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    #2342
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers, Paid Member Posts: 45,568 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    Miley Byrne wrote: »
    Can a quick lineout be taken by the attacking team from their own penalty? Say for example the attacking team have a penalty in the corner on the 5M line. They kick to the corner where their wily scrumhalf (or anyone) collects the ball and immediately throws the ball to the waiting backline?

    I assume a quick lineout is not permissible from your own touchfinder.

    I think a player needs the refs permission to deliberately leave the field of play....

    Don't they?

    Law 6.7


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    #2343
    dregin
    Moderators, Music Moderators Posts: 6,525 Mod ✭✭✭✭dregin


    Lost Ormond wrote: »
    Still is the case. If an incident occurs after a try has been awarded the ref can award a penalty on halfway against the infringing side.

    Is the same to be said for a high tackle as the try is scored or is itnonly activity after the ball's been touched down?


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    #2344
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers, Paid Member Posts: 45,568 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    blackwhite wrote: »
    How often can you think of a situation where a team manages to retain possession for 10 minutes without turning the ball over, knocking it on, infringing at a ruck or getting knocked into touch. Never mind all of this being after 80 minutes of play with fatigued players.

    It's a complete edge case that doesn't really warrant any change in the laws

    i think buttonftws point still applies if someone was binned in say, the 71st minute... can come back on in the 81st minute ie anytime after the clock goes red


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    #2345
    Lost Ormond
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 5,478 Mod ✭✭✭✭Lost Ormond


    Miley Byrne wrote: »
    Can a quick lineout be taken by the attacking team from their own penalty? Say for example the attacking team have a penalty in the corner on the 5M line. They kick to the corner where their wily scrumhalf (or anyone) collects the ball and immediately throws the ball to the waiting backline?

    I assume a quick lineout is not permissible from your own touchfinder.
    It technically could happen but no good ref would allow it to. Management of situation would stop that.
    dregin wrote: »
    Is the same to be said for a high tackle as the try is scored or is itnonly activity after the ball's been touched down?
    A try is scored when the attacking player grounds the ball, and any foul play that occurs after that can result in a PK on halfway
    If ball hasnt been grounded then it isnt a try so cant be a penalty on halfway for something thats happened before a try is scofred


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    #2346
    Shelflife
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,096 ✭✭✭Shelflife


    For the record I think that you are all giving teams waaaaayyyyy too much credit to come up with these scenarios in order to get a player back onto the pitch.

    At amateur level they hardly know the basic laws never mind the minute details that you are all going on about (interesting as it is) at the pro level you can see from the game management in some of the recent matches that such thinking is beyond them and I doubt that many of them are any ways knowledgeable about the laws.

    Ive seen a player, his team down to 14 and they score a try just at HT , he dropped kicked the ball over the bar instead of taking the full 90secs after the try and run down the YC clock, thats a simple case and they couldnt work it out.

    Another team in a final scored with 60secs left on the clock to take a 2 point lead. Kicker asks me how long left I told him 30secs at this stage. He then quickly took the kick, so we had to have a restart, even when they took the restart kick they still played on which almost caught me out as I just assumed they would kick it off the pitch.

    Tactics and basic law knowledge is something that it sadly lacking in the game at all levels !


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    #2347
    Richie_Rich89
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,066 ✭✭✭Richie_Rich89


    If you were running with the ball and managed to get a defender to turn his back to you are you allowed to push him over?


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    #2348
    Pussyhands
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,235 ✭✭✭Pussyhands


    If someone is taking a penalty kick to touch and it bounces in field first, whose lineout is it?


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    #2349
    blackwhite
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 10,001 ✭✭✭✭blackwhite


    Pussyhands wrote: »
    If someone is taking a penalty kick to touch and it bounces in field first, whose lineout is it?

    Bounce doesn't matter, it's still the kicking team's throw.


    Sometimes see it where a penalty is taken quickly with wingers/full back out of position where the kicker looks to get every possible inch from it


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    #2350
    Quin_Dub
    Moderators, Politics Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 17,644 Mod ✭✭✭✭Quin_Dub


    Richie_Rich89 wrote: »
    If you were running with the ball and managed to get a defender to turn his back to you are you allowed to push him over?

    Technically , yes - You are the ball carrier and you are entitled to push past a defender regardless of the direction they are facing.


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    #2351
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 522 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Richie_Rich89 wrote: »
    If you were running with the ball and managed to get a defender to turn his back to you are you allowed to push him over?

    To supplement the above answer, with which I don't disagree:

    (a) Law 9, Foul Play. 9.24 A ball-carrier is permitted to hand off an opponent provided excessive force is not used.

    (b) Definitions: Hand-off: A permitted action, taken by a ball-carrier to fend off an opponent, using the palm of the hand.

    As you can see, the hand-off is permissible "to fend off an opponent". I believe most refs would give a lot of latitude - the fact that an opponent is close enough to make physical contact with your hand would generally entitle you to fend them off. It would not concern me unduly that the player had turned his back to you as you both maneuvred - presumably he is twisting and turning in the attempt to get to grips with you or is in any event in your way as the ball-carrier. You are entitled to push them away using a permissible hand-off (palm of the hand, no excessive force).

    However, you can't just shove him to the ground gratuitously. I would emphasise that if he's close enough to touch he's probably fair game for a hand-off though. You are not expected to "wait" for him to get into position or whatever.

    If this had an effect on play, e.g. if a ball-carrier gratutitously pushed an opponent over who was clearly trying to get into position to mark another player's run versus tackle the ball player, I would strongly consider a penalty for obstruction. Even more so, obviously, if the ball-carrier then off-loaded to another player who the obstructed player might have been able to tackle.

    But the ball carrier is entitled to quite literally fend other players off - that means they can clear them out of their way to make progress themselves, using the hand off. If that's what's happening that's fine.

    When ball-carriers do something illegal in this area it tends to be more of a grasping/pulling actions - grabbing at the non-ball carrier and hauling them down as the ball carrier is tackled even where the opponent so grabbed is not trying to be part of the tackle. This is usually reasonably obvious

    I think it would be much harder to identify as obstruction where a pushing action is used and penalties should be awarded for clear and obvious offences only. Certainly, unless the push resulted in the pushed player going to ground, I would expect little or no impact on play, so play on.


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    #2352
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 56,618 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    I would think it's an unlikely scenario as turning your back on an advancing ball carrier close enough for them to be able to fend you off is likely to be quite dangerous, no?


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    #2353
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 522 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    awec wrote: »
    I would think it's an unlikely scenario as turning your back on an advancing ball carrier close enough for them to be able to fend you off is likely to be quite dangerous, no?


    I can see it happening where there is some twisting and turning and the defender so ends up momentarily facing away with both players in motion. The defender might be running back tracking the ball carrier and another attacker, all players in motion and is somewhat going between the two attackers, again turning/orientating their body one way and the other as they do. If the ball-carrier e.g. dummies, the defender might end up facing away from the ball carrier and facing the other player.

    You could also see it where the ball-carrier checks and the defender has come across and goes past them, again showing their back or primarily that aspect/orientation to the attacker.


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    #2354
    Miley Byrne
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,568 ✭✭✭Miley Byrne


    awec wrote: »
    I would think it's an unlikely scenario as turning your back on an advancing ball carrier close enough for them to be able to fend you off is likely to be quite dangerous, no?

    James Lowe is an expert at this :pac:


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    #2355
    Sangre
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,240 ✭✭✭✭Sangre


    awec wrote: »
    I would think it's an unlikely scenario as turning your back on an advancing ball carrier close enough for them to be able to fend you off is likely to be quite dangerous, no?

    An unlikely but very possible scenario is two players (one attacking and one defending) running back for the same ball which has been kicked through with the defending player winning the foot race. However, the ball lands and bounces back over the defending player's into the hands of the chasing opposition who now has a lovely target of the defending player's back.


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    #2356
    Bazzo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,047 ✭✭✭Bazzo


    How long is it going to take before all tacklers start bending at the hips do you reckon? It's becoming a bit of a spectator shambles at the minute watching 15-20 mins of slowmo replays every match. Is there a simpler way for world rugby to make sure the tackler is never going into a tackle upright as that always seems to be causing the issue.


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    #2357
    Shelflife
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,096 ✭✭✭Shelflife


    It'll be a slow process but we will get there.

    How many tackles in the air do you see nowadays ? and the same with spear tackles. Both effectively red carded out of the game.

    The same will happen with the tackle height.


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    #2358
    Trojan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,426 ✭✭✭✭Trojan


    Shelflife wrote: »
    It'll be a slow process but we will get there.

    How many tackles in the air do you see nowadays ? and the same with spear tackles. Both effectively red carded out of the game.

    The same will happen with the tackle height.

    It will eventually go that way once we get refs to be more consistent - outliers like Mathieu Raynal need to be smacked down by the ref authorities.

    🎙️ The Recognized Authority Podcast



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    #2359
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 25,909 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Saw there that Super Rugby have goal line dropouts for grounding the ball in goal, knock-on in goal and for attacking teams getting held up over the line. Those seem like 3 scenarios that should have very different outcomes surely?


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    #2360
    Captain_Crash
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,122 ✭✭✭Captain_Crash


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    Saw there that Super Rugby have goal line dropouts for grounding the ball in goal, knock-on in goal and for attacking teams getting held up over the line. Those seem like 3 scenarios that should have very different outcomes surely?

    They’re trialing it in the Rainbow Cup also, I’m not a fan of it!


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    #2361
    Lost Ormond
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 5,478 Mod ✭✭✭✭Lost Ormond


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Saw there that Super Rugby have goal line dropouts for grounding the ball in goal, knock-on in goal and for attacking teams getting held up over the line. Those seem like 3 scenarios that should have very different outcomes surely?

    Probably should but reducing scrums in some places could be a good thing.
    What different outcomes would you have for each scenario?


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    #2362
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers, Paid Member Posts: 45,568 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    Anything that encourages play to be more open and space orientated should be a positive in my opinion


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    #2363
    Squidgy Black
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,828 ✭✭✭✭Squidgy Black


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    Saw there that Super Rugby have goal line dropouts for grounding the ball in goal, knock-on in goal and for attacking teams getting held up over the line. Those seem like 3 scenarios that should have very different outcomes surely?

    Idea is to try and encourage more attacking rugby and reduce the number of scrums to keep the ball in play longer.

    Grounding the ball in goal leading to a goal line drop out as opposed to a 22 encourages the attacking team to try kick through a bit more and doesn't reset play back in the attacking teams half.

    Knock-on in goal is pretty much just removing the scrum and allowing the defensive team an easy exit from an attacking situation.

    Held up rewards the defensive team as they're not facing another tight 5m scrum, but also gives the attacking team another chance to run it back by creating a bit more space. Would also discourage some of the constant pick and go in tight spaces for fear of being held up


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    #2364
    BoardsMember
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,823 ✭✭✭BoardsMember


    Just watching re-run of the Dragons v Scarlets game in Rainbow Cup. Scarlets first try, turnover the commentators are calling a rip in the tackle. But the tackled player was on the ground, on his back. They don't show the angle that clearly shows this in this clip: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4iea_mfip2k

    But a fella running back from the Dragons side of the ball rips the ball from the player on that ground. Presume that should be a penalty?


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    #2365
    Captain_Crash
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,122 ✭✭✭Captain_Crash


    BoardsMember wrote: »
    Just watching re-run of the Dragons v Scarlets game in Rainbow Cup. Scarlets first try, turnover the commentators are calling a rip in the tackle. But the tackled player was on the ground, on his back. They don't show the angle that clearly shows this in this clip: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4iea_mfip2k

    But a fella running back from the Dragons side of the ball rips the ball from the player on that ground. Presume that should be a penalty?

    I’m happy to be corrected, but I think so long as the ripper is on his feet and a ruck hasn’t been called*, it’s fair game! But if the ripping player was on the ground too then it’s a pen

    *if a ruck had been called it would have been side entry anyway so the rip wouldn’t have been relevant


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    #2366
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 6,773 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    BoardsMember wrote: »
    Just watching re-run of the Dragons v Scarlets game in Rainbow Cup. Scarlets first try, turnover the commentators are calling a rip in the tackle. But the tackled player was on the ground, on his back. They don't show the angle that clearly shows this in this clip: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4iea_mfip2k

    But a fella running back from the Dragons side of the ball rips the ball from the player on that ground. Presume that should be a penalty?

    That should be a pen Dragons can't rip the ball like that. The player ripping was part of the tackle and never released


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    #2367
    Captain_Crash
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,122 ✭✭✭Captain_Crash


    connemara man wrote: »
    That should be a pen Dragons can't rip the ball like that. The player ripping was part of the tackle and never released

    Ripping in the tackle is fine. The ref even noted it at the time by saying “it was ripped in the tackle” as the ball popped out.

    However, having just checked the law, I have to correct my last reply because once the tackled player is on the ground yes the tackler has to release and the opportunity to rip is gone, but as we know from his mic, the ref was happy that the rip happened before hand. The footage isn’t clear but it looks to me like it was just in time!


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    #2368
    BoardsMember
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,823 ✭✭✭BoardsMember


    Captain_Crash wrote: »
    Ripping in the tackle is fine. The ref even noted it at the time by saying “it was ripped in the tackle” as the ball popped out.

    However, having just checked the law, I have to correct my last reply because once the tackled player is on the ground yes the tackler has to release and the opportunity to rip is gone, but as we know from his mic, the ref was happy that the rip happened before hand. The footage isn’t clear but it looks to me like it was just in time!

    The footage was perfect in the match itself on one of the replays, just not the highlights. The player was flat on his back about to place the ball when it was ripped. But it wasn't by the tackler, but by a player running back. Ruck wasn't called that I heard.


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    #2369
    Shelflife
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,096 ✭✭✭Shelflife


    BoardsMember wrote: »
    The footage was perfect in the match itself on one of the replays, just not the highlights. The player was flat on his back about to place the ball when it was ripped. But it wasn't by the tackler, but by a player running back. Ruck wasn't called that I heard.

    The ball was ripped backwards by the tackle assist. The tackle was completed as the player was on the ground. The ripper should have made a clear release and then gone back in to rip the ball.

    It should have been a pen.


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    #2370
    Captain_Crash
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,122 ✭✭✭Captain_Crash


    Shelflife wrote: »
    The ball was ripped backwards by the tackle assist. The tackle was completed as the player was on the ground. The ripper should have made a clear release and then gone back in to rip the ball.

    It should have been a pen.

    Yeah watched it on a bigger screen this morning, same as the pen Ulster gave away against Connaught that ended up costing them the game. Looks to clearly be involved in the tackle and rips when the player is on the ground!


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    #2371
    BoardsMember
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,823 ✭✭✭BoardsMember


    What i thought too. Weird neither of the commentators questioned it, Dragons didn't seem to complain. Seemed pretty back and white to me first time I saw it, perfect for a captain's challenge, especially when u compare it to the failed challenge later on.


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