vaccinated.

hmmm · 07-04-2021 09:30PM

saabsaab wrote: »

We can't tell but it may be much less a chance in future with a roll out completed.

At any point over the past few years we could have had someone with Ebola arrive on a plane. At some point in the future there will be a new strain of Influenza which will have a high mortality. Dengue has reached France.

We live with these risks, Covid will be just another one. We won't be locking the country down indefinitely for fear of new variants. I understand that the virologists who worry about these risks have genuine fears (and an influenza "big one" is perhaps overdue), but we have to live our lives too.

If anything, Covid should ramp up surveillance of dangerous new viruses, and also we'll have a new toolbox (e.g. mRNA vaccines) which we can deploy quickly for the next pandemic.

NH2013 · 07-04-2021 09:48PM

saabsaab wrote: »

We can't tell but it may be much less a chance in future with a roll out completed.

But countries like the USA and Israel have effectively completed their roll outs, Biden has said that by 17th of April, in just 10 days anyone who wanted a vaccine will have gotten one, and Israel has now stated they've difficulty in getting more people in to take the vaccine, so they're effectively fully vaccinated as well, so they should be let in once things open here as they're as good as they'll get.

saabsaab · 07-04-2021 09:49PM

BRAZILIAN PRESIDENT JAIR Bolsonaro has said there will be “no national lockdown” a day after the nation saw its highest number of Covid-19 deaths.
Brazil’s Health Ministry registered 4,195 deaths yesterday, becoming the third country to go above that threshold as Bolsonaro’s political opponents demanded stricter measures to slow down the spread of the virus.
The country has registered more than 335,000 Covid-19 deaths in total.
“We’re not going to accept this politics of stay home and shut everything down,” Bolsonaro said, resisting the pressure in a speech in the city of Chapeco in Santa Catarina state.
“There will be no national lockdown.”

Not a policy that most would want or have no control over those coming here.

hmmm · 07-04-2021 09:49PM

NH2013 wrote: »

But countries like the USA and Israel have effectively completed their roll outs, Biden has said that by 17th of April, in just 10 days anyone who wanted a vaccine will have gotten one, and Israel has now stated they've difficulty in getting more people in to take the vaccine, so they're effectively fully vaccinated as well, so they should be let in once things open here as they're as good as they'll get.

Probably not for this thread, but I think the Irish tourist industry should be given a chance to recover business in the second half of this year. It would make no economic sense to keep vaccinated tourists out of this country, or forced to quarantine - obviously they will go elsewhere in that case.

saabsaab · 07-04-2021 10:01PM

hmmm wrote: »

Probably not for this thread, but I think the Irish tourist industry should be given a chance to recover business in the second half of this year. It would make no economic sense to keep vaccinated tourists out of this country, or forced to quarantine - obviously they will go elsewhere in that case.

Two birds with one stone. Fully vaccinate the islands now, probably only 15,000 doses at most and transfer tourists there with a free shot if needed. Boost tourism, limit spread.

Covid 'free' holiday?

josip · 07-04-2021 10:15PM

JDD wrote: »

I’m sure someone has discussed this already, but why is Israel on the MHQ list? Case numbers are low and most arrivals will be vaccinated.

De vary ants and Facebook.

a_squirrelman · 07-04-2021 10:16PM

saabsaab wrote: »

Two birds with one stone. Fully vaccinate the islands now, probably only 15,000 doses at most and transfer tourists there with a free shot if needed. Boost tourism, limit spread.

Covid 'free' holiday?

You wanted to send the MHQers to the islands, and now the tourists? Cloud cuckoo is where you're at.

Red Silurian · 07-04-2021 10:53PM

Happydays2020 wrote: »

Back with that nonsense again that every case is travel related. No credibility if that is your response to all community transmission.

Is it really nonsense that every case is travel related? How did a virus that started in China get here? A South Westerly wind?

saabsaab · 07-04-2021 10:58PM

a_squirrelman wrote: »

You wanted to send the MHQers to the islands, and now the tourists? Cloud cuckoo is where you're at.

Both the same for now.

normanoffside · 07-04-2021 11:16PM

Red Silurian wrote: »

Is it really nonsense that every case is travel related? How did a virus that started in China get here? A South Westerly wind?

Every case in the world is then travel related.
If only we had shut down all forms of travel in November 2019 and kept it shut down until now then there would not have been a pandemic.

Corholio · 07-04-2021 11:56PM

normanoffside wrote: »

Every case in the world is then travel related.
If only we had shut down all forms of travel in November 2019 and kept it shut down until now then there would not have been a pandemic.

I know that was said in sarcasm but there's some that would go 'Actually ya, sounds a darn good idea' :P

This 'every case is travel related' stuff is tiresome. It's as if once it gets into Ireland all responsibility is cut, 'don't worry, you didn't bring it in, you're grand'

caveat emptor · 08-04-2021 12:08AM

Corholio wrote: »

I know that was said in sarcasm but there's some that would go 'Actually ya, sounds a darn good idea' :P

This 'every case is travel related' stuff is tiresome. It's as if once it gets into Ireland all responsibility is cut, 'don't worry, you didn't bring it in, you're grand'

By responsibility to you mean :

staying cooped up at home for months on end,
Kids forgoing education,
20% unemployed,
businesses failing,
Hospitals not operating.

those kind of things?

That's a lot of responsibility that society has to take.

Corholio · 08-04-2021 12:18AM

caveat emptor wrote: »

By responsibility to you mean :
staying cooped up at home for months on end,

Kids forgoing education,

20% unemployed,

businesses failing,

Hospitals not operating.

those kind of things?

That's a lot of responsibility that society has to take.

What are you on about? That was a hell of a tangent you rode off on. The black and white nonsense of 'eVery cAsE is travel related' is a tiresome roadblock in a debate used only to pin everything on travel and remove responsibility from the people spreading, not knowingly of course for a lot but plenty who recklessly did, which every country had.

caveat emptor · 08-04-2021 12:27AM

Corholio wrote: »

What are you on about? That was a hell of a tangent you rode off on. The black and white nonsense of 'eVery cAsE is technically travel related' is a tiresome roadblock in a debate used only to pin everything on travel and remove responsibility from the people spreading, not knowingly of course for a lot but plenty who recklessly did, which every country had.

Every case is travel related. Every subsequent case of transmission here is due to people trying to live a normal life. We've been told to not live normally this last year in order to control this highly infectious disease.

Things won't return to normal while anyone can just pop in to Ireland with a pinky promise to isolate.

Admittedly the best time to do this was before lots of people went on a summer holiday (living normally) and brought back new chains of transmission.

It's still worth doing though as a variant could emerge that could spread quicker than we can get a new updated vaccine into people's arms.

That's the reality that governments see. I understand if you don't accept it.

Corholio · 08-04-2021 12:46AM

caveat emptor wrote: »

Every case is travel related. Every subsequent case of transmission here is due to people trying to live a normal life. We've been told to not live normally this last year in order to control this highly infectious disease.

Things won't return to normal while anyone can just pop in to Ireland with a pinky promise to isolate.

Admittedly the best time to do this was before lots of people went on a summer holiday (living normally) and brought back new chains of transmission.

It's still worth doing though as a variant could emerge that could spread quicker than we can get a new updated vaccine into people's arms.

That's the reality that governments see. I understand if you don't accept it.

Every person here who has tested positive has the same pinky promise to isolate too. So no one spread it recklessly then?, not following last years restrictions, house parties, unregulated meat plant distancing, reckless nursing home decisions in the early stages etc etc. A lot of the cases were completely innocent of course, but transmission was driven by lots of incidents, times of year, complete innocence and part recklessness. Ironically a reality the government couldn't see last year when certain measures would have been much better to do then.

Not sure how the argument got to here over an awful, dismissive phrase that only sets up an immediate bias from the start.

caveat emptor · 08-04-2021 12:53AM

Corholio wrote: »

Every person here who has tested positive has the same pinky promise to isolate too. So no one spread it recklessly then?, not following last years restrictions, house parties, unregulated meat plant distancing, reckless nursing home decisions in the early stages etc etc. A lot of the cases were completely innocent of course, but transmission was driven by lots of incidents, times of year, complete innocence and part recklessness. Ironically a reality the government couldn't see last year when certain measures would have been much better to do then.

Not sure how the argument got to here over an awful, dismissive phrase that only sets up an immediate bias from the start.

I'm not biased. The things you mention are massive issues in trying to control this and have undermined progress.

They are not very controllable though without chairman Mao level restrictions. As people are fond of saying "we aren't China".

Saying to people don't travel and if you do you have to stay in a hotel for 2 weeks is the lesser of two bad options.

Corholio · 08-04-2021 01:04AM

caveat emptor wrote: »

I'm not biased. The things you mention are massive issues in trying to control this and have undermined progress.

They are not very controllable though without chairman Mao level restrictions. As people are fond of saying "we aren't China".

Saying to people don't travel and if you do you have to stay in a hotel for 2 weeks is the lesser of two bad options.

Where was I arguing against this? I have issues with the setting up of the MHQ but Im not necessarily against elements of it being needed, although it should have happened much sooner, along with completely bungling Christmas it's the controversy it is now, needlessly. That's got nothing to do with the dismissive use of the phrase.

faceman · 08-04-2021 06:54AM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

'Jesus was that the speed limit Guard? I'd no idea!'.

Speeding isn’t a criminal offence

faceman · 08-04-2021 06:56AM

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

Throw in manslaughter as well.

"Ignorance of the law is no defence" as the judge herself said.

It's not a requirement that you intended to actually commit a crime, just intended to commit the act that is a crime.

Anyway, their house of cards will all fall in open court

Ignorance of the law is separate to absolute liability, which as I mentioned, is unconstitutional is certain circumstances

faceman · 08-04-2021 06:57AM

Kaisr Sose wrote: »

I don't get it also. Let's say the charge is assault.

You are charged with assault causing injury but you get off because it was not your intention to assault the person? But the issue remains that you assaulted the person.

There is also the charge of theft by finding. You find something on a road or wherever and take it knowing its not your property. You are seen / identified and charged with theft by finding. In court you argue you found it/did not steal it/ never meant to steal it but you are convicted of theft by finding.

And so it goes on..

They were detained because they refused to go into quarantine. It was not a random detention. The ammendment to the Health Act provides for arrest and imprisonment or fine or both for refusing to quarantine or leaving quarantine. Their detention was in line with that. You can't release them on bail back to liberty as that makes a mockery of the charge of refusing to quarantine. They would not loose the assumption of innocence by being detained, although by their own admissions, they clearly did refuse to enter mandatory hotel quarantine.

A judicial review will take ages and they don't come cheap. This whole thing stinks and the only ones that will benefit will be the legal profession employed to argue the case.

It’s not comparable with an assault case. There is no injured party here

My original post wasn’t my opinion. I was relaying what a barrister told me

faceman · 08-04-2021 07:50AM

If there’s no transparency and clear criteria on how countries get on the list, there’s no credibility. Also this is shit.

https://jrnl.ie/5402575

ninebeanrows · 08-04-2021 08:11AM

saabsaab wrote: »

There is a strong chance that a new variant could cause havoc with vaccination programmes. Best to delay reduce to a minimum international travel so any intake can be traced quickly and stopped.

Linsten to the Kingston Mills RTE I posted earlier.

There will always be variants of COVID, the world isn't eradicating this disease.

Should we close up shop for how long? months, years, 1, 2, 3?

There is no evidence the current vaccines do not work against any of the known variants. They will be tweaked to higher their cover against known ones for the next boosters we will likely get in 2022

If you decide to pick at will countries with so called variants then they could be on the list for years.

For example, why is Germany being added? What crazy ass variants do they have that is likely to arrive here through PCR negative pax?

No different chance to any other nation and it is minimal.

We have to accept some risk otherwise we shut ourselves off for long term, the advice from NEPHET has always been extremely cautious and severe.

The MHQ was set up for big outbreaks centres such as Brazil not for marginal cases like Germany etc, these should be on an amber list, not a red list.

I feel it is being abused by some zero covid people within public health

Happydays2020 · 08-04-2021 08:13AM

faceman wrote: »

If there’s no transparency and clear criteria on how countries get on the list, there’s no credibility. Also this is shit.

https://jrnl.ie/5402575

That is the problem - it is all over the place.

Sure in December we were flying people home from the UK, and now happy to lock up people from countries with low incidence including Israel FFS.

The inclusion of EU countries on the list was not fully thought through, the transit issue was not fully explained, and they never implemented the risk based (and random) tests on arrival which could have supplemented normal advice asking people to show common sense when arriving from abroad. Not to mention doubling down on common sense advice to people in the community. And that is excluding the reality of a having an open border with a non EU country, the common travel area and our deep links to other parts of Europe (family, investments, trade, second homes etc).

I think we all get it that variants are a concern. But aside from stopping all flights and ferries, and closing the border, we are in mitigation territory but that mitigation (MHQ) and other measures needs to be absolutely focused on the highest risks and done correctly.

Can we have some fcuking control on the airports from high risk countries please?

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