Are we there yet? Your second Travel Megathread (threadbans in OP}

Gael23 · 06-04-2021 12:33PM

Level 42 wrote: »

those 2 women sure seem like a pair of tits to me

They are as tough as nails

Chuck Norris 2021 · 06-04-2021 12:49PM

JDD wrote: »

But I don't agree that they shouldn't be added because of "the number of Irish living there" or "but the EU rules say...", because it really doesn't matter if the covid positive person coming from that country is Irish or French, and other EU countries are imposing hotel quarantine, so the EU rules on this are kind of out the window.

I'm hoping to travel this summer, and I don't agree with restricting European travel (mainly because it fits my own agenda..being very honest), but I was quiet shocked that they looked at it that way, all Europeans should be treated equally.
There are some restrictions in place on travel in other European countries at present, but they're doing it in order to facilitate opening up for summer. If that was the case here I'm sure that everyone would put their shoulder to the wheel for a few more months, but there are no plans to open up travel here at any point.

Chuck Norris 2021 · 06-04-2021 12:51PM

Gael23 wrote: »

They are as tough as nails

The cynical side of me wonders if it's all a publicity stunt on their behalf to create some sort of Instagram following etc like another Irish woman did recently? Sorry for straying off topic but it all seems a bit bizarre.

faceman · 06-04-2021 12:59PM

JDD wrote: »

I would suspect that they were never going for cosmetic surgery. They just made the bookings like the people who made dentist bookings in Lanzarote - i.e. in case they were stopped and asked whether their trip was essential. So possibly they never had the money for that.

Look I'm not defending them. They swanned off on a holiday in the middle of a pandemic to a covid hotspot. I get that they might not have known about the mandatory hotel quarantine - it took so long to come in that I wouldn't have known the exact date it was going to go live two weeks before it eventually did. And I read the papers every day. Perhaps I would have made it my business to know if I was choosing to swan off on holidays, but if I didn't regularly read the news I'm not sure that I would have. And you could easily think that it only applied to foreign nationals.

So I would think they actually didn't have the money for the hotel. Or if they did, they didn't want to declare it to the authorities in case it effected their lone parent allowance, who knows? The point is, one of them caught covid, in Dubai and it would have been highly likely that she would have infected her children or her parents if she had been allowed to isolate at home rather than in hotel quarantine.

Whether that effects the constitutional case or not is hard to know. Of course it assists the government narrative that hotel quarantine is proportionate, but constitutional issues are decided by a panel of judges, not a jury, and they are generally pretty immune to public opinion. They look at the law, and judgements made in the past and in other countries in how to apply the law. And that's it.

Fair points and speculative off line I may agree openly with some of the points you make. One correction though, neither of them have covid as per the Indo today.

Regarding the constitutional question, their personal circumstances won’t impact that.

Someone pointed out to me that had it not been for the 2 of them, a constitutional challenge would unlikely arise as no one would stick their name in the papers given the public outrage at travel. That is probably what the government expected. However these 2 girls have nothing to lose.

faceman · 06-04-2021 01:00PM

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

I'll reserve judgement until someone other than her mother says it.

But haven’t you judged them already like everyone else in the thread?

06-04-2021 01:12PM

faceman wrote: »

But haven’t you judged them already like everyone else in the thread?

I presume he means reserve judgement on whether they have covid or not.
There are members of AGS at home self isolating because of their positive test, I doubt that's going to happen if it's not true.

I like how the mammy said they followed all travel advise! Yea, except the but where it says no non essential travel #rolleyes#

06-04-2021 01:15PM

JDD wrote: »

Whether that effects the constitutional case or not is hard to know. Of course it assists the government narrative that hotel quarantine is proportionate, but constitutional issues are decided by a panel of judges, not a jury, and they are generally pretty immune to public opinion. They look at the law, and judgements made in the past and in other countries in how to apply the law. And that's it.

Yeah, I'd be pretty sure whether they have covid or not won't come into any judgement about the constitutionality of the law

Hilzabeaatch · 06-04-2021 01:21PM

No other EU country is imposing mandatory hotel quarantine as far as I know. Ireland is an outlier here I believe.

faceman · 06-04-2021 01:33PM

bubblypop wrote: »

I presume he means reserve judgement on whether they have covid or not.
There are members of AGS at home self isolating because of their positive test, I doubt that's going to happen if it's not true.

I like how the mammy said they followed all travel advise! Yea, except the but where it says no non essential travel #rolleyes#

My comment was half tongue in cheek.

I wonder if the first test they had was an antigen test which has a higher risk of a false positive

JDD · 06-04-2021 01:55PM

Hilzabeaatch wrote: »

No other EU country is imposing mandatory hotel quarantine as far as I know. Ireland is an outlier here I believe.

I think Hungary has?

I like how the mammy said they followed all travel advise! Yea, except the but where it says no non essential travel #rolleyes

Well yes, we all know that in reality they went on a holiday. But I suppose if you are applying the letter of the law, plastic surgery can be considered essential in certain limited circumstances. And they had that documentation when they left Dublin. so they did comply with the letter of the law. Now, it clearly wasn't essential if they had no intention of showing up for their appointments, but they could argue all sorts of reasons why they did not ultimately decide to go ahead with it - the surgery seemed dodgy when they got there, they talked out the reasons for going ahead with the surgery and decided that they didn't need it after all, blah de blah de blah.

And I suppose there is a TINY chance the above could be true, so I suppose it is not inaccurate to claim that they complied with all travel advice.

gozunda · 06-04-2021 02:01PM

JDD wrote: »

Didn't they only arrive in on Friday?

If she got her positive test result yesterday, the test was either taken on Sunday morning or Saturday.

There's no way she caught it here. It takes five days for the virus to show up in antigen tests. So she caught it in Dubai.

Its likely she caught it while waiting at the airport for the Irish consulate to sort out the fact that they couldn't pay for the hotel quarantine.

True.

I was wondering how long it would take before that line was used as a defence :pac:

From the indo article linked

Niamh Mulreany's mother Sabrina also said the women were 'being treated worse than animals’ and the whole situaton had become ‘a circus’...

In response, Ms Mulreany’s mother, who is a frontline worker said: “Niamh and Kirstie are being made examples of it’s as simple as that and the question has to be asked why?

Erm "treated like animals" in the Dorcas womans prison and now being put up in a four star hotel? Just as well she didn't end up in Prison in Dubai.

Ms Mulreany’s mother, speaking on behalf of the friends, has confirmed that both girls received a Covid-19 PCR test, after testing negative to a previous three, and an antibody exam, when they entered the women’s prison on Saturday night...

They had asked authorities, Department of Health, for independent PCR tests to be carried out on the girls on Monday evening...

So they don't believe that the testing carried out was genuine or?

Chuck Norris 2021 · 06-04-2021 02:05PM

https://news.sky.com/story/covid-19-pm-has-not-given-up-on-foreign-holidays-from-17-may-and-holidaymakers-could-use-lateral-flow-tests-12267483

Boris Johnson says he has not "given up" on allowing Britons to jet abroad from 17 May - as he raised the prospect of holidaymakers being able to use cheaper and faster COVID tests on their return to the UK.

Even if it didn't come to pass, isn't it refreshing for people to be told that they are at least trying to allow holidays to go ahead.

Instead of what we get here;

Coronavirus: Summer holidays abroad ‘not realistic’, says Holohan
CMO says Irish people heading for summer ‘of beaches in their own localities’

Gael23 · 06-04-2021 02:16PM

Chuck Norris 2021 wrote: »

https://news.sky.com/story/covid-19-pm-has-not-given-up-on-foreign-holidays-from-17-may-and-holidaymakers-could-use-lateral-flow-tests-12267483

Coronavirus: Summer holidays abroad ‘not realistic’, says Holohan
CMO says Irish people heading for summer ‘of beaches in their own localities’

That was a few months ago wasn’t it?

Chuck Norris 2021 · 06-04-2021 02:19PM

Gael23 wrote: »

That was a few months ago wasn’t it?

Correct in the case of Holohan's comments. Nothing has really changed since though.

Borris Johnson's comments are today's.

06-04-2021 02:21PM

Hilzabeaatch wrote: »

No other EU country is imposing mandatory hotel quarantine as far as I know. Ireland is an outlier here I believe.

You would be incorrect but as we retain our right to control our own borders, that's not relevant. Even the schengen nations are allowed control their borders and have actively done so since this started.

The whole 'eu overlords' thing was brexit rubbish and we should endeavor to research topics more than the average voter did then

06-04-2021 02:23PM

Chuck Norris 2021 wrote: »

https://news.sky.com/story/covid-19-pm-has-not-given-up-on-foreign-holidays-from-17-may-and-holidaymakers-could-use-lateral-flow-tests-12267483

Boris Johnson says he has not "given up" on allowing Britons to jet abroad from 17 May - as he raised the prospect of holidaymakers being able to use cheaper and faster COVID tests on their return to the UK.

Even if it didn't come to pass, isn't it refreshing for people to be told that they are at least trying to allow holidays to go ahead.

Instead of what we get here;

Coronavirus: Summer holidays abroad ‘not realistic’, says Holohan
CMO says Irish people heading for summer ‘of beaches in their own localities’

While I want the airport open again, you are comparing a politician that was very dismissive of covid until he got got it, to a medical advisor that has been very cautious.

JDD · 06-04-2021 02:24PM

Erm "treated like animals" in the Dorcas womans prison and now being put up in a four star hotel? Just as well she didn't end up in Prison in Dubai.

Again, I'm not defending what these women did. I fully expect that they will be kept at the quarantine hotel, by force if necessary, in order to ensure that the law is complied with.

But we have to provide some balance here. Say I give them the benefit of the doubt and put myself in their position. I've gone to Dubai on holidays with my mate and booked some cosmetic surgery to get around the essential travel requirements. Not the most moral thing to do, I agree, but I'm intending to take two covid tests before coming back. Both come back negative. I get to Dubai airport and am told that I have to book into a quarantine hotel and pay 1800 euro. I don't have the money. Much less, I don't have childcare arrangements for another two weeks, but that's besides the point at the moment because they're not letting me on the flight until I get the hotel booked. I stay with my mate for another two days while the Irish consulate uses the financial constraint appeals process, and finally I am booked in and on the plane home. My childcare arrangements are still an issue though. Plus the fact that I only left for a week, and now they're telling me I have to be away from my young children - and I am their only parent - for three weeks. My mam can't take another two weeks off work, plus if I had known that I'd have to be away from them for three weeks I'd have never booked the holiday. Surely if I just appeal when I get back they'll let me go home? My mam has told me outright that I'll have to find someone else to mind them and there isn't anyone else. I'll just refuse to go to the hotel, there's nothing else I can do.

Now, I'm not saying this is the way it happened. But it's a possibility.

There's very little circumstances in Ireland where you are kept in jail overnight before you have been found guilty of a crime. I certainly can't think of any non-violent crime where you'd be denied bail. For all the good reasons that quarantine is in place, it is a very draconian measure. I don't care if it's a four star hotel I'm being kept in - I'm still being denied my liberty. And while the Dochas prison is far nicer than Mountjoy, Mountjoy is like a Victorian poorhouse, so it's a low bar.

For all the good reasons quarantine is in place, I think the constitutional appeal has a chance of winning. The government will have to show that there is really no other alternative (why no electronic tagging for instance?) and I don't think "we don't have the resources to ensure people are complying with home quarantine" will cut it. It'll really depend on what judges they get on the day.

Gael23 · 06-04-2021 02:24PM

Chuck Norris 2021 wrote: »

Correct in the case of Holohan's comments. Nothing has really changed since though.

Borris Johnson's comments are today's.

The EU green certificate in the summer may change it

Chuck Norris 2021 · 06-04-2021 02:27PM

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

While I want the airport open again, you are comparing a politician that was very dismissive of covid until he got got it, to a medical advisor that has been very cautious.

Agreed. I'm looking at it more from the point of view of communication though. The way NPHET, the government and the media are approaching the subject here is all wrong. Every other country in Europe is actively trying to find ways of reopening, and reassuring their people that they are trying to find ways to reopen, while Ireland are actively seeking excuses to not only remain closed, but to close the noose even further. And while doing it they are actively creating division, not only within the country, but also turning us against foreign visitors. There's enough bad news out there, I think they need to become more proactive before we lose all our connectivity (not to mention sanity).

06-04-2021 02:34PM

JDD wrote: »

Again, I'm not defending what these women did. I fully expect that they will be kept at the quarantine hotel, by force if necessary, in order to ensure that the law is complied with.

But we have to provide some balance here. Say I give them the benefit of the doubt and put myself in their position. I've gone to Dubai on holidays with my mate and booked some cosmetic surgery to get around the essential travel requirements. Not the most moral thing to do, I agree, but I'm intending to take two covid tests before coming back. Both come back negative. I get to Dubai airport and am told that I have to book into a quarantine hotel and pay 1800 euro. I don't have the money. Much less, I don't have childcare arrangements for another two weeks, but that's besides the point at the moment because they're not letting me on the flight until I get the hotel booked. I stay with my mate for another two days while the Irish consulate uses the financial constraint appeals process, and finally I am booked in and on the plane home. My childcare arrangements are still an issue though. Plus the fact that I only left for a week, and now they're telling me I have to be away from my young children - and I am their only parent - for three weeks. My mam can't take another two weeks off work, plus if I had known that I'd have to be away from them for three weeks I'd have never booked the holiday. Surely if I just appeal when I get back they'll let me go home? My mam has told me outright that I'll have to find someone else to mind them and there isn't anyone else. I'll just refuse to go to the hotel, there's nothing else I can do.

Now, I'm not saying this is the way it happened. But it's a possibility.

There's very little circumstances in Ireland where you are kept in jail overnight before you have been found guilty of a crime. I certainly can't think of any non-violent crime where you'd be denied bail. For all the good reasons that quarantine is in place, it is a very draconian measure. I don't care if it's a four star hotel I'm being kept in - I'm still being denied my liberty. And while the Dochas prison is far nicer than Mountjoy, Mountjoy is like a Victorian poorhouse, so it's a low bar.

For all the good reasons quarantine is in place, I think the constitutional appeal has a chance of winning. The government will have to show that there is really no other alternative (why no electronic tagging for instance?) and I don't think "we don't have the resources to ensure people are complying with home quarantine" will cut it. It'll really depend on what judges they get on the day.

As I have said to other people.

If you staff in front of a garda and outright tell them you intend to continue breaking the law, you will be arrested and brought to court.

If when in court, you tell the judge that you will continue to break the law, you MUST be remanded in custody. It's not optional, you cannot be given bail without agreeing to follow the law.

Let's also remember, bail was not denied. It was there but they were unwilling to take it up under the conditions it was offered.

Even their high court application included isolating at home instead of the hotel. Again, the law states you just be in the hotel. Even the high court can't overrule that.

They signed the bail when
A, the cash amount was reduced and
B, the only alternative to the hotel was jail.

The night in jail was entirely on them and the bar stool lawyer that is their families.

Remember, the Gardai spent 105 minutes trying to explain this to them prior to even arresting them.

(Fyi, there's no power to use force. They can freely walk out the hotel doors and theft offences are remanded in custody all the time. Violence isn't really a consideration for bail)

I realise you are giving them the benefit of the doubt and trying to see it from their view. That's great and fair but equally, they are adults that made conscious decisions after being told of the consequences of that decision. Not only prior to flying, bitt in Dubai airport, Dublin airport and again in tallaght court.

How far can you go before it's just their own damn fault they ended up in jail on remand?

Hilzabeaatch · 06-04-2021 04:13PM

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

You would be incorrect but as we retain our right to control our own borders, that's not relevant. Even the schengen nations are allowed control their borders and have actively done so since this started.

The whole 'eu overlords' thing was brexit rubbish and we should endeavor to research topics more than the average voter did then

Another poster mentioned mandatory hotel quarantine in Hungary but as far as I can see it's just enforced home quarantine there. So I would be interested to know which other EU countries do this.

06-04-2021 04:20PM

Hilzabeaatch wrote: »

Another poster mentioned mandatory hotel quarantine in Hungary but as far as I can see it's just enforced home quarantine there. So I would be interested to know which other EU countries do this.

Slovakia had it.

Corholio · 06-04-2021 05:05PM

I see RocDoc has launched an antibody test at Dublin Airport, it already has been in Shannon for a few days I think. Will be launching in Cork soon.

Interesting that the test apparently can determine whether an individual has a strong or weak immunity to Covid-19. Has there been some countries needing this particular test before travelling?

faceman · 06-04-2021 05:07PM

JDD wrote: »

I think Hungary has?

Not quite. Hungary’s borders are closed to non residents. Exceptional entry is permitted in some cases. Business travel is permitted in certain circumstances too. Residents and citizens aren’t denied entry.

Quarantine at home applies unless you have no place to stay and you’re off the hook if you produce 2 negative test results.

The only EU country with MHQ regardless of nationality is Ireland.

faceman · 06-04-2021 05:10PM

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

Slovakia had it.

Not for residents or citizens. Quarantine at home applies.

Responder XY · 06-04-2021 05:14PM

Assuming by May that our (Republic of Ireland) county border travel limit will be further lifted - am I right in thinking that a "forigen" holiday to the UK will be possible?

Willing to accept that might have to restrict movement at home (which is basically the same as the entire year just gone anyway) - but I'm very tempted to head over for a week once they open accomodation in May. Any reasons why I can't

dalyboy · 06-04-2021 05:41PM

Responder XY wrote: »

Assuming by May that our (Republic of Ireland) county border travel limit will be further lifted - am I right in thinking that a "forigen" holiday to the UK will be possible?

Willing to accept that might have to restrict movement at home (which is basically the same as the entire year just gone anyway) - but I'm very tempted to head over for a week once they open accomodation in May. Any reasons why I can't

No reason at all
You don’t even need a passport to access UK ( drivers license will suffice).

If you have a passport and make it as far as UK though it begs the question why not go to Spain or France etc via train/car/plane etc at that stage.

06-04-2021 05:46PM

faceman wrote: »

Not for residents or citizens. Quarantine at home applies.

HAD

faceman · 06-04-2021 05:58PM

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

HAD

Huh?

josip · 06-04-2021 06:00PM

faceman wrote: »

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

HAD

Huh?

Headbangers Against Disco

https://acronyms.thefreedictionary.com/HAD

Are we there yet? Your second Travel Megathread (threadbans in OP}

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