Civil service career progression

Forthebuzz · 05-04-2021 9:19am #1

As someone who is in the CS a little while myself, I feel that I should already know this but a friend has got an offer off CO panel and needs to give an answer on Tuesday.

They would be taking a significant pay cut and wanted to know if there is any data on average times to move up grade by grade up to say AP from CO.

They are on a management track in private sector with a clear progression structure but her place of work is not very family friendly which is the current CS draw.

SouthWesterly · 05-04-2021 9:33am

Someone I know went from Co to ap in 18 months through open Competition.

A girl I worked with from Co to heo in 3 years internally.

Awkwardstroke · 05-04-2021 9:40am

In the old days it might have taken some time to move up from the bottom ranks of the CS yet now (with decent private sector experience) this can be much faster.

For example, you used to have to get promoted each time to the next step (SO etc) before been Eligable for the next promotion yet now a CO can apply and get promoted in a HEO competition. I think the probationary periods have also reduced in the last decade.

However the CS is different than the private sector and to get promoted you need to “play the game” as regards the competency based Interview system...yet good private sector examples are a help here.

Forthebuzz wrote: »

As someone who is in the CS a little while myself, I feel that I should already know this but a friend has got an offer off CO panel and needs to give an answer on Tuesday.

They would be taking a significant pay cut and wanted to know if there is any data on average times to move up grade by grade up to say AP from CO.

They are on a management track in private sector with a clear progression structure but her place of work is not very family friendly which is the current CS draw.

tea and coffee · 05-04-2021 9:46am

It's possible to jump grades, but you are constricted to waiting for a competition to come up, going through all the stages and being successful.
I would be preparing for 2 years at CO anyway unless she gets through the external process faster - has she tried any of the other open competitions?

ParkRunner · 05-04-2021 9:47am

It can be done and there should be plenty opportunities with lots of retirements happening and expected. At AP grade there isn’t flexi time at the moment at least so HEO is probably best grade for family friendly conditions. AP level can also regularly require additional hours depending on the position itself. Pay is good at that level but there’s a lot of public sector specific stuff to learn (PQs, FOI etc) so in my opinion it’s good to work up the grades and get hands on experience at as much as possible rather than being that boss who doesn’t have good experience

Forthebuzz · 05-04-2021 10:00am

tea and coffee wrote: »

It's possible to jump grades, but you are constricted to waiting for a competition to come up, going through all the stages and being successful.
I would be preparing for 2 years at CO anyway unless she gets through the external process faster - has she tried any of the other open competitions?

No, unfortunately she missed the EO last year. I did think that would have been a more appropriate entry level for her

Forthebuzz · 05-04-2021 10:03am

SouthWesterly wrote: »

Someone I know went from Co to ap in 18 months through open Competition.

A girl I worked with from Co to heo in 3 years internally.

Wow CO to AP in 18 months is a huge jump! I presume significant private sector experience before hand?

tea and coffee · 05-04-2021 10:04am

Well, I in that case, there is likely to be another EO next year, so not too long to wait!
I'm still a bit twitchy about the whole thing- I joined just before the moratorium, so there was no competitions for a long time.
But now they roll over, so its a much quicker progression.
I've seen people quite easily go from CO to AP within 5 to 6 years and that isn't these meteoric jumps either. A year at CO, and 2 years at both EO and HEO is quite realistic imo.

SouthWesterly · 05-04-2021 1:35pm

Forthebuzz wrote: »

Wow CO to AP in 18 months is a huge jump! I presume significant private sector experience before hand?

On the contrary. He went from Co to heo to ap. Only in his 20's. He was just very good in the competitions
Nice guy as well and he kept that as he progressed.

Chaos Black · 05-04-2021 2:38pm

I would not be as upbeat on promotion prospects as some here, you can climb the ladder fast but it is a combination of luck, timing with competitions and individual ability to progress through each possible stage of the competitions (verbal+numerical+job simulation tests/video interview(s)/competency interview(s), presentation(s)).

To expand on that:

Luck - Where you end up in Departments is often a spin of the wheel. Not all Departments are equal in scope for opportunities due to size, importance or at least perception. For example, whether true or not a lot of people appear to believe that if you're in the Department of Taoiseach, Public Expenditure or Finance that it is easier to progress in interdepartmental/open competitions compared to a less prominent Department such as the Department of Rural and Community Development.

Timing with competitions - You cannot apply for interdepartmental competitions for two years when you join. The open competitions have run regularly the past few years, CO/EO/AO is about every year, HEO is usually interdepartmental and less regular (every 2/3 years?). Honestly if new to the Civil Service, you are more likely to progress these days from CO, EO to AO then HEO. AO is effectively the new HEO grade in a lot of Departments, same job but cheaper at the outset as the AO grade starts much lower on the pay scale. Regardless, the timing of the competitions is a major factor in progressing.

Individual ability - Speaks for itself, you have to be good at each stage of the competitions. What you work at on a daily basis is important of course, but no use if you can't score high enough on the tests to get in front of someone at an interview. At interviews, they are competency based and can take a bit of practice.

I hope that is not overly negative, you can progress fast in the Civil Service, however I would suggest 2/3 above points are somewhat out of your hands.

Awkwardstroke · 05-04-2021 5:47pm

Some good points in this reply, one aspect not mentioned so far is third level qualifications. If you have a degree or masters in a relevant area it can also be a help.

Chaos Black wrote: »

I would not be as upbeat on promotion prospects as some here, you can climb the ladder fast but it is a combination of luck, timing with competitions and individual ability to progress through each possible stage of the competitions (verbal+numerical+job simulation tests/video interview(s)/competency interview(s), presentation(s)).

To expand on that:

Luck - Where you end up in Departments is often a spin of the wheel. Not all Departments are equal in scope for opportunities due to size, importance or at least perception. For example, whether true or not a lot of people appear to believe that if you're in the Department of Taoiseach, Public Expenditure or Finance that it is easier to progress in interdepartmental/open competitions compared to a less prominent Department such as the Department of Rural and Community Development.

Timing with competitions - You cannot apply for interdepartmental competitions for two years when you join. The open competitions have run regularly the past few years, CO/EO/AO is about every year, HEO is usually interdepartmental and less regular (every 2/3 years?). Honestly if new to the Civil Service, you are more likely to progress these days from CO, EO to AO then HEO. AO is effectively the new HEO grade in a lot of Departments, same job but cheaper at the outset as the AO grade starts much lower on the pay scale. Regardless, the timing of the competitions is a major factor in progressing.

Individual ability - Speaks for itself, you have to be good at each stage of the competitions. What you work at on a daily basis is important of course, but no use if you can't score high enough on the tests to get in front of someone at an interview. At interviews, they are competency based and can take a bit of practice.

I hope that is not overly negative, you can progress fast in the Civil Service, however I would suggest 2/3 above points are somewhat out of your hands.

Augme · 05-04-2021 9:45pm

A huge amount will depend on how good they are at interviews(selling themselves) and their ability in tests.

Tell them not to factor in their ability to do the job as that is irrelevant in the civil service when it comes to promotion.

Plenty of excellent people in the civil service who struggle at interviews and don't progress. Similar plenty of not very good people who excel at interviews and do.

Addle · 05-04-2021 10:20pm

All promotion opportunities are very competitive.
You could quickly end up very disappointed and bitter if you take a job as a CO and expect to be easily promoted. It happens, but there are no guarantees.
I don’t know if I’d risk it.

Forthebuzz · 05-04-2021 11:28pm

Addle wrote: »

All promotion opportunities are very competitive.
You could quickly end up very disappointed and bitter if you take a job as a CO and expect to be easily promoted. It happens, but there are no guarantees.
I don’t know if I’d risk it.

I'm similarly torn on advice since she asked, I myself have moved up a couple of grades reasonably quickly but I feel like a lot of that has been luck and good timing. I don't want to tell her it will work out the same for her

gmisk · 06-04-2021 10:31am

I think maybe take into account there could be a moratorium on all but essential recruitment in place pretty soon.
I joined as a CO about 15 years ago got extremely comfortable for too long (at that grade), but am now an AP, but it can take time and you need to interview well, skill up as much as you can. Definitely if in correct department you can progress really quickly if bright and driven.

floorpie · 06-04-2021 11:22am

Is it wise to attempt to progress very quickly? Is there a risk of failing probation at AP because you're too new to understand, e.g., the culture of the civil service?

As far as I can see on boards.ie, you can be put semi-randomly into a serious deep end even at EO, so I imagine AP after 18 months could be a nightmare regardless of previous experience.

06-04-2021 11:29am

A lot depends on your placement, yes

In general, id advise the person that many good ppl stay at CO a long time and many good ppl progress quickly (especially these days)

So much is context in what the job you are in and previous experience provides you with, so much is ability at the application process, so much is personal capability besides

A moratorium may be likely in the next few years- dont rely at all on flying up any ranks, but if you back yourself based on the above then its possible

Awkwardstroke · 06-04-2021 11:33am

I don't know of many people who fail a probation in the civil service! unless you really do the dog on it....not turning up to work etc

whampiri · 07-04-2021 6:04am

Awkwardstroke wrote: »

I don't know of many people who fail a probation in the civil service! unless you really do the dog on it....not turning up to work etc

Failing probation is absolutely a thing and is possible.
I'd always recommend the cs from the point of view of work life balance however this becomes harder to maintain as you go up the grades and you become more responsible for people, projects, processes and units. Certainly at AP there's no flexi and you'll find yourself putting in more time than "normal" but the salary is good imo. You'll never be rich in the CS but you will have a secure job.

In relation to promotion, it very much depends on the individual. I know people who went from CO to AP in less than 6 months through open competition and then there's people who take years to make moves through the grades. Skipping grades is possible but not easy without prior experience as the interviews are competency based. I wouldn't take a role in the CS purely based on the assumption that progress if a certainty but instead take it based on the work life balance, security of the role and the varied and interesting work that you can do across multiple depts during a career.

Awkwardstroke · 07-04-2021 7:05am

Do you personally know of anyone who failed a probation? In over 20 years with the CS, I haven't....that includes entry grades and promotion probation's

Of course it is "possible" yet in practice...I would be surprised if more than 1% of probation failed!

I have however heard of a case of someone who was promoted yet preferred their previous (lower grade) and returned to it.

I would agree that promotions in the Cs can't be taken for granted, as you see new entrants with higher & higher levels of qualifications all the time...and lots of people are keen to get ahead.

whampiri · 07-04-2021 7:13am

Awkwardstroke wrote: »

Do you personally know of anyone who failed a probation? In over 20 years with the CS, I haven't....that includes entry grades and promotion probation's

Of course it is "possible" yet in practice...I would be surprised if more than 1% of probation failed!

I have however heard of a case of someone who was promoted yet preferred their previous (lower grade) and returned to it.

I would agree that promotions in the Cs can't be taken for granted, as you see new entrants with higher & higher levels of qualifications all the time...and lots of people are keen to get ahead.

Yes, I know a number and in one case I determined that a probationer should have their employment terminated. It's not a pleasant thing to do but the person continuously underperformed despite being provided with supports. So to say it doesn't happen is incorrect. People just don't hear about them. I mean who goes around saying that they were let go for being "crap"?

It's rarer for a person on a promotion to fail probation as they're normally capable and aware of cultures etc., but again, I'm aware of people failing it or as you mention, reverting to a previous grade.

Awkwardstroke · 07-04-2021 7:53am

Interesting to hear of such cases, yet to be fair they are the exception to the rule.

generally the civil service recruitment process is pretty competitive, so should weed out weak applicants.

Nigel Fairservice · 07-04-2021 11:33pm

Augme wrote: »

Plenty of excellent people in the civil service who struggle at interviews and don't progress. Similar plenty of not very good people who excel at interviews and do.

There were plenty of people in my last department who I would put in this category. Very able and very knowledgeable people but just not good at testing and interviews. People get worn down by the process after a while and eventually just stop trying. I've met others who were complete bluffers but were good at interviews and testing and got promoted. It was annoying at times because you knew there were much better and capable people about the place.

Geographical location is also an important consideration when it comes to career progression. I think if you're in a regional location it is going to be harder to get promoted unless you're prepared to travel or relocate. I'm in a regional location and as far as I'm aware there are two POs in the county and less than 10 AP posts. I'm not sure of the number of HEO/EO posts across the county but there wouldn't be a great deal of them either. I imagine competition for these roles is intense.

Awkwardstroke · 09-04-2021 10:14am

While I understand the frustration on some with the current CG promotion interview process, its difficult to imagine a better one. Three comments on this:

1. I know of colleagues who paid for some professional training/mock interviews and their scores improved considerably over previous competitions.

2. Reflect well on competencies for competitions, if you are weak on some for specific headings (communication etc), reflect on how you could work on having better examples next time around.

3. Consider doing additional courses to strengthen up your case for future promotions.

floorpie · 09-04-2021 10:43am

I think the configuration of panels and examination of competences are very fair. The aptitude tests are arbitrary gauges of ability and should be done away with somehow, imo. In the same few weeks through several open competitions, I've come 1-3 multiple times, and then ~2000, with the same cut-e tests. I feel they mostly assess silly things like your stamina in the moment, and I imagine that they're difficult and demoralising for certain people who are otherwise capable.

Awkwardstroke · 09-04-2021 11:17am

I think there is a distinction here between....entry competitions to the Civil service and internal CS promotion interviews (which is what I was replying to above).

I also have some reservations on the computer test aspect of open CS competitions (ie. situational judgement...I have done poorly despite working in the CS for years)...but the other aspects I think are fair.

Addle · 09-04-2021 2:16pm

I just don’t think anyone should feel entitled to a job/promotion.

I’ve had the misfortune of working with some very bitter people who had unrealistic expectations that failed to materialise, and instead they made their colleagues working lives very difficult.
Expectation is the root of all heartache!

u2fanatic · 11-04-2021 9:38pm

hi folk's. I'm in the CS a few year's. I'm a CO and at the minute I have no interest in applying for a promotion but I'm wondering would it be worth going back to college part time and getting a degree?
Basically I'm asking would having a degree enchance my chances of getting a HEO or even an AP position down the line.
EO wouldn't be an option for me. (financially I would lose money due to allowances I get in my current role)

whampiri · 11-04-2021 9:53pm

If you don't have a degree, it's absolutely worthwhile going back to college even if it's just for your own expansion of knowledge.

Trying to get from CO to HEO is EXTREMELY difficult as you will find it hard to meet the competency requirement for staff management along with others.

Going from CO to AP is even rarer. I've a lot of years done in the CS, in HR, and only know of 1 person who made that jump and even then it was through an external competition. I don't mean to slight your drive but I'd concentrate on EO first, and while I know you say that you can't afford it because of allowances, it certainly will provide you with an opportunity to gain the competencies.

u2fanatic · 11-04-2021 9:59pm

whampiri wrote: »

If you don't have a degree, it's absolutely worthwhile going back to college even if it's just for your own expansion of knowledge.

Trying to get from CO to HEO is EXTREMELY difficult as you will find it hard to meet the competency requirement for staff management along with others.

Going from CO to AP is even rarer. I've a lot of years done in the CS, in HR, and only know of 1 person who made that jump and even then it was through an external competition. I don't mean to slight your drive but I'd concentrate on EO first, and while I know you say that you can't afford it because of allowances, it certainly will provide you with an opportunity to gain the competencies.

Thanks for the advice. I'll certainly be going back for a degree but i can't see myself going for EO anytime soon though.

Rikand · 11-04-2021 10:04pm

I had an open EO interview recently. They referred back to my masters from 8 years ago quite a bit and I passed the interview fairly comfortably in the end. I'd like to think it was my winning personality that got me over the line, but having the degree and the masters definitely helped

Forthebuzz · 11-04-2021 10:28pm

u2fanatic wrote: »

hi folk's. I'm in the CS a few year's. I'm a CO and at the minute I have no interest in applying for a promotion but I'm wondering would it be worth going back to college part time and getting a degree?
Basically I'm asking would having a degree enchance my chances of getting a HEO or even an AP position down the line.
EO wouldn't be an option for me. (financially I would lose money due to allowances I get in my current role)

I'm not saying that a degree won't help but I have done 2 heo interviews in last few years, one without having finished college and one after I finished and they didn't really make a point out of either. They were just concentrating on the competencies. Even for self development competency they were more concerned about what I would do in future not what I had already done

doc22 · 12-04-2021 12:05am

I have never been asked about my qualifications at CS interview and any comment was in passing not the focus of a competency

12-04-2021 12:17am

I think youd want the background level of a qualification of a level 6 or 7 anyways to be competitive

Firstly, for yourself, to experience it and to give yourself that platform and tbh so as not to have it a "thing" in your own head.

Secondly if relevant it can help directly in answers. And it should certainly help you in your work so as to open up the type of opportunities and expertise/self development that can indirectly give a basis for good answers

And even if it doesnt necessarily feed into a competency directly, the lack of it can be a gap too- the interviewers are only human and in analysing the cv/form in advance and during the 40 minutes they can form a general impression that feeds into their discussion and marking

redmgar · 13-04-2021 12:36pm

The CS is not a place for quick progression in the vast majority of cases.

You have to wait for a campaign to appear every year or two, and they are very slow moving from start to finish.
And if you miss qualification from one stage, you are back waiting for another campaign in one or two years.

Obviously there are exceptions, but the vast majority stay at each level for at least 2-3 years.

Awkwardstroke · 14-04-2021 8:14am

2-3 years at each level, would mean someone could go from CO to HEO in 6-9 years (which is not bad). Of course it could take longer, yet the problem today is that everyone thinks they should be promoted yet the pyramid style staffing structure means that these processes are competitive (and rightly so).

doc22 · 14-04-2021 2:36pm

Awkwardstroke wrote: »

2-3 years at each level, would mean someone could go from CO to HEO in 6-9 years (which is not bad). Of course it could take longer, yet the problem today is that everyone thinks they should be promoted yet the pyramid style staffing structure means that these processes are competitive (and rightly so).

Depends on the department, in a back-office operational area an HEO could have 20-30 staff reporting to them. While other areas could have more APs than CO's

ThumbTaxed · 14-04-2021 6:39pm

2-3 years and then promotion. You would run out of grades in 20 years. 2 to 3 years would be the exception, not the norm.

redmgar · 14-04-2021 8:37pm

ThumbTaxed wrote: »

2-3 years and then promotion. You would run out of grades in 20 years. 2 to 3 years would be the exception, not the norm.

This is for the people that get promoted, obviously more people stay on co or eo. I'd say it's rare for someone who has been a co for 8 years or so to get promoted.

ThumbTaxed · 15-04-2021 10:12am

redmgar wrote: »

This is for the people that get promoted, obviously more people stay on co or eo. I'd say it's rare for someone who has been a co for 8 years or so to get promoted.

Sorry but it doesn't make sense. The pyramid I'm civil service can be very broad with few at AP or PO grades. People need to be realistic

15-04-2021 10:36am

Promotion every 8 years would see a CO go to PO eight points up the scale after 40 years, unless you jumped to A/Sec for the last year for the craic

So clearly the steady progression model is a little simplistic

I know many COs who were at that level 8 years and longer who got that first promotion and followed it quickly on to further advancement.

You find plenty feel that HEO/AP is a good balance, depending on the role its definitely more career-driven people that move beyond that.

The wider economic cycle is a massive part of that function.

The opportunities COs get (and give themselves) to show well in competition is another.

If a CO is feeling they arent getting enough opportunity, varied work, education in their role to at least advance their competencies every year they should be raising this with their management.

But in general I would also take issue with any expectations that said "you should move up the ladder every x years" as there's too many variables to make any such statement really

floorpie · 15-04-2021 10:37am

ThumbTaxed wrote: »

Sorry but it doesn't make sense. The pyramid I'm civil service can be very broad with few at AP or PO grades. People need to be realistic

What about his post doesn't make sense?

Separate point, it's not very broad after CO. There are almost as many POs as AOs for example, approx same number of APs and HEOs, and twice as many APs as AOs. Here are the numbers in 2020:

PO: 1,539
AP: 4,848
HEO: 5,212
AO: 2,555
EO: 8,987

15-04-2021 11:05am

AO isnt imo to be used as a comparator on a pyramid like that

Its a grade not-quite analogous to HEO on a pyramid but with quite different progression and expectations- arises, as i understand it, from a rather historically-grounded notion of what HEO work is and where HEOs should be recruited from and the natural ceilings on their progression

All quite dated now, but for pyramid counting purposes (limited in itself as it really depends on unit/dept) youd say CO to EO to (HEO+AO) to AP etc

And the numbers would certainly show a bulge in the middle but also some grades are internally recruited more than externally, some are much more likely to be filled by general panel and others are subject to a lot of specialist roles, theres no one simple way to look at it tbh

ThumbTaxed · 15-04-2021 11:15am

floorpie wrote: »

What about his post doesn't make sense?

Separate point, it's not very broad after CO. There are almost as many POs as AOs for example, approx same number of APs and HEOs, and twice as many APs as AOs. Here are the numbers in 2020:

PO: 1,539
AP: 4,848
HEO: 5,212
AO: 2,555
EO: 8,987

Fine you are right. Most COs will be POs in year 10 according to your calculations. ðŸ™ˆ

floorpie · 15-04-2021 11:31am

ThumbTaxed wrote: »

Fine you are right. Most COs will be POs in year 10 according to your calculations. &#55357;&#56904;

I don't know about timelines but at least there should be opportunities for progression at every grade, assuming the structure stays the same.

New joiners at every grade are way older and more experienced on average too, compared to 10 years ago. I think it's reasonable to expect quick progression for some proportion.

doc22 · 15-04-2021 11:35am

2500 AOs, were are they all hiding, revenue makeup 6500 of the 35k in civil service and have only 240 AOs across TAX, Legal,IT and general areas and they tend to be one of the bigger takers of AO's.

ThumbTaxed · 15-04-2021 12:12pm

doc22 wrote: »

2500 AOs, were are they all hiding, revenue makeup 6500 of the 35k in civil service and have only 240 AOs across TAX, Legal,IT and general areas and they tend to be one of the bigger takers of AO's.

Also just 110 POs out of >6,500 staff. The perception of relatively easy promotion is complete nonsense. A lot in the middle fighting for a few positions with each other and the open market.

redmgar · 15-04-2021 12:19pm

ThumbTaxed wrote: »

Fine you are right. Most COs will be POs in year 10 according to your calculations. &#55357;&#56904;

I meant for the staff that do get promoted, they would stay on average 2-3 years at co and then eo level. Obviously not everyone gets promoted.I would say that there is a longer average time spent at heo for those who get promoted.

Rikand · 15-04-2021 1:27pm

redmgar wrote: »

I meant for the staff that do get promoted, they would stay on average 2-3 years at co and then eo level. Obviously not everyone gets promoted.I would say that there is a longer average time spent at heo for those who get promoted.

A lot would stay at heo too because of the flexi time and overtime advantages over AP

Eevie McGreevy · 15-04-2021 1:53pm

Can anyone confirm what grades can apply for worksharing?

prettyboy81 · 15-04-2021 10:35pm

DSP circa 6500 staff with 55-60 POs.

Civil service career progression

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