Laws Question? Ask here!

Karl Stein

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

A player must not act in a way to make the opposition think that the ball is out of the ruck while it is still in the ruck. Its penalised by a free kick

But what if it is taken out of the ruck and the player feigns a throw then immediately throws for real after the opposing team has stepped offside?

It appeared to me like the quick rush-up defence was easily exploitable for offside.

locum-motion

Karl Stein wrote: »

But what if it is taken out of the ruck and the player feigns a throw then immediately throws for real after the opposing team has stepped offside?

It appeared to me like the quick rush-up defence was easily exploitable for offside.

If the ball has been taken out of the ruck, then it is in open play.
There is no offside in open play.

Karl Stein

locum-motion wrote: »

There is no offside in open play.

So if a player on the opposing team is 4/5 meters in front of where the ball has been thrown/passed from and they intercept it they're not offside?

Offside rules in rugby union are complex. However the basic principle is simple: a player may not derive any advantage from being in front of the ball.

wikipedia.org

irishbucsfan

Karl Stein wrote: »

So if a player on the opposing team is 4/5 meters in front of where the ball has been thrown/passed from and they intercept it they're not offside?

No, that would be perfectly legal. There's no offside in open play.

LeinsterDub

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Could you post a clip of incident? Might be easier to give an answer if can see exactly what happened

Can't seem to find it

awec

Karl Stein wrote: »

But what if it is taken out of the ruck and the player feigns a throw then immediately throws for real after the opposing team has stepped offside?

It appeared to me like the quick rush-up defence was easily exploitable for offside.

A quick rush defence is exploitable for a chip over the top. Once the ball is out of the ruck then it's fair game, otherwise interceptions would be essentially impossible in that scenario.

padser

Karl Stein wrote: »

So if a player on the opposing team is 4/5 meters in front of where the ball has been thrown/passed from and they intercept it they're not offside?

Yeah I've seen that Wikipedia quote before and have had friends with little rugby knowledge also be confused by it.

It's such an oversimplification that it's basically worthless.

You must add to it "when an offside line is created" and specify that "offside lines are created when a tackle is made or a kick is taken".

Then you have a reasonably simple rule that explains lots of scenarios in rugby (albeit not all).

However, the fact remains that in open play you could technically have players spread out like those on a soccer or GAA team. In practice it makes sense to keep to a defensive line most of the time, but that's tactics rather than by law.

.ak

Karl Stein wrote: »

When I was watching the Munster v Scarlets game on Saturday afternoon I couldn't help but think the Scarlets quick anticipatory rush up could be easily exploited by a dummy-pass by the scrum-half quickly followed by a genuine pass to get penalties for offside.

Is there some sort of rule that prevents this play?

Wait, do you mean the scrumhalf pretends to pick the ball up and pass it? If so yes, there is actually a rule against this. Scrumhalf must not dummy pass without the ball.

EDIT: Oops seen Losty already answered that.

rje66

padser wrote: »

You must add to it "when an offside line is created" and specify that "offside lines are created when a tackle is made or a kick is taken".

.

No offside at a tackle just a gate.
So a tackle occurs with no ruck formed and red nine throws out a pass from the tackle, defending blue player retreating from previous phase takes pass from red nine , it's play on as it's deemed open play.
It's one of those ones that looks wrong but isn't.

Swan Curry

I was watching a scrum in the Scotland-Italy match that went near the touchline, and a thought came to me. What happens if a scrum goes over the touchline with the ball still in the scrum?

Losty Dublin

Swan Curry wrote: »

I was watching a scrum in the Scotland-Italy match that went near the touchline, and a thought came to me. What happens if a scrum goes over the touchline with the ball still in the scrum?

The scrum is reset again in this circumstance.

Just to add to this. A scrum shouldn't be moving sideways to allow this to happen bar one off occasions like the scrum in this game. If it's happening more than once then penalties need to be awarded.

Unless your name is Ceorge Glancy

Whosthis

Italy's try under the posts just before half time. The TMO declared that it was a single movement. The try scorer attempts to ground the ball on the inside of the padding, moves around the front of the padding and grounds the ball on the outside of the padding. He may have also switched hands and I believe at least one knee was on the ground from the beginning. how was this deemed a single movement? Am I missing something?

sydthebeat

Whosthis wrote: »

Italy's try under the posts just before half time. The TMO declared that it was a single movement. The try scorer attempts to ground the ball on the inside of the padding, moves around the front of the padding and grounds the ball on the outside of the padding. He may have also switched hands and I believe at least one knee was on the ground from the beginning. how was this deemed a single movement? Am I missing something?

That comes down to opinion.

Personally I'd agree with it

Taco Corp

would someone be able to define what open play is and what the offside rule is in open play?

locum-motion

Taco Corp wrote: »

would someone be able to define what open play is...

When the ball is in play but there isn't a scrum, lineout, ruck, maul or tackle happening, and the ball hasn't just been kicked. EDIT: And a knock on hasn't just occurred!

Taco Corp wrote: »

...and what the offside rule is in open play?

Simple. There is none.

blackwhite

locum-motion wrote: »

When the ball is in play but there isn't a scrum, lineout, ruck, maul or tackle happening, and the ball hasn't just been kicked.



Simple. There is none.

There is one.

After a knock-on, a teammate of the player who knocked on is in an offside position if they are in front of the knock on.

locum-motion

blackwhite wrote: »

There is one.

After a knock-on, a teammate of the player who knocked on is in an offside position if they are in front of the knock on.

Edited my post to reflect this.

lalababa

Is the Ref a 'blade of grass'?

WMitty

Lineout Q. Team A win the ball. On returning to ground the catcher retains possession and the lifters bind on. Team B initially withdraw but on seeing the catcher keeping the ball they send in ONE player to tackle. On tacking contact the catcher transfers the ball. Can the tackler now be pinged for collapsing a maul?

sydthebeat

WMitty wrote: »

Lineout Q. Team A win the ball. On returning to ground the catcher retains possession and the lifters bind on. Team B initially withdraw but on seeing the catcher keeping the ball they send in ONE player to tackle. On tacking contact the catcher transfers the ball. Can the tackler now be pinged for collapsing a maul?

this very thing happened last sunday and there was an article written about it.

http://www.the42.ie/analysis-ireland-england-maul-1968803-Mar2015/

phog

Another LO question.

Team A take the ball and form a maul with Team B, the stay within the 5m and 15m lines and maul. How far can they maul go before the lo is deemed to be over and before players not involved in the LO can join in? Could they go the lenght of the field and score without the LO being called over?

sydthebeat

phog wrote: »

Another LO question.

Team A take the ball and form a maul with Team B, the stay within the 5m and 15m lines and maul. How far can they maul go before the lo is deemed to be over and before players not involved in the LO can join in? Could they go the lenght of the field and score without the LO being called over?

Lineout ends.
When a ruck or maul develops in a lineout, and all the feet of all the players in the ruck or maul move beyond the line of touch, the lineout ends.

doesnt this cover it?

locum-motion

sydthebeat wrote: »

doesnt this cover it?

Yes, it does.

Interested Observer

locum-motion wrote: »

Simple. There is none.

(for context, the question was about offside in open play)

Of course there is. If your team is in possession of the ball you have to stay behind the ball/ball carrier or else you're offside.

locum-motion

Taco Corp wrote: »

would someone be able to define what open play is and what the offside rule is in open play?

Here's a fuller answer to that question.

Offside lines in rugby come and go very quickly, and at different times different players can have different offside lines applying to them. In most cases, they run parallel to the try lines, but at line out time there are some offside lines that are parallel to the touchlines.

For example:

1. At kick off:

• The kicker's team have to be behind the ball. (Note: NOT behind the halfway line; the kicker may opt to retreat a little. His teammates must retreat too.)
• The receiving team must be at least 10m away from the halfway line. (Their offside line doesn't move forward if the kicker opts to retreat.)
• As soon as the ball has been kicked, both of these offside lines vanish.

2. At a tackle:

• Tackler must try to roll away far enough not to prevent others playing the ball; once he has done so, he may get up and becomes subject to the same offside line as his teammates.
• Tackled player must play, pass or place the ball, and he may then get up; once he has done so, he becomes subject to the same offside line as his teammates.
• The offside line runs through the ball.
• When someone picks up the ball, the offside line vanishes.

3. At a scrum:

• One player not in the scrum may be at the side of it. For that player, on the team that doesn't have the ball at its feet, the offside line runs through the ball as long as he stays on that side of the scrum. If he opts to nip round the other side, he becomes subject to the same line as the rest of his team. (On the team that does have the ball at their feet, for that player, I'm not sure if there actually is one, but I suppose there must be.)
• Players in the scrum must remain in it. If they opt to leave, then they become subject to the same line as the rest of the team. (Think this law may have changed - for U19s at least)
• For everyone else, the offside line runs through the back of the hindmost foot of their teammates who are in the scrum.
• When the scrum ends, the offside lines vanish.

4. At the lineout:

• One man from throwing team outside the touchline at the line of touch. One man from other team is allowed in a 5m square area with a corner at the same point that I just mentioned.
• Players from both teams who are in the lineout must be between the 5- and 15-metre lines, and 0.5m their own side of the line of touch.
• One player from each team may be inside a 10m square, between the 5- and 10-metre lines on their own side of the line of touch.
• For everyone else, the offside line is 10m away from the line of touch.
• When the lineout ends, the offside lines vanish.

5. At a ruck or maul:

• For anyone not in the ruck or maul, the offside line runs through the back of the hindmost foot of their teammates who are in the ruck or maul.
• Additionally, anyone wishing to join the ruck or maul must come in through 'the gate'. This is a part of the offside line that is as wide as the ruck or maul is.
• When the ruck or maul ends, the offside lines vanish.

6. When a kick happens:

• For the receiving team, there is no offside line.
• For the kicking team, the kicker is de facto onside and remains so even if he advances.
• His teammates behind him when he kicks, are onside and remain so even when they advance.
• Any other teammates are actually in an offside position, but as long as they're retreating and not interfering with play, they haven't committed an offense to be pinged for yet. For these players, the offside line runs through the forward foot of the onside player closest to the opposition's tryline. This offside line moves as fast as that player moves.

7. When a knock-on happens, and advantage is being played:

• For the offending team, the offside line is where the knock on happened.

8. In all cases above, if the offside line would be behind the players own tryline, then the tryline becomes the offside line instead.



9. There's a couple of other situations I didn't include, like 22 dropouts & penalty kicks, for example.



At all other times (unless there's something I've forgotten*), it is "open play", and there is no offside line.














* Pleeeeeease, let me know what I've forgotten!

Interested Observer

There is a whole numbered law about offside in general play, law 11. Look it up please.

You've left out some detail on the kicking bit above too, if your teammate kicks and you're in front of him the 10m rule applies.

Losty Dublin

To add......

locum-motion wrote: »

3. At a scrum:

• One player not in the scrum may be at the side of it. For that player, on the team that doesn't have the ball at its feet, the offside line runs through the ball as long as he stays on that side of the scrum. If he opts to nip round the other side, he becomes subject to the same line as the rest of his team. (On the team that does have the ball at their feet, for that player, I'm not sure if there actually is one, but I suppose there must be.)
• Players in the scrum must remain in it. If they opt to leave, then they become subject to the same line as the rest of the team. (Think this law may have changed - for U19s at least)
• For everyone else, the offside line runs through the back of the hindmost foot of their teammates who are in the scrum.
• When the scrum ends, the offside lines vanish.

There are actually five offside lines at the scrum!!

Two are formed 5 metres behind the hindmost foot of the scrums. These apply to all players who are not in the scrum.

One is formed on the ball and applies to the scrum half of the team who win the ball in the scrum. Both feet of the scrum half cannot be in front of the ball while it is the scrum.

Two are formed on the rearmost foot of the scrum. These apply to the scrum halves only; neither player can go beyond this line or have both feet in front of the ball during the scrum.

For the record, the ball can only be fed in from the left hand side of the scrum. Both scrum halves must be on this side. The team not putting in don't have to send up a SH. If they don't then the SH must fall back 5 metres with his team. Players who form the scrum aren't offside while bound during the scrum.

locum-motion wrote: »

4. At the lineout:


[*]For everyone else, the offside line is 10m away from the line of touch.
[*]When the lineout ends, the offside lines vanish.
[/LIST]

At a ruck or maul formed from a line out, the rearmost foot of the loose scrum becomes the offside line for those players approaching same. The other offside's at line out still apply and players not involved at the line out must remain 10 metres back. Until the ruck/maul ends or the rearmost foot of same crosses the line of touch, the line out offside lines still apply.

Easy to see how it is so confusing to a bystander or even a player!!

Dave_The_Sheep

Interested Observer wrote: »

You've left out some detail on the kicking bit above too, if your teammate kicks and you're in front of him the 10m rule applies.

This was one I didn't know about. I thought that once the kicker passed you, you were onside. Never knew you had to retreat 10m as well.

padser

Dave_The_Sheep wrote: »

This was one I didn't know about. I thought that once the kicker passed you, you were onside. Never knew you had to retreat 10m as well.

I didn't know that either. Is it definitely true?

.ak

Yes it's true. Someone was pinged for it over the weekend, can't remember was it in our game?