Discussion on sexism

pwurple · 05-04-2021 10:39am

Tokyo wrote: »

Respectfully, neither of you are in any position to make that statement as fact - that posts are simply deleted with a 'move along, nothing to see here', laissez-faire attitude, and pwurple, the picture you seem intent on painting of a poster singlehandedly taking a stand, and the reluctant mod groaning and dragging their heels because they have been browbeaten to get to the computer to take action is at best disingenuous and does nothing to further discussion on the actual issue here. So I'd appreciate it if you'd stop it.

Stop giving my perspective? Why is it not valid?

I am giving you a view of how it comes across, because what other insight do I have but my own? Is there a secret action behind the scenes I don’t see? Maybe there is, tell me more!

But what surprises me here more than anything else is that this thread is less about sexist comments on boards, and becoming far more about how posts are moderated, particularly if they aren't moderated within certain posters extremely narrow vision of how to do so.

only in response to the bleating about what could possibly be done differently In fairness.

You're speaking in terms of black and white and not looking at the third option - taking the kid aside and warning them not to do it again, and/or grounding them. What some people seem to be looking for is a public pillory though and are thoroughly unhappy with anything else.

Not so at all. I described fairly succinctly an example of how I have seen it done successfully elsewhere. No public pillorying needed. But a gentle reminder (even one single comment) can aid community standards. The difficulty remains there is no actual standard on sexism.

To argue that sexism doesn't exist on Boards is absurd - it exists here in the same way that it exists in all strata of society. But it's almost become a secondary issue in this thread compared to how the moderators choose to moderate, which is a tack I wasn't expecting.

It also isn’t where I wanted to go, so I will ask again...

Is there an intent to guide the moderator team on what sexism is, and how to deal with it?

anewme · 05-04-2021 10:41am

Beasty wrote: »

Just to add, I'm pretty sure some of the posters in question were female. Can women be sexist against other women?

I'm surprised you are asking this. It would be well recognised.

Of course women can be sexist and misogynistic towards other women and all genders

As men can be sexist and misandristic against other men and all genders.

Tokyo · 05-04-2021 10:45am

anewme wrote: »

I've not said posts are deleted with a laissez faire attitude, what I've said is when they are deleted, it leaves it looking as if people are giving out about nothing and no record.

Then they shouldn't be doing that. Age old rule of the internet is to not feed the trolls, and let the moderators deal with it. In many instances, a poster seems to want to attack the post AND report it for mod action at the same time, and those two don't work well together.

anewme wrote: »

There are people here arguing that sexism/ misogyny/ hatred does not exist in boards.

I don't believe anybody has said that to be fair. There is certainly opposing points of view as to what constitutes sexism, both in general and within the thread in question.

anewme wrote: »

It's not an attack on Mods and should not be seen as such. Its feedback.

Sure, but my point remains that the thread was opened under the guise of combating sexism but the subject matter has been predominantly about peoples displeasure at how the thread was moderated, which detracts from the supposed topic.

Genuine question then. How do you think the thread should have been modded?

knucklehead6 · 05-04-2021 10:45am

pwurple wrote: »

Stop giving my perspective? Why is it not valid?

I am giving you a view of how it comes across, because what other insight do I have but my own? Is there a secret action behind the scenes I don’t see? Maybe there is, tell me more!

only in response to the bleating about what could possibly be done differently In fairness.

Not so at all. I described fairly succinctly an example of how I have seen it done successfully elsewhere. No public pillorying needed. But a gentle reminder (even one single comment) can aid community standards. The difficulty remains there is no actual standard on sexism.

It also isn’t where I wanted to go, so I will ask again...

Is there an intent to guide the moderator team on what sexism is, and how to deal with it?

As in “I want a set of cast iron rules that mods and admins have to follow and I have to approve of them too and not allow for any personal discretion and any comments that put ANY women in a bad light are inherently sexist if made by a male”

CtevenSrowder · 05-04-2021 10:46am

pwurple wrote: »

Not so at all. I described fairly succinctly an example of how I have seen it done successfully elsewhere. No public pillorying needed. But a gentle reminder (even one single comment) can aid community standards. The difficulty remains there is no actual standard on sexism.

There is a standard. Don't be a dick. It's worked fine up until now and has been boards policy from near the get go.

pwurple wrote: »

It also isn’t where I wanted to go, so I will ask again...

Is there an intent to guide the moderator team on what sexism is, and how to deal with it?

Why should there be. Again, most seem happy with the status quo. Who is going to do this guiding?

pwurple · 05-04-2021 10:49am

knucklehead6 wrote: »

As in “I want a set of cast iron rules that mods and admins have to follow and I have to approve of them too and not allow for any personal discretion and any comments that put ANY women in a bad light are inherently sexist if made by a male”

Nope. but this seems to be very tricky for you to understand. Keep trying, you might get there some day.

knucklehead6 · 05-04-2021 10:54am

pwurple wrote: »

Nope. but this seems to be very tricky for you to understand. Keep trying, you might get there some day.

No, I think I’m there. I think that’s EXACTLY what you’re after but now that two of the site admins have pretty much told you “nope, no chance, don’t be a dick covers it” you’re resorting to smart arse comments about keeping trying and maybe you’ll get there some day.

Deub · 05-04-2021 11:01am

pwurple wrote: »

Nope. but this seems to be very tricky for you to understand. Keep trying, you might get there some day.

In your OP you complain about the standard of posting and yet, you post this.
Or maybe does it apply only if it is toward women?

knucklehead6 · 05-04-2021 11:02am

Deub wrote: »

In your OP you complain about the standard of posting and yet, you post this.
Or maybe does it apply only if it is toward women?

Careful now. You’ll be accused of piling on and bullying next.

Signore Fancy Pants · 05-04-2021 11:04am

This is just Mods/Admins being harassed at this stage. Despite appropriate actions already being taken.

All with the intent of being forced to implement some policy that few posters can use as beating stick for their own agenda and hold Mods hostage.

Let's be honest, you could find some fault in a vast majority of posts on this site for various reasons if you wanted to. You can't have a policy for everything.

Most importantly, your own interpretation of a post...even when reaching...shouldn't trump another persons unless it is categorically obvious what is is to everyone.

anewme · 05-04-2021 11:14am

CtevenSrowder wrote: »

Why should there be. Again, most seem happy with the status quo. Who is going to do this guiding?

This was raised previously in the thread in the Ladies Lounge.

It is one for admin/ senior managers of Boards.

anewme · 05-04-2021 11:16am

Tokyo wrote: »

Then they shouldn't be doing that. Age old rule of the internet is to not feed the trolls, and let the moderators deal with it. In many instances, a poster seems to want to attack the post AND report it for mod action at the same time, and those two don't work well together.

I don't believe anybody has said that to be fair. There is certainly opposing points of view as to what constitutes sexism, both in general and within the thread in question.

Sure, but my point remains that the thread was opened under the guise of combating sexism but the subject matter has been predominantly about peoples displeasure at how the thread was moderated, which detracts from the supposed topic.

Genuine question then. How do you think the thread should have been modded?

Sorry Tokyo, I had a comprehensive response typed, but I lost it. Will revisit again,

knucklehead6 · 05-04-2021 11:18am

anewme wrote: »

This was raised previously in the thread in the Ladies Lounge.

It is one for admin/ senior managers of Boards.

So, same as I posted earlier, and SFP as well. You want a stick to beat people with and also do some rules lawyering.

TheValeyard · 05-04-2021 11:18am

Someone posted something stupid. Moderator took appropriate action. Post removed. User dealt with.

Moderators are volunteers. I've met with a fair few of the Moderators here for drinks in the old pre Covid world. They are ordinary people with lives, families, jobs, unhealthy obsessions with finding wolves amongst villagers, but they cannot and should not be about policing what someone could post.

This is getting ridiculous. You cannot police what people could post. If someone posts something silly, then it will get acted upon. The users of boards do not need an education on sexiest language.

anewme · 05-04-2021 11:28am

TheValeyard wrote: »

Someone posted something stupid. Moderator took appropriate action. Post removed. User dealt with.

Moderators are volunteers. I've met with a fair few of the Moderators here for drinks in the old pre Covid world. They are ordinary people with lives, families, jobs, unhealthy obsessions with finding wolves amongst villagers, but they cannot and should not be about policing what someone could post.

This is getting ridiculous. You cannot police what people could post. If someone posts something silly, then it will get acted upon. The users of boards do not need an education on sexiest language.

Why do you think then that so many women have expressed concerns about posting on boards or have left including a long standing and respectful moderator.

My point on the Ladies Lounge thread and here is that there is no calibration across forums.Point was made that different areas require different focus, ie, PI, but point remains there needs to be a basic standard for all. Given how the world has evolved, maybe it needs to be a bit more comprehensive than 'dont be a dick '.

Again, this is not a Mod issue, one for Boards management and how volunteers are supported and trained.

Leg End Reject · 05-04-2021 11:28am

pwurple wrote: »

Nope. but this seems to be very tricky for you to understand. Keep trying, you might get there some day.

Pwurple, how would you feel if a man posted this in response to you? Would you see it as mansplaining and sexist?

It's a dismissive comment suggesting that anyone who disagrees with you is intellectually inferior, and to be blunt, undermines your entire position.

sydthebeat · 05-04-2021 11:35am

Tokyo wrote: »

..... My own approach in general (not just in this thread) is to delete posts that are, being blunt, too dumb to action. Others I card and leave as a visible deterrent for other posters. Other comments that I think will continue to cause the thread to spiral, I action AND delete, with a very clear note to the poster as to why they were actioned, and sometimes accompanied by a threadban.......

Surely if a post deserves action it must have broken some rule of either the whole forum, or the particular sub forum. We all know each has different standards etc

Instead of a ninja deletion, which offers absolutely no incentive towards a behavioural change.... Why don't you simply add a warning to the post, and an instruction not to quote or reply??

In doing so the 'offensive' post remains as proof of the posters posting history trend. It can be used as future evidence should increased action be required against the poster.... In effect posters need to be accountable for what they post, even if borderline. Posting history is important for moderators in getting an idea of certain posters leanings.

To be honest, the deletion of a post without notification either on thread and / or to the poster is probably the worse course of action... Save for doing nothing.

knucklehead6 · 05-04-2021 11:39am

sydthebeat wrote: »

Surely if a post deserves action it must have broken some rule of either the whole forum, or the particular sub forum. We all know each has different standards etc

Instead of a ninja deletion, which offers absolutely no incentive towards a behavioural change.... Why don't you simply add a warning to the post, and an instruction not to quote or reply??

In doing so the 'offensive' post remains as proof of the posters posting history trend. It can be used as future evidence should increased action be required against the poster.... In effect posters need to be accountable for what they post, even if borderline. Posting history is important for moderators in getting an idea of certain posters leanings.

To be honest, the deletion of a post without notification either on thread and / or to the poster is probably the worse course of action... Save for doing nothing.

And if a mod leaves the comment there, along with their mod action note, then there is the very real probability that others will pile on, giving out about such a disgusting comment was allowed stay there.

It’s a no win situation. Putting rules in place to try to limit the options open to the mods/admins is the wrong way to go.

Trying to “calibrate” the behaviour and actions of the mods/admins is the same thing, and limiting their options

anewme · 05-04-2021 11:47am

knucklehead6 wrote: »

And if a mod leaves the comment there, along with their mod action note, then there is the very real probability that others will pile on, giving out about such a disgusting comment was allowed stay there.

It’s a no win situation. Putting rules in place to try to limit the options open to the mods/admins is the wrong way to go.

Trying to “calibrate” the behaviour and actions of the mods/admins is the same thing, and limiting their options

They wouldn't. I've also said it could be partly edited if it's that bad.

The point is there does need to be a more aligned approach of tracking behaviour.

Putting rules in place is there to support and train Volunteers as well as establish a qualitative standard . As Boards is a Commercial entity, it needs to have these regulations in place to support these customer facing staff, be they Volunteers or not.

People are resistant to change, but given the world digitalisation, it is now time to review.

CtevenSrowder · 05-04-2021 11:50am

anewme wrote: »

Why do you think then that so many women have expressed concerns about posting on boards or have left including a long standing and respectful moderator.

My point on the Ladies Lounge thread and here is that there is no calibration across forums.Point was made that different areas require different focus, ie, PI, but point remains there needs to be a basic standard for all. Given how the world has evolved, maybe it needs to be a bit more comprehensive than 'dont be a dick '.

Again, this is not a Mod issue, one for Boards management and how volunteers are supported and trained.

There is a basic standard. Don't be a dick. That is the basic standard that has existed now for years.

A poster left, so what. They'll likely be back in some other form. Plenty have left and come back. Me included.

Many women have not expressed any concerns, some on this thread do not want a change of policy or of moderation. Those that have, should stick to the fora more to their liking. There are women who rarely post in TLL as they don't feel welcome, there are gay people who don't post their views on contentious topics in LGBT forum for the same reasons. Those forums are deemed safe spaces and so be it. But CA should not become another one.

EmmetSpiceland · 05-04-2021 11:50am

TheValeyard wrote: »

This is getting ridiculous. You cannot police what people could post. If someone posts something silly, then it will get acted upon. The users of boards do not need an education on sexiest language.

It’s an odd one, alright. People say there’s no sexism, racism, homophobia, anti-trans, bigotry etc on boards but we all know that’s not true. It’s just “contained”. And that’s a good thing.

What I, personally, found really strange was when one of the CA type user set up a thread in here complaining about how there was a thread in the “Ladies Lounge” forum discussing sexism on the site, particularly in the “Current Affairs” forum, and how these members weren’t entitled to a “safe space” to discuss these things.

Maybe a warning could be set up for users clicking into the “Current Affairs” forum explaining that anyone entering the forum will be subject to, excessive amounts, of blatant sexism, overt racism and other, general, distasteful opinion? It could be further explained that this is proving a “public service” by keeping these users distracted and away from the, more normal, areas from the site.

This would allow the forum moderators to take a “step back” from the, near, round the clock monitoring they are forced to take on now. Obviously, certain things like “personal abuse”, and the like, could still be reported, and actioned, as normal but at the current rate the mods are heading for burn out and without a forum “warning” that could be a disaster for any normal user who ventures into the forum without prior knowledge of what it’s like.

knucklehead6 · 05-04-2021 11:54am

anewme wrote: »

They wouldn't. I've also said it could be partly edited if it's that bad.

The point is there does need to be a more aligned approach of tracking behaviour.

Putting rules in place is there to support and train Volunteers as well as establish a qualitative standard . As Boards is a Commercial entity, it needs to have these regulations in place to support these customer facing staff, be they Volunteers or not.

People are resistant to change, but given the world digitalisation, it is now time to review.

Are you able to say, with 100% certainty that no member would post a comment giving out about a mod action where they left/edited a disgusting post?

Sorry anewme but that’s just not going to happen. You know it. I know it.

The volunteers that mod here do so out of an interest in their forum/subject matter. To suggest they need training, and need to give up more of their free time for said training just because of the comments of a few posters is unfair. I think, and a lot of others think that the mods/admins do enough to handle it.

banie01 · 05-04-2021 11:55am

anewme wrote: »

They wouldn't. I've also said it could be partly edited if it's that bad.

The point is there does need to be a more aligned approach of tracking behaviour.

Putting rules in place is there to support and train Volunteers as well as establish a qualitative standard . As Boards is a Commercial entity, it needs to have these regulations in place to support these customer facing staff, be they Volunteers or not.

People are resistant to change, but given the world digitalisation, it is now time to review.

Tracking behaviour?
By whom?

It's a big leap to assume that because you cannot see the moderator actions a user has been subject to?
That mods and admins can't.

It also lays clear an agenda tbh.

CtevenSrowder · 05-04-2021 11:57am

EmmetSpiceland wrote: »

It’s an odd one, alright. People say there’s no sexism, racism, homophobia, anti-trans, bigotry etc on boards but we all know that’s not true.

Literally no one has said that. No one.

EmmetSpiceland wrote: »

It’s just “contained”. And that’s a good thing.

What I, personally, found really strange was when one of the CA type user set up a thread in here complaining about how there was a thread in the “Ladies Lounge” forum discussing sexism on the site, particularly in the “Current Affairs” forum, and how these members weren’t entitled to a “safe space” to discuss these things.

Maybe a warning could be set up for users clicking into the “Current Affairs” forum explaining that anyone entering the forum will be subject to, excessive amounts, of blatant sexism, overt racism and other, general, distasteful opinion? It could be further explained that this is proving a “public service” by keeping these users distracted and away from the, more normal, areas from the site.

This would allow the forum moderators to take a “step back” from the, near, round the clock monitoring they are forced to take on now. Obviously, certain things like “personal abuse”, and the like, could still be reported, and actioned, as normal but at the current rate the mods are heading for burn out and without a forum “warning” that could be a disaster for any normal user who ventures into the forum without prior knowledge of what it’s like.

Fine, have what 'amounts' to a 'trigger warning', and the let the big boys and girls 'debate'. Maybe have a 'CA/IMHO - Not for the weak minded' banner at the top of the page. The 'rest' can go back to their safe space and mutually console eachother about how racist and sexist boards is. Boo hoo.

[Deleted User] · 05-04-2021 12:08pm

EmmetSpiceland wrote: »

It’s an odd one, alright. People say there’s no sexism, racism, homophobia, anti-trans, bigotry etc on boards but we all know that’s not true. It’s just “contained”. And that’s a good thing.

What I, personally, found really strange was when one of the CA type user set up a thread in here complaining about how there was a thread in the “Ladies Lounge” forum discussing sexism on the site, particularly in the “Current Affairs” forum, and how these members weren’t entitled to a “safe space” to discuss these things.

Maybe a warning could be set up for users clicking into the “Current Affairs” forum explaining that anyone entering the forum will be subject to, excessive amounts, of blatant sexism, overt racism and other, general, distasteful opinion? It could be further explained that this is proving a “public service” by keeping these users distracted and away from the, more normal, areas from the site.

This would allow the forum moderators to take a “step back” from the, near, round the clock monitoring they are forced to take on now. Obviously, certain things like “personal abuse”, and the like, could still be reported, and actioned, as normal but at the current rate the mods are heading for burn out and without a forum “warning” that could be a disaster for any normal user who ventures into the forum without prior knowledge of what it’s like.

Or maybe there could be a notice upon entering the forum that explains to the poster that just because they might believe that what they’re reading is blatant this that and the other, it doesn’t necessarily make it so.

anewme · 05-04-2021 12:24pm

banie01 wrote: »

Tracking behaviour?
By whom?

It's a big leap to assume that because you cannot see the moderator actions a user has been subject to?
That mods and admins can't.

It also lays clear an agenda tbh.

Syd suggested it and I fully agree.

Tracking by mods.

We dont know if they have actioned it or or not, that's the whole issue.

Syd has said that you are often not told when your post is deleted So the behaviour continues.. So thsts not adding any value.

I get that one off sign up trolls should be deleted and banned, unfortunately they keep coming back like Boomerangs.

The only people who want posts deleted would be the ones with the Agenda, ie something to hide.

[Deleted User] · 05-04-2021 12:26pm

There's no greater measure of someone than to note their approach if given a little power

anewme · 05-04-2021 12:31pm

CtevenSrowder wrote: »

Literally no one has said that. No one.

Fine, have what 'amounts' to a 'trigger warning', and the let the big boys and girls 'debate'. Maybe have a 'CA/IMHO - Not for the weak minded' banner at the top of the page. The 'rest' can go back to their safe space and mutually console eachother about how racist and sexist boards is. Boo hoo.

I'd argue that the weak minded are those who want to big themselves up by bringing others down.

Recent case in point, thread about who lives here. Someone posted a link to a persons RIP page.

Yet, the big boys and girls (as you call them) went on to trash the mans home , who couldn't speak back, as hes dead. No debate either.

I know who I'd say were the weak minded ones in this instance.

This is my point about basic levels of respect.

Edited to add: the above example was actioned and deleted by Mods as far as they could. Example used to refute definition of weak minded.

knucklehead6 · 05-04-2021 12:51pm

anewme wrote: »

I'd argue that the weak minded are those who want to big themselves up by bringing others down.

Recent case in point, thread about who lives here. Someone posted a link to a persons RIP page.

Yet, the big boys and girls (as you call them) went on to trash the mans home , who couldn't speak back, as hes dead. No debate either.

I know who I'd say were the weak minded ones in this instance.

This is my point about basic levels of respect.

And yet there was mod action taken. The RIP post was deleted. Whether or not users were sanctioned behind the scenes is unknown.

Is that what you’re after? To know what mod actions (if any) were taken against posters who post something you decide is insulting/degrading?

anewme · 05-04-2021 1:07pm

knucklehead6 wrote: »

And yet there was mod action taken. The RIP post was deleted. Whether or not users were sanctioned behind the scenes is unknown.

Is that what you’re after? To know what mod actions (if any) were taken against posters who post something you decide is insulting/degrading?

My post challenges the definition of weak minded and is a response to the poster who bandied about the term weak minded, but that's very clear.

I'd say that people who feel better for laughing at a dead mans home and possessions are way more weak minded than people speaking out about sexism/racism.

Discussion on sexism

Comments