Discussion on sexism

pwurple

Here is another fine example of a thread about women which descends into the usual sexual degradation of boards.
https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2058174745

I report umpteen posts, some are deleted , some not, none carded, no comment or censure on the thread. My own posts remain, leaving me looking like a lunatic complaining about fresh air.

Every second post continues to be “is she hot”. “Double d’s”, general commentary on women’s bodies.


I have raised this multiple times, on multiple forums. I have been told it is under discussion at the admin level.

What is the justification for tolerance of this standard of posting towards women?

What is the policy?

Tokyo

Just looking at the timestamps for a minute, that thread was started yesterday at 19:22, and the feedback thread was started at 23:49. On Easter weekend. I'm not trying to dismiss your overarching concern with what may or my not be contained within that thread (I haven't gotten to read the thread myself yet other than clicking on it just now and the first page seems to be more of a rant against social welfare than a commentary on the women in question), but I think a realistic timeframe is not an unreasonable expectation.

4 hour and 27 minute window before feedback, on a Saturday evening, on a holiday weekend, is not reasonable. The conversations move more or less in real time, it's unrealistic to expect that everything will be actioned immediately. I see that the other mods have already gotten to some of the reported posts - I'll be taking a look myself too shortly.

anewme

Point noted on the timestamps Tokyo.

The bigger issue how this thread is allowed to stay open. Constant references to tits, diddies, Micky money, social welfare, bashing and many other derogatory comments about their looks.

Some of the posts are downright disgusting.

I doubt it anyone agrees with the actions of the women in question. But the thread is used to push hatred.

I would also like to have an update on the admin review following the concerning number of women who came forward on the unfettered sexism thread in the Ladies Lounge.

Also maybe more as a question in general on moderation, some posters get cards, while other posts are just deleted as if they were never there, do the posters get cards when their posts are removed. It appears on the thread pwurple referenced, that the people highlighting the poor behaviour get carded, while the bad posts get deleted with no record. In the interests of transparency is there a record of posts deleted?

I'm also asking for the policy as per Pwurples request.

Leg End Reject

For balance it should be noted that many of the posters on that thread are women, and do not share these concerns.

So, some women see misogyny and sexism, while others see criticism of the actions of the 2 women involved, but not that the criticism is linked to their gender.

Any discussion forum requires differing opinions to remain viable, otherwise it will become a safe space where dissent isn't allowed. An oft-used response by feminists is that women "Do not have a hivemind", yet it seems differing opinions are unwelcome.

anewme

Theres different opinions and then there is abuse. This is one post I reported, which was subsequently deleted.

F***ing gravel donkeys need new faces and bodies never mind tits.the state of them.fannies like a punched lasagne prob

Above post thanked by other posters who share that view.


Loads of posts about tits, their looks, they should be minding their kids etc.

These posts are not different opinions, they are misogynistic and sexist. Removing them is allowing it to look like people are imagining things.

Many of the women who posted in The Ladies Lounge thread are not posting in the Dubai thread. I wonder is it for the reasons outlined in TLL thread and Ladies fashions thread?

Leg End Reject

But just as there are differing opinions they are different reactions upon reading posts.

To me they're juvenile comments rather than misogynistic and sexist comments.

anewme

Leg End Reject wrote: »

But just are there are differing opinions they are different reactions upon reading posts.

To me they're juvenile comments rather than misogynistic and sexist comments.

No, they are 100 percent misogynistic and sexist.

Excusing them as juvenile is as good as condoning them.

Leg End Reject

anewme wrote: »

No, they are 100 percent misogynistic and sexist.

Excusing them as juvenile is as good as condoning them.

We just have differing opinions, it doesn't mean that one of us right and the other is wrong. Discussions wouldn't happen if we all agreed.

anewme

Leg End Reject wrote: »

We just have differing opinions, it doesn't mean that one of us right and the other is wrong. Discussions wouldn't happen if we all agreed.

We have different opinions agree, but racism/ sexism/ homophobia have clear definitions and the example I posted clearly is sexist.

Dublin Lad2021

To be fair to OP this happens a lot, the posts about the Girl that ran from the cops were similar and disgusting

Bubbaclaus

Dublin Lad2021 wrote: »

To be fair to OP this happens a lot, the posts about the Girl that ran from the cops were similar and disgusting

To be fair, if that had been a male that had set up an OnlyFans like a day after a garda chase, and proceeded to sell videos of themselves having sex for a tenner, plenty of comments would be made about it too.

Dr Turk Turkelton

Dublin Lad2021 wrote: »

To be fair to OP this happens a lot, the posts about the Girl that ran from the cops were similar and disgusting

Is that the same girl that set up an only fans page and when it was leaked across all the porn sites on the Internet the man who had no clue as to what she was doing with their intimate videos was unwittingly unmasked?
Hopefully the new revenge porn laws that were brought in are used to their fullest extent against her.
As a matter of interest what is your opinion of her?

sydthebeat

I think the boards wide policy of moderators deleting posts without notification or indication is a terrible action for this whole forum.

Posters who have had posts removed are not notified that their posts are removed (I've experienced this myself).
Therefore I don't see the point, as the posters behaviour wont change...

Also, posts which are replies to "fresh air" look off Topic and ridiculous.

Who came up with this as an acceptable moderation action???

It's obviously not a full thought through policy

Tokyo

Admin: Nil Satis Nisi Optimum! - your account does not meet the criteria for feedback - you must have 100 posts on the site and have been a registered member for at least 3 months. Please don't post here until those criteria have been met.

pwurple

That thread is not the only example, you can also note the thread I started in LL on the same topic, and a few concerns raised with moderators on the same topic on each of their fora.

In each case I have been told there is a discussion ongoing in the background.

I’m simply asking for the results of that discussion. What is the policy now?

banie01

Has that whole thread just been nuked?

Leg End Reject

banie01 wrote: »

Has that whole thread just been nuked?

Yep, just checked my posts and they're gone. It seems us women are sacred cows.

ETA: It's been clarified that the case is before the courts, so I got my udders crossed.

Tokyo

The thread has been deleted as it's still before the courts - the parties involved were remanded to appear at the District Court at the Criminal Courts of Justice on Friday 9 April.

That being said, I spent the last couple of hours going through the thread and the reported posts that resulted from it to see where we could perhaps do better.

In all, there were 61 reported posts generated by that thread. Out of that 61, 30 of those posts had a mod action applied to them to some degree. The majority of the reported posts had been dealt with by 6am and I actioned another 7 that were presumably generated since then. Two posters received straight up bans - 1 permabanned from the forum for the 'gravel donkeys' comment and the other banned from the site for being a straight up troll. Of the remaining 24 reported posts that weren't actioned, I 100% concur that they were spurious reports, the vast majority from a poster who themselves received a mod action in the thread and was presumably being petulant to the point where I'm considering further action for abuse of the reported post function.

To summarise:

• 61 reported posts
• 37 actioned
• 2 users banned.
• 21 remaining unactioned RPs predominantly from one pissed off poster.
• 91% of which was taken care of before 6am.

I'm not denying that sexism exists on boards (or indeed society as a whole) and we can all do better to make boards a more welcoming place all round. There's a much bigger conversation to be had on that, but starting a thread on the topic predicated on the premise that mods aren't doing anything to deal with this is unfair to say the least on the mods who are trying to do precisely that.

Based on the OP I have to admit I was expecting to see that mods had been busy IRL due to easter weekend - the numbers above say otherwise. So the complaint then becomes one of not being happy with *how* the offending posts are being dealt with and seemingly you can't keep everybody happy.

What I can say from an admin perspective is that I went through every one of the reported posts in that thread to date and I have no issue with the mods decisions to delete certain posts, card others, combination of delete and card yet others. Would I have made exactly the same choices? Across 61 reported posts, absolutely not, and that is to be entirely expected. The broader issue of sexism notwithstanding, I'm kinda baffled as to what more people are expecting from a volunteer team of moderators in the middle of the night?

pwurple wrote: »

I report umpteen posts, some are deleted , some not, none carded, no comment or censure on the thread. My own posts remain, leaving me looking like a lunatic complaining about fresh air.

Respectfully, your 'own posts that remain' were having a crack at moderation of the thread. Which is not allowed sitewide. Perhaps don't do that in future.

banie01

@Tokyo,
Appreciate the effort to provide feedback re: the thread deletion and the mod actions.

The effort the mod team put in on that thread is to be commended particularly over a holiday weekend.

The discussion of live cases is a long standing rule and it's a fair way to avoid the Dubai too until judgement is passed.

Regarding the sexism, it's not a fight I have or want a dog in.
But, be prepared to be accused of just kicking the can down the road.

anewme

@Tokyo, thanks as well for the feedback on this thread.

I’d also like an update on the actions to promote inclusivity as a result of TLL thread and the concerns raised there.

Can it be done here or is another thread needed?

As a woman I didn’t take offence at the posts.

Tokyo

anewme wrote: »

@Tokyo, thanks as well for the feedback on this thread.

I’d also like an update on the actions to promote inclusivity as a result of TLL thread and the concerns raised there.

Can it be done here or is another thread needed?

No problem. it can be done here.

With respect to an update on the actions to promote inclusivity - if you are asking if there is a mission statement that I can simply cut and paste from and say "this is what we're doing now" - there isn't.

That being said, Boards should never be a place where people have free rein to torment others. We wish to foster an environment where everyone is welcome to engage, discuss, argue and share. It's obvious that we can - and should - do more. Conversations such as the one you describe in TLL do get carried across to the mods forum, and the admins forum. We (posters/mods/admin) may not get agree all of the time on every aspect of how the site is run, however the most important aspect of Boards is that we are a community. The conversations that take place on sexism, misogyny, racism, transphobia and so on may not result in an instant list of bulletpoint rules, but it does mean that we can no longer say we didn’t know how many of our community, directly or indirectly, have been affected by these issue. So the moderators decide to take a stricter line as to what is unacceptable.

I have seen evidence to support this as of late, particularly in CA given the nature of the threads it attracts. We're nowhere near 'there' yet, and the conversation is an ongoing one, as it should be. That may not be the exact answer you came to this thread looking for, and I am happy to post on it further tomorrow (it's just gone 11pm here and I've spent the last few hours addressing this thread alone). I'm certainly open to further discussion though.

anewme

Strawberry Milkshake wrote: »

As a woman I didn’t take offence at the posts.

You think it's ok to desk about women like this?

F***ing gravel donkeys need new faces and bodies never mind tits.the state of them.fannies like a punched lasagne prob

anewme

anewme wrote: »

You think it's ok to desk about women like this?

F***ing gravel donkeys need new faces and bodies never mind tits.the state of them.fannies like a punched lasagne prob

I see that comment as talking about 2 people who are scamming a system that’s there to help those who have nothing. I don’t see it as a comment against all women.

anewme

Tokyo wrote: »

No problem. it can be done here.

With respect to an update on the actions to promote inclusivity - if you are asking if there is a mission statement that I can simply cut and paste from and say "this is what we're doing now" - there isn't.

That being said, Boards should never be a place where people have free rein to torment others. We wish to foster an environment where everyone is welcome to engage, discuss, argue and share. It's obvious that we can - and should - do more. Conversations such as the one you describe in TLL do get carried across to the mods forum, and the admins forum. We (posters/mods/admin) may not get agree all of the time on every aspect of how the site is run, however the most important aspect of Boards is that we are a community. The conversations that take place on sexism, misogyny, racism, transphobia and so on may not result in an instant list of bulletpoint rules, but it does mean that we can no longer say we didn’t know how many of our community, directly or indirectly, have been affected by these issue. So the moderators decide to take a stricter line as to what is unacceptable.

I have seen evidence to support this as of late, particularly in CA given the nature of the threads it attracts. We're nowhere near 'there' yet, and the conversation is an ongoing one, as it should be. That may not be the exact answer you came to this thread looking for, and I am happy to post on it further tomorrow (it's just gone 11pm here and I've spent the last few hours addressing this thread alone). I'm certainly open to further discussion though.

No, I do appreciate your feedback.

To be honest, I havent seen the same evidence as you've referenced - the woke thread for example is still used to bash minorities, but that is not to say it's not happening. Again, comments could be removed before people even know they are there, so that could be part of it.

When you've posters as seen here who view the gravel donkey type comments as juvenile or just a different opinion and ok to post without actually acknowledging they are toxic, sexist, offensive, then it is clear that there is still quite the way to go.

Princess Calla

Just putting a theory out there.

It is entirely possible that you have a group of male friends in the 18-25 yr old bracket give or take, who all know each other's users names....they could all be sitting in the same room.

When these topics come up they have a competition within the group as to who can come up with the best insults cause the most drama in the thread.

The more they see people getting wound up the bolder they become.

They thank each other's post, quote each other's posts giving the perception that this is "society" speaking when really it's probably a group of wind up merchants having a few cans getting a kick out of the indignation of posters.

There's a mantra of "don't feed the trolls" for a reason.

Personally I think if you don't like what someone is saying don't quote it, just report it and move on... once wind up merchants see they aren't getting a reaction they will get bored , especially when their "witty one liners " get deleted without a fuss.

anewme

Strawberry Milkshake wrote: »

I see that comment as talking about 2 people who are scamming a system that’s there to help those who have nothing. I don’t see it as a comment against all women.

No one agrees with anyone scamming a system, but speaking about people using crass sexually derogatory terms are not in the spirit of discussions and add nothing to the forum.

Leg End Reject

It's also entirely possible that there are individuals who don't get offended at criticism of a particular group, or at negative descriptions.

anewme

Leg End Reject wrote: »

It's also entirely possible that there are individuals who don't get offended at criticism of a particular group, or at negative descriptions.

But the issue raised here by Pwurple and summed up in the Thread in The Ladies Lounge is that there are many individuals who have been upset, to the point they dont post or visit certain areas or have left the forum. One was a long term moderator. There were too many not to see that there is action needed and the mods there have acknowledged that too.

The problem then is that if people are afraid to post, or have left, the people who want free rein to abuse others are left to it unchallenged.

Same people who are ok with lasagne fannies were ok with fat pigs in yoga pants who should not be out in public. I dont mind saying I'm not ok with that and it should not be said to anyone.

If boards is a Community forum, its pretty obvious these views are a race to the bottom, and do not promote inclusivity in any way.

99nsr125

pwurple wrote: »

Here is another fine example of a thread about women which descends into the usual sexual degradation of boards.
https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2058174745

I report umpteen posts, some are deleted , some not, none carded, no comment or censure on the thread. My own posts remain, leaving me looking like a lunatic complaining about fresh air.

Every second post continues to be “is she hot”. “Double d’s”, general commentary on women’s bodies.


I have raised this multiple times, on multiple forums. I have been told it is under discussion at the admin level.

What is the justification for tolerance of this standard of posting towards women?

What is the policy?

Probably because it is a story about tits, that's the entire premise of it

99nsr125

anewme wrote: »

You think it's ok to desk about women like this?

F***ing gravel donkeys need new faces and bodies never mind tits.the state of them.fannies like a punched lasagne prob

Is that not directed at two people in particular not an entire group.

It could be more constructive but does potray the ire of how people feel by what the two did.

Criticism is not sexism but the wanting to be treated differently or preferentially because of your sex is.

anewme

99nsr125 wrote: »

Is that not directed at two people in particular not an entire group.

It could be more constructive but does potray the ire of how people feel by what the two did.

Criticism is not sexism but the wanting to be treated differently or preferentially because of your sex is.

Alleging women are promiscuous is an insult usually aimed to degenerate and abuse women.

You seem to be getting confused between criticism and abuse.

anewme

Princess Calla wrote: »

Just putting a theory out there.

It is entirely possible that you have a group of male friends in the 18-25 yr old bracket give or take, who all know each other's users names....they could all be sitting in the same room.

When these topics come up they have a competition within the group as to who can come up with the best insults cause the most drama in the thread.

The more they see people getting wound up the bolder they become.

They thank each other's post, quote each other's posts giving the perception that this is "society" speaking when really it's probably a group of wind up merchants having a few cans getting a kick out of the indignation of posters.

There's a mantra of "don't feed the trolls" for a reason.

Personally I think if you don't like what someone is saying don't quote it, just report it and move on... once wind up merchants see they aren't getting a reaction they will get bored , especially when their "witty one liners " get deleted without a fuss.

I'd say there is few wind up merchants trolling to be funny alright.

The ones referenced in TLL though are not kids, they've been around years.

And the content is far more concerning. The far right types. They dont believe people know who they are, but there are a fair few posters who do. One poster referred to it as the dog whistle (which I had to look up) while my term would be hiding in plain sight.

99nsr125

anewme wrote: »

No one agrees with anyone scamming a system, but speaking about people using crass sexually derogatory terms are not in the spirit of discussions and add nothing to the forum.

But they had surgery to enhance their sexuality, how do you debate that and not talk about it. It's ridiculous

If genders were switched and it was todger enhancement everyone would be making comments about that too.

They are bodyparts that define the sexes, people are angry and thus ridicule for something foolishly done. The tribe as a whole (society) will always ridicule foolish actions, we are sanctioning poor behaviour to protect us all from future poor behaviour.

Leg End Reject

I've said it before in relation to previous threads, but if people are "afraid" to post, and leave as a result, it's more indicative of a lack of self-confidence than an issue with boards.

This is an anonymous forum and many will disagree with us, that's true in real life too. Calling for a safe place for those who are afraid to post is looking for the exclusion of others who prefer a more robust debate.

Ironically, it was pwurple who brought slut shaming into the thread. Sure, they were comments relating to boobs, I made one myself, but it was relevant to the reason these 2 went to Dubai. Their own actions drew all the attention to themselves and it's no surprise a lot of the reactions are negative.

Sonic the Shaghog

Tbf if you look at the posting history of certain posters here, practically any criticism of a woman for any reason is down to misogyny and sexism in their minds.

They come across as perpetual victims IMO

99nsr125

anewme wrote: »

Alleging women are promiscuous is an insult usually aimed to degenerate and abuse women.

You seem to be getting confused between criticism and abuse.

Accusing someone of promiscuity is not an insult reserved for women, ask any gay man.

I was addressing the fact to be critical of someone who happens to be one sex or another is not sexism just because you don't like the criticism

Abuse is when a person harns or injures another, specifically in a controlling manner directly or intentionally, repeatedly and without justification. Single derogatory comments are just that but repeated and persistent would be different.

anewme

Leg End Reject wrote: »

I've said it before in relation to previous threads, but if people are "afraid" to post, and leave as a result, it's more indicative of a lack of self-confidence than an issue with boards.

This is an anonymous forum and many will disagree with us, that's true in real life too. Calling for a safe place for those who are afraid to post is looking for the exclusion of others who prefer a more robust debate.

Ironically, it was pwurple who brought slut shaming into the thread. Sure, they were comments relating to boobs, I made one myself, but it was relevant to the reason these 2 went to Dubai. Their own actions drew all the attention to themselves and it's no surprise a lot of the reactions are negative.

Not necessarily, I'd see it more as they dont want the hassle and just stay away.

While a certain amount of that as you say down to the individual, Boards has a responsibility here not to allow posters be bullied off as has happened, leaving an Echo Chamber.

I'd have no time for those women due to their actions and am not surprised people are annoyed at all.

It can be expressed though without derogatory comments.

Leg End Reject

Why has boards a responsibility? I thought it was privately owned.

anewme

99nsr125 wrote: »

Accusing someone of promiscuity is not an insult reserved for women, ask any gay man.

Should not be used against anyone.

anewme

Leg End Reject wrote: »

Why has boards a responsibility? I thought it was privately owned.

Its selling itself as a Community Forum and has a duty to uphold standards of a Community Forum.

knucklehead6

anewme wrote: »

You think it's ok to desk about women like this?

F***ing gravel donkeys need new faces and bodies never mind tits.the state of them.fannies like a punched lasagne prob

You’ve already been told that the post was dealt with. To be honest when I saw it I thought “woah, there’s a ban incoming for that comment, way over the top”

No one is saying that it’s appropriate to speak about anyone like that, the poster has been dealt with and most people who read the thread (I got to page 3 before I decided to leave it as it was turning into a bashing thread) knew not to engage with that poster.

Someone else said it here, there was possibly a cohort of posters who were on the wind up. Seeing how far they could go and how they could cause the most outrage. All the while giggling into their Easter eggs.

Leg End Reject

anewme wrote: »

Its selling itself as a Community Forum and has a duty to uphold standards of a Community Forum.

A duty to whom? What is the definition of a community forum?

Princess Calla

Leg End Reject wrote: »

I've said it before in relation to previous threads, but if people are "afraid" to post, and leave as a result, it's more indicative of a lack of self-confidence than an issue with boards.

This is an anonymous forum and many will disagree with us, that's true in real life too. Calling for a safe place for those who are afraid to post is looking for the exclusion of others who prefer a more robust debate.

I was called a weirdo and my actions were compared to a rapist in another thread. That was a personal attack on me .

I didn't report the posts (they have been deleted though) and it didn't silence me....I'm not super self confident by any stretch but if you feel strongly on a topic you need to stand firm, when you're causing someone to try to win a point by name calling you know your hitting a nerve or they've a vested interest in the topic.

So I don't buy in to the "too afraid" to post lark either. If you have an opinion you feel strongly about fight it out* but be prepared for someone to feel equally strongly against you. I'm not saying they are right by any stretch but a challenge on anything will result in a kick back and an anonymous forum gives a platform to people to express views they may not be bold enough to say in company.

Like everything there will be good and bad.

*Though if you find certain posts offensive I do think ignore and report is the best strategy.

Leg End Reject

Princess Calla wrote: »

I was called a weirdo and my actions were compared to a rapist in another thread. That was a personal attack on me .

I didn't report the posts (they have been deleted though) and it didn't silence me....I'm not super self confident by any stretch but if you feel strongly on a topic you need to stand firm, when you're causing someone to try to win a point by name calling you know your hitting a nerve or they've a vested interest in the topic.

So I don't buy in to the "too afraid" to post lark either. If you have an opinion you feel strongly about fight it out* but be prepared for someone to feel equally strongly against you. I'm not saying they are right by any stretch but a challenge on anything will result in a kick back and an anonymous forum gives a platform to people to express views they may not be bold enough to say in company.

Like everything there will be good and bad.

*Though if you find certain posts offensive I do think ignore and report is the best strategy.

I've had one of the main protagonists here take an excerpt from one of my posts and use it to slut shame me, not once, but they doubled-down and repeated it. Then went on to twist another post to imply it meant something it didn't.

So some can give it but take it.

CtevenSrowder

It's always the same suspects complaining of rampant sexism, homophobia, transphobia, xenophobia, islamophobia, etc. etc. Always the same people.

I'd hazard a guess that it is a tiny handful of people that report posts continuously, with a simple aim of getting discussion shut down.

CtevenSrowder

Leg End Reject wrote: »

I've had one of the main protagonists here take an excerpt from one of my posts and use it to slut shame me, not once, but they doubled-down and repeated it. Then went on to twist another post to imply it meant something it didn't.

So some can give it but take it.

Yes, some people have a do as I say not as I do tendency. The modding on CA is broadly very good. There is a small cohort seemingly putting huge pressure on mods to take action on what is perceived as rampant sexism. These people simply want an echo chamber. Most of us want robust debate/discussion.

AndrewJRenko

CtevenSrowder wrote: »

. Most of us want robust debate/discussion.

Maybe we could have the robust debate / discussion without the rampant sexism, homophobia, transphobia, xenophobia, islamophobia, etc?

CtevenSrowder

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Maybe we could have the robust debate / discussion without the rampant sexism, homophobia, transphobia, xenophobia, islamophobia, etc?

Those things aren't rampant. They are routinely thrown out lazily by those who can't formulate an argument. And as I said, it is a tiny cohort who are the ones who seem to see it being prevalent. It was once suggested that 60% of boards users are far right.. It is that type of hyperbole I am talking about.

anewme

CtevenSrowder wrote: »

It's always the same suspects complaining of rampant sexism, homophobia, transphobia, xenophobia, islamophobia, etc. etc. Always the same people.

I'd hazard a guess that it is a tiny handful of people that report posts continuously, with a simple aim of getting discussion shut down.

Funny that, it's always the same suspects dishing out rampant sexism, homophobia, transphobia, xenophobia, islamophobia, etc. etc. Always the same people.

Gatling

CtevenSrowder wrote: »

I'd hazard a guess that it is a tiny handful of people that report posts continuously, with a simple aim of getting discussion shut down.

Several posters admitted they report posters who they believe may be breaching boundaries it's very much obvious and self serving they want people that stand up to be silenced so they can keep their names of top of threads they don't want others posting in