COVID-19: Vaccine and testing procedures Megathread Part 3 - Read OP

MerlinSouthDub · 05-04-2021 01:40PM

This debate about teachers being vaccinated is farcical. Even if teachers were prioritised, they wouldn't be able to start vaccinating them until mid to end of May (or thereabouts). It takes a few weeks for the vaccine to be effective. Teachers would be on holidays by the time the vaccine is of any use to them.

05-04-2021 01:40PM

6 wrote: »

Teachers should be vaccinated asap. So should anyone working in an environment where they are mingling with a lot of others. Plus add in the factor that students will not be vaccinated, which makes it makes even more sense to get them jabs asap.

Why should a 20 year teacher be
vaccinated before someone in their 50s.

Hundreds of people in their 50 years have died of covid in ireland?

How many 20 year old teachers?

lausp · 05-04-2021 01:42PM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Hopefully not.

Twenty and thirty year old teachers are absoloutely livid that 60 year olds are going to be vaccinated before them. I actually feel sick even listening to them. Tony Holihan has alot to answer for. In that first list he approved he actually wanted 18 year olds vaccinated before 54 year olds. He also mentioned teachers. His fingerprints are also over why all over 70s are not vaccinated yet by limiting them to pfzier moderna.What we should have done is cut and paste what uk were doing. They look in complete control. I hope tony holihan is gone for good. He made pigs ear of vaccination decisions.

I'm not a teacher but I'm sick of people saying they shouldn't be getting vaccinated early.

They did exactly that in the USA because they recognised that they are at a higher risk of exposure. Secondary teachers are exposed to about 180 teenagers per day in a classroom (classes of 30 X 6 classes per day). That is potentially 180 families.

On top of this there is no social distancing in school hallways where a thousand students are milling around hallways and people are squeezing past each other.

People go on about shop staff etc but it's a completely different scenario. Those staff may interact with a customer for a minute. They are not in an enclosed room for up to an hour with 30 other people.

Not every teacher is in their 20s and 30s either. I also think crèche staff should be vaccinated too.

People love the teacher bashing here but in this case I agree with them.

iamwhoiam · 05-04-2021 01:42PM

6 wrote: »

You'll never please everyone though. Probably why they've gone the age route. Limit the moaning. Can't blame them.

Going the age group will also be quicker , I can only imagine the administration needed if it went by occupations . Then what teachers would be first and who would have to wait etc etc .,
Having said all that I think SNAs in special schools should have been done with healthcare workers and long before HSE admin staff who never clap eyes on a patient

Stark · 05-04-2021 01:46PM

MerlinSouthDub wrote: »

Teachers would be on holidays by the time the vaccine is of any use to them.

Maybe that's their point :pac:

Chris_5339762 · 05-04-2021 01:48PM

The government won't bow to pressure and vaccinate teachers simply because it would impact the "schools are safe" mantra that they have been following all of this time.

CrabRevolution · 05-04-2021 01:48PM

Martina1991 wrote: »

It isn't smart at all. The evidence that the antigen tests they are using are effective against identifying infectious cases is very weak.

They use a lateral flow test made by Innova.
Innova is made in the USA but isn't even used there because it didn't reach the FDA’s stated requirements of 80% sensitivity & 99% specificity for home tests available by prescription. These requirements prevent lower performing tests from entering the market.

Mass testing with antigen tests is not a good idea. That is not what they were made for. To do this at such a scale is a waste of money for the number of cases it'll detect.
The UK have spent £1.7 billion on Innova tests to date.

They bought millions of them when they were trialling them in Liverpool and Birmingham and the data was quite poor but they went with them anyway. The only data on the accuracy of Innova for mass testing is from 70 cases - and it only found 28 . Its crazy.

The UK got nearly everything wrong when it comes to testing. But they've turned it around with their vaccinations.

The praise for mass antigen testing seems to be along the same lines as First Past the Post voting; "It doesn't matter that it can give very inaccurate results, what matters is it's fast"

eagle eye · 05-04-2021 01:48PM

Stoolie wrote:

Thanks . A buddy was tested at 4 yesterday and got results earlier. Negative thank God. Could this mean bad news for me ? Sorry , but am sh***ting it !

No, it's got nothing to do with being negative or positive.
My wife and child both got tested at the same time, I got kids result after twelve hours and my wife's result after 16, both negative.

Tenzor07 · 05-04-2021 01:49PM

6 wrote: »

You'll never please everyone though. Probably why they've gone the age route. Limit the moaning. Can't blame them.

My understanding is that because the HSE don't have an up to date I.T system, no Databases or applications with patients details that trying to organise the cohorts into specific groups is like trying to piece together a large jigsaw puzzle with no picture on the box... so all they can do now is put it together piece by piece using ages....

Completely shambolic by the Government/HSE, why haven't they been working on Databases, applications, websites and other systems for Doctors over the past year we've all been locked down?

CrabRevolution · 05-04-2021 01:50PM

Tenzor07 wrote: »

My understanding is that because the HSE don't have an up to date I.T system, no Databases or applications with patients details that trying to organise the cohorts into specific groups is like trying to piece together a large jigsaw puzzle with no picture on the box... so all they can do now is put it together piece by piece using ages....

Completely shambolic by the Government/HSE, why haven't they been working on Databases, applications, websites and other systems for Doctors over the past year we've all been locked down?

Why would the HSE have a database of all the teachers in Ireland?

embraer170 · 05-04-2021 01:51PM

Martina1991 wrote: »

It isn't smart at all. The evidence that the antigen tests they are using are effective against identifying infectious cases is very weak.

They use a lateral flow test made by Innova.
Innova is made in the USA but isn't even used there because it didn't reach the FDA’s stated requirements of 80% sensitivity & 99% specificity for home tests available by prescription. These requirements prevent lower performing tests from entering the market.

Mass testing with antigen tests is not a good idea. That is not what they were made for. To do this at such a scale is a waste of money for the number of cases it'll detect.
The UK have spent £1.7 billion on Innova tests to date.

They bought millions of them when they were trialling them in Liverpool and Birmingham and the data was quite poor but they went with them anyway. The only data on the accuracy of Innova for mass testing is from 70 cases - and it only found 28 . Its crazy.

The UK got nearly everything wrong when it comes to testing. But they've turned it around with their vaccinations.

What do you make of the mass use of antigen testing in Germany?

It is even accepted as an alternative to a PCR test when arriving from designated risk regions.

05-04-2021 01:52PM

lausp wrote: »

I'm not a teacher but I'm sick of people saying they shouldn't be getting vaccinated early.

They did exactly that in the USA because they recognised that they are at a higher risk of exposure. Secondary teachers are exposed to about 180 teenagers per day in a classroom (classes of 30 X 6 classes per day). That is potentially 180 families.

On top of this there is no social distancing in school hallways where a thousand students are milling around hallways and people are squeezing past each other.

People go on about shop staff etc but it's a completely different scenario. Those staff may interact with a customer for a minute. They are not in an enclosed room for up to an hour with 30 other people.

Not every teacher is in their 20s and 30s either. I also think crèche staff should be vaccinated too.

People love the teacher bashing here but in this case I agree with them.

and if they are not in their 20s and 30s theyll get it quicker under age priority. its all about risk of severe outcome at this stage in pandemic.

Fitz* · 05-04-2021 01:56PM

GeorgeBailey wrote: »

That can't be possible. Ireland/HSE/vaccine rollout is a SHAMBLES remember.

Was. But it is improving. Some encouraging signs over the last week for sure.

I was pretty pessimistic myself but am moving to being more optimistic now. Good Friday had some great numbers which I was surprised at. Hopefully those numbers can be maintained.

Get the weekend numbers up to match those we see on Wed/Thurs/Fridays and there will be a lot more optimistic people.

lbj666 · 05-04-2021 01:57PM

6 wrote: »

Teachers should be vaccinated asap. So should anyone working in an environment where they are mingling with a lot of others. Plus add in the factor that students will not be vaccinated, which makes it makes even more sense to get them jabs asap.

A 55-65 year old in the community has a 5 times greater chance of severe illness than a young teacher working in such exposed conditions. There are few occupations where the risk of severe illness is greater than the 10-15 year age bracket above them in the general public, it's only healthcare really, certainly not teachers or guards.

They will still have to keep the measures in place in schools anyway, if they were prioritised they would be partially immune ( cause the mRNAs won't be kept for them) for a few weeks before the school term is down.

In truth the only ones that would not missing out is teachers in the age 20-35 age bracket, the rest are likely to get their first dose not soon after the original plan or around the same time.

05-04-2021 01:58PM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Why should a 20 year teacher be
vaccinated before someone in their 50s.

Hundreds of people in their 50 years have died of covid in ireland?

How many 20 year old teachers?

There's no right or wrong answer. If you vaccinate people who work in highly crowded areas quickly, it'll prevent spread and ultimately deaths.

If you vaccinate by age you'll prevent deaths too.

The quickest way is by age which is what we are doing.

GeorgeBailey · 05-04-2021 02:00PM

Fitz* wrote: »

Was. But it is improving. Some encouraging signs over the last week for sure.

I was pretty pessimistic myself but am moving to being more optimistic now. Good Friday had some great numbers which I was surprised at. Hopefully those numbers can be maintained.

Get the weekend numbers up to match those we see on Wed/Thurs/Fridays and there will be a lot more optimistic people.

What was a shambles though? They always said supply was the issue and once they got more supplies then vaccinations would increase. That's what's happened.

05-04-2021 02:01PM

An alternative would be that if you're a teacher, you just get bumped up one group so the older teachers get helped a bit.

lbj666 · 05-04-2021 02:01PM

lausp wrote: »

I'm not a teacher but I'm sick of people saying they shouldn't be getting vaccinated early.

They did exactly that in the USA because they recognised that they are at a higher risk of exposure. Secondary teachers are exposed to about 180 teenagers per day in a classroom (classes of 30 X 6 classes per day). That is potentially 180 families.

On top of this there is no social distancing in school hallways where a thousand students are milling around hallways and people are squeezing past each other.

People go on about shop staff etc but it's a completely different scenario. Those staff may interact with a customer for a minute. They are not in an enclosed room for up to an hour with 30 other people.

Not every teacher is in their 20s and 30s either. I also think crèche staff should be vaccinated too.

People love the teacher bashing here but in this case I agree with them.

They may be of higher risk of exposure but the risk of a young teacher rocking up to hospital or being out for months is not comparable to an older person even in not so exposed work conditions.

And in fair to younger teachers they are no as much worried about themselves but more worried about passing it on the someone older than them so the whole thing is counter intuitive in a way.

05-04-2021 02:03PM

Tenzor07 wrote: »

My understanding is that because the HSE don't have an up to date I.T system, no Databases or applications with patients details that trying to organise the cohorts into specific groups is like trying to piece together a large jigsaw puzzle with no picture on the box... so all they can do now is put it together piece by piece using ages....

Completely shambolic by the Government/HSE, why haven't they been working on Databases, applications, websites and other systems for Doctors over the past year we've all been locked down?

Dunno, maybe it's a legal minefield. Expensive also. Seems like a ridiculous waste of monetary to me tbh.

You think these things haven't been teased out and investigated?

05-04-2021 02:07PM

6 wrote: »

There's no right or wrong answer. If you vaccinate people who work in highly crowded areas quickly, it'll prevent spread and ultimately deaths.

If you vaccinate by age you'll prevent deaths too.

The quickest way is by age which is what we are doing.

cold hard truth is covid in general gets worse with age.

protect the most vulnerable first.

that whole spread thing is only relevant to hcws.

Hundreds of hcws were infected daily throughout pandemic. i have not heard of many cases of teachers infected in classrooms. not one in fact but im.sure it has happened if not in ireland somewhere in the world.

Teachers were out of classrooms more in the last 13 months than in them. 5 months in class. 8 months at home.

Micky 32 · 05-04-2021 02:16PM

https://twitter.com/laoneill111/status/1379058537788289027?s=21

charlie14 · 05-04-2021 02:19PM

adam240610 wrote: »

https://twitter.com/COVID19DataIE/status/1379015462437146624?s=19

There has been criticism that compared to other countries vaccine rollout in Ireland is poor, but it seems to me that many of those comparisons are not being made on a like-for-like basis.

Our percentages for first and second doses are, (correctly imo in regard to herd immunity) based on our entire population. Others we are being compared too, it appears to me at least, are basing their percentages only on the age groups they are presently planning to vaccinate.

In Ireland 20% of our population is under 15 years of age, a cohort we presently have no plans to vaccinate. Even for those under 16 the numbers we are currently planning to vaccinate are going to be relatively low.

If, like some we appear to be compared too, we excluded only those under 15`s from our calculations, then our percentage for first doses received would be more like 17% than 13.2%.

MerlinSouthDub · 05-04-2021 02:25PM

charlie14 wrote: »

There has been criticism that compared to other countries vaccine rollout in Ireland is poor, but it seems to me that many of those comparisons are not being made on a like-for-like basis.

Our percentages for first and second doses are, (correctly imo in regard to herd immunity) based on our entire population. Others we are being compared too, it appears to me at least, are basing their percentages only on the age groups they are presently planning to vaccinate.

In Ireland 20% of our population is under 15 years of age, a cohort we presently have no plans to vaccinate. Even for those under 16 the numbers we are currently planning to vaccinate are going to be relatively low.

If, like some we appear to be compared too, we excluded only those under 15`s from our calculations, then our percentage for first doses received would be more like 17% than 13.2%.

This Twitter account updates every day based on % of those aged 16 and over. By end of week, we'll be at 20% I'd imagine.

https://mobile.twitter.com/IrelandVaccine

irishlad. · 05-04-2021 02:29PM

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1cUZy6AMCwuA2zhtRuKK7cqMVgmhdDsGsZrFWJTkw9DY/edit#gid=502588836

Cohort 3 moving along nicely

05-04-2021 02:33PM

Micky 32 wrote: »

https://twitter.com/laoneill111/status/1379058537788289027?s=21

Another thing tony holihan got wrong with vaçcine rollout.

also

astra should have been given to over 70s.

all would have at least one dose now.

priority list originally vaccinating 18 year olds befoe 54 year olds. changed now thankfully.

We had no control over supply but if we had of done what luke oneill says above and astra for over 70s we wiuld be in much better place with cases and severe illness.

sure its basic commin sense to give as many first doses out as quickly as possible. in econmics its called the law of diminishing returns. the second dose we gave to a 90 year old in a nursing home would have ben better used as a first dose to a 70 year old in community that is totally unvaccinated. UK made this calculation early on and said this strategy would save x more 1000 lives in UK. In hindsight we should have cut and paste everything uk was doing.

charlie14 · 05-04-2021 02:33PM

Micky 32 wrote: »

https://twitter.com/laoneill111/status/1379058537788289027?s=21

Sounds like a good idea now that, at least according to AZ, future deliveries will be what they say, but can you imagine the shlt-storm doing that would have created doing so when AZ were cutting deliveries.

Bubbaclaus · 05-04-2021 02:36PM

irishlad. wrote: »

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1cUZy6AMCwuA2zhtRuKK7cqMVgmhdDsGsZrFWJTkw9DY/edit#gid=502588836

Cohort 3 moving along nicely

1 in 20 of Cohort 3 getting a dose on Good Friday, good going.

eagle eye · 05-04-2021 02:37PM

Woody79 wrote:

astra should have been given to over 70s.

They'd have to wait 12 weeks for the second shot. I'd imagine that's the reason they are getting Pfizer.

trellheim · 05-04-2021 02:40PM

Teachers should be vaccinated asap.

Aldi, LIDL, Tesco, Dunnes workers should be vaccinated ahead of teachers by that argument, so should Garda. Best is to do it by age ,,, which is what they are doing

05-04-2021 02:43PM

eagle eye wrote: »

They'd have to wait 12 weeks for the second shot. I'd imagine that's the reason they are getting Pfizer.

At least partial protection. At the moment thousands of over 70s with no vaccine. The best vaccine is the earliest. Uk strategy was get any vaccine into over 70s as soon as possible. Speed beats perfection. Its a war situation. Gotta love the british in this situation. The did win two world wars. We should have piggy backed all their ideas. We are fumbling in the dark in comparison to them.

COVID-19: Vaccine and testing procedures Megathread Part 3 - Read OP

Comments