Discussion on sexism

EmmetSpiceland · 05-04-2021 1:08pm

knucklehead6 wrote: »

And yet there was mod action taken. The RIP post was deleted. Whether or not users were sanctioned behind the scenes is unknown.

Is that what you’re after? To know what mod actions (if any) were taken against posters who post something you decide is insulting/degrading?

I’m not a mod so I don’t know which is easier, deleting a post entirely or just editing out the “offending” post with a mod note.

The latter would leave a record of the action and might “discourage” those users from trying the same thing again.

The ‘Woke-ism” thread in AH gets a lot of posts deleted for not being in the “spirit” of the thread but it doesn’t seem to deter this type of posting. Which is a shame.

[Deleted User] · 05-04-2021 1:09pm

Anewme- Seems this feedback thread is just whatever you want it to be

Seems the whole site should be

YellowFeather · 05-04-2021 1:17pm

Dr Turk Turkelton wrote: »

So basically have a forum with people who only post what you approve of?

I hate this kind of argument. Whilst I wouldn't feel as strongly as pwuple at all (I like to take insults as insults if they are meant, and not disseminate them into gender in particular), that's not what was said.

anewme · 05-04-2021 1:18pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Anewme- Seems this feedback thread is just whatever you want it to be

Seems the whole site should be

The poster mentioned weak minded people should stay out, I gave an example showing that week minded are already in.

If you have an issue with the term weak minded, take it up with the poster who used that term and wanted it as used as a warning to people not to enter the CA forum, not me for refuting his skewed definition.

*I asked Tokyo yesterday if it was ok to continue the discussion raised in TLL thread here or start a new thread. He said fine, so if you've an issue with that, speak with Tokyo.

pjohnson · 05-04-2021 1:20pm

pwurple wrote: »

Nope. but this seems to be very tricky for you to understand. Keep trying, you might get there some day.

The weak minded big themselves up by bringing others down. Would you agree anewme?

Wibbs · 05-04-2021 1:21pm

EmmetSpiceland wrote: »

People say there’s no sexism, racism, homophobia, anti-trans, bigotry etc on boards but we all know that’s not true.

I've not heard of a single person on this site saying that. That "we all know that’s not true" suggests you agree. It's where people draw lines regarding isms and phobias is the issue.

What I have learned down the years and it applies to this site and the practicalities of moderating is that you will always have a minority of people who are never going to be satisfied with the ethos of a forum and community. I've seen it in all but one forum I modded down the years. The "trick" is to keep that number a minority. I work the adage that if one person says you smell, check of course, but if you don't notice then plough on, if ten people say you smell, buy soap.

anewme · 05-04-2021 1:27pm

Wibbs wrote: »

I'he "trick" is to keep that number a minority. I work the adage that if one person says you smell, check of course, but if you don't notice then plough on, if ten people say you smell, buy soap.

That's why people expected clear feedback in respect of The Ladies Lounge thread and its again being requested here.

A lot of people noticed something was rotten there and spoke out about it. Too many to plough on regardless.

Beasty · 05-04-2021 1:46pm

anewme wrote: »

I'm surprised you are asking this. It would be well recognised.

Of course women can be sexist and misogynistic towards other women.

As men can be biased against other men.

Why do you use the term "sexist" when against women and "biased" when against men?

Is the implication that sexism only works in one direction?

Pawwed Rig · 05-04-2021 1:57pm

Where the line is is an important issue. For example I have had people report any posts critical of feminism as sexist and posts raising concerns with immigration as racist. Questioning either is not sexist/racist by default. It is the manner in the way they are addressed that determines what the response from a mod perspective should be.

For example I would argue that feminism as an ideology no longer has any interest in equality. This might elicit a response from someone who identifies as a feminist but doesn't buy into the more extreme elements of the movement. So one persons sexism is another person's common sense.

anewme · 05-04-2021 1:59pm

Beasty wrote: »

Why do you use the term "sexist" when against women and "biased" when against men?

Is the implication that sexism only works in one direction?

No, the exact same applies to both men and women both ways and gay/lesbian/trans. Not unique to any gender.

The word misandry would not come to me at the time so I used bias, that's all.

I'm surprised you asked that question in the first place.

Omackeral · 05-04-2021 2:04pm

anewme wrote: »

No, the exact same applies to both men and women both ways and gay/lesbian/trans. Not unique to any gender.

The word misandry would not come to me at the time so I used bias, that's all.

I'm surprised you asked that question in the first place.

I think the point is why not just use the word sexist in both instances? Can’t get more equal than that.

99nsr125 · 05-04-2021 2:07pm

pwurple wrote: »

Nope. but this seems to be very tricky for you to understand. Keep trying, you might get there some day.

Knuckle has characterised exactly what you want even if you are unable to see it

Everyone else can see how damaging that would be

Try changing the genders for a moment.

Imagine if any criticism of a man resulted in immediate sanction of a poster, that'd be terrible and akin to destroying all debate and also blatant repressive sexism.

Nobody interested in fair and open debate wants that.

Pawwed Rig · 05-04-2021 2:08pm

anewme wrote: »

I'm surprised you asked that question in the first place.

Well there were other posts on this thread that seemed to assume sexism could only go one way. For example

jam_mac_jam wrote: »

Unless you ban men from the internet there are going to be sexist comments.

This is a plainly sexist comment however only 1 other person has remarked on it. That shows exactly where the double standard is. Yet a post about women that was actioned and deleted has got a huge amount of discussion on this very thread.

The point is that there are no clear lines. There is obvious sexism and then a massive grey area.

anewme · 05-04-2021 2:11pm

Omackeral wrote: »

I think the point is why not just use the word sexist in both instances? Can’t get more equal than that.

Because I was going to use sexist and misogny on one line and sexist misandrist on the other snd could not think of the word. Then I said does that cover everyone or do I have to find new terms.. Thats it in a nutshell.

knucklehead6 · 05-04-2021 2:13pm

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

Well there were other posts on this thread that seemed to assume sexism could only go one way. For example

This is a plainly sexist comment however only 1 other person has remarked on it. That shows exactly where the double standard is. Yet a post about women that was actioned and deleted has got a huge amount of discussion on this very thread.

The point is that there are no clear lines. There is obvious sexism and then a massive grey area.

In fairness I didn’t consider that post by jam as sexist. They were just pointing out that there will always be sexist comments when the genders mix. One way of preventing it is to ban all of one gender from the internet

I’d also consider that the post was made firmly in jest, exaggeration for effect.

Omackeral · 05-04-2021 2:15pm

anewme wrote: »

Because I was going to use sexist and misogny on one line and sexist misandrist on the other snd could not think of the word. Then I said does that cover everyone or do I have to find new terms.. Thats it in a nutshell.

Suppose you could edit it now if you wanted now that you have the terms to hand.

jam_mac_jam · 05-04-2021 2:16pm

knucklehead6 wrote: »

In fairness I didn’t consider that post by jam as sexist. They were just pointing out that there will always be sexist comments when the genders mix. One way of preventing it is to ban all of one gender from the internet

I’d also consider that the post was made firmly in jest, exaggeration for effect.

Thanks. It was made as a flippant comment. And i don't think all men are sexist or should be banned from the internet.

Pawwed Rig · 05-04-2021 2:17pm

knucklehead6 wrote: »

In fairness I didn’t consider that post by jam as sexist. They were just pointing out that there will always be sexist comments when the genders mix. One way of preventing it is to ban all of one gender from the internet

I’d also consider that the post was made firmly in jest, exaggeration for effect.

Agreed but if you saw the amount of CVPL posts that are reported for sexism that people expect the mods to jump on. Especially the YLYL thread. All of them have some level of humour associated with them (some more than others to be fair) and are posted in jest. Again where is the line?
Answer - there is none and it is a matter of interpretation for whatever mod happens to pick up the reported posts. The reporter thinks it is sexist. One mod might agree, another mod might disagree etc. You can't win here

knucklehead6 · 05-04-2021 2:23pm

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

Agreed but if you saw the amount of CVPL posts that are reported for sexism that people expect the mods to jump on. Especially the YLYL thread. All of them have some level of humour associated with them (some more than others to be fair) and are posted in jest. Again where is the line?
Answer - there is none and it is a matter of interpretation for whatever mod happens to pick up the reported posts. The reporter thinks it is sexist. One mod might agree, another mod might disagree etc. You can't win here

And that exactly why people are saying there shouldn’t be hard n fast rules. It reduces the ability of the mods to take things into consideration.

If I post something that is posted in jest, and meant as a flippant comment, and everyone can see that apart from one user who reports it, and there are rules and calibration put in place then there is no leeway for a mod to say OI, KNUCKS! COP ON TA FCK.

anewme · 05-04-2021 2:24pm

Omackeral wrote: »

Suppose you could edit it now if you wanted now that you have the terms to hand.

Can do, if it matters.

jam_mac_jam · 05-04-2021 2:28pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

As a woman I don't much mind sexism. Blatant disgustingness just lets me know who to wrinkle my nose about and handily points out who to contemptuously avoid as being beneath me. The humourous everyday efforts just keeps my reflexes sharp and my muscles strong for punching as good as I get. In real life as on line I am not in favour of being coddled into fragility.

Yep. Me too. I am an adult and the same as real life I am not going to agree with everything I hear. I just roll my eyes and move on.
I hate to say this but people have a right to have sexist views I don't agree with. They are wrong but I am not sure that people should be silenced.
The offensive posts were removed, that's enough.

anewme · 05-04-2021 2:30pm

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

Well there were other posts on this thread that seemed to assume sexism could only go one way. For example

This is a plainly sexist comment however only 1 other person has remarked on it. That shows exactly where the double standard is. Yet a post about women that was actioned and deleted has got a huge amount of discussion on this very thread.

The point is that there are no clear lines. There is obvious sexism and then a massive grey area.

I did think it was sexist when I read it and then someone called out poster who quickly clarified.

There is not always need for a pile on in instances like these.

Very different than the post belittling womens looks and genetalia.

anewme · 05-04-2021 2:31pm

jam_mac_jam wrote: »

Yep. Me too. I am an adult and the same as real life I am not going to agree with everything I hear. I just roll my eyes and move on.
I hate to say this but people have a right to have sexist views I don't agree with. They are wrong but I am not sure that people should be silenced.
The offensive posts were removed, that's enough.

Have you read the thread on ladies fashions?

Omackeral · 05-04-2021 2:39pm

anewme wrote: »

Can do, if it matters.

Doesn’t particularly matter to me but if you want to show fair play and practice what you preach the edit button is there for you to do so.

Pawwed Rig · 05-04-2021 2:40pm

knucklehead6 wrote: »

And that exactly why people are saying there shouldn’t be hard n fast rules. It reduces the ability of the mods to take things into consideration.

If I post something that is posted in jest, and meant as a flippant comment, and everyone can see that apart from one user who reports it, and there are rules and calibration put in place then there is no leeway for a mod to say OI, KNUCKS! COP ON TA FCK.

Agreed but what happens when there are so many 'jokes' that it becomes an unpleasant place to visit for that demographic?

knucklehead6 · 05-04-2021 2:48pm

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

Agreed but what happens when there are so many 'jokes' that it becomes an unpleasant place to visit for that demographic?

If it a situation where certain types of “jokes” make a forum uncomfortable for a demographic, is it not usually the case that those “jokes” are posted by the same user/users? Then a quiet word in their ear should suffice. If that doesn’t work, step it up a bit.

You’ve been a mod here for long enough that you don’t need me to tell you how to handle it.

It’s a LONG time since I hung up my mod hat, but that approach usually worked for me.

Pawwed Rig · 05-04-2021 3:01pm

knucklehead6 wrote: »

If it a situation where certain types of “jokes” make a forum uncomfortable for a demographic, is it not usually the case that those “jokes” are posted by the same user/users? Then a quiet word in their ear should suffice. If that doesn’t work, step it up a bit.

Not really tbh. There would be alot of posts with the butt of the jokes being women. They would be posted by a broad range of users not necessarily individual or a small group of posters.
We wouldn't allow the jokes where the butt of the joke was a black person for example. But then you're into the various power relationships of the relevant factions etc etc. These isms change on a constant basis overtime too so something that was quite acceptable 5 years ago might not be acceptable now. Equally something that we allow now might be worth an instant ban in 5 years time.

Point is that it is impossible to please everyone. Where you cannot please everyone then who do you try to please. Also who makes that decision?

anewme · 05-04-2021 3:05pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

As a woman I don't much mind sexism. In real life as on line I am not in favour of being coddled into fragility.

Do you mind racism? If yes, then question answered but if not, why but?

This coddled into fragility argument is nonsense.

You don’t mind sexism, but people who do must be fragile?

Does that not in fact make you more fragile?

knucklehead6 · 05-04-2021 3:15pm

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

Not really tbh. There would be alot of posts with the butt of the jokes being women. They would be posted by a broad range of users not necessarily individual or a small group of posters.
We wouldn't allow the jokes where the butt of the joke was a black person for example. But then you're into the various power relationships of the relevant factions etc etc. These isms change on a constant basis overtime too so something that was quite acceptable 5 years ago might not be acceptable now. Equally something that we allow now might be worth an instant ban in 5 years time.

Point is that it is impossible to please everyone. Where you cannot please everyone then who do you try to please. Also who makes that decision?

Yep, I get that. Even the description of “Kind Hearts and Coronets” on the Sky Movies menu (where it’s regarded as an Essential Classic) states “THIS FILM HAS OUTDATED ATTITUDES, LANGUAGE AND CULTURAL DEPICTIONS WHICH MAY CAUSE OFFENCE TODAY”

What’s tolerable today may not be tolerable tomorrow.
When I was growing up damn near every black dog was called Blackie. They wouldn’t be tolerated today.

I get that society causes changes in what’s acceptable and what’s not, and broadly those changes are for the better.

As for who and when do you please, well I suppose that’s why there’s a team of mods per forum. The team agrees a consensus, and that’d be how contentious issues would be handled.

The thread that was the genesis of this thread had a few nasty comments that were dealt with.
I don’t know if there were sexist comments because I saw the train wreck it was, and got out of there, knowing it was gonna get worse.

[Deleted User] · 05-04-2021 3:31pm

<snip>

Discussion on sexism

Comments