Relaxation of Restrictions, Part X Read OP For Mod Warnings

Stormyteacup · 01-04-2021 10:19AM

Boggles wrote: »

Citation please?

It’s in the article I linked earlier from IT. Not sure if it’s behind a paywall but,

“Our colleague Cliff Taylor was the first to disclose this new development yesterday. As we report it has led to a furious row within the Government, and with Brussels.

The Attorney General’s letter was said to be “very clear” in expressing concerns that health officials have not followed the correct process or adhered to the legislation the Oireachtas passed on quarantine when formulating their advice.

There was concern that the proposal to add 43 countries had “over-reached” and has “misinterpreted the law we passed” and that European treaty rights and human rights had not been fully considered. Included in that is the right to travel in the EU.

As our reports notes a source saying, Nphet went “way beyond variants to include countries with more Covid than us”.

francogarbanzo · 01-04-2021 10:22AM

gozunda wrote: »

"Main steam media" isn't that phrase usually reserved for conspiracy theorists?

And his facts are indeed correct and that sadly this virus has killed many many more people over 65 compared to younger age groups

Yet the above conveniently ignores the important fact that the current situation is not just about deaths. But in actually keeping the rate of infection down in all age groups so that our health services can continue to cope.

Because the facts are that approx 50% of those in hospital with covid are under 65 years of age.

But maybe for some it's easy to ignore that ...

Implying someone is a conspiracy theorist - isn't that usually reserved for people losing arguments and those who don't want to engage with the substance of a discussion and would rather make ad hominem digs to try and underhandedly discredit someone?

Boggles · 01-04-2021 10:23AM

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/coronavirus/concern-plans-to-extend-hotel-quarantine-could-breach-eu-citizens-rights-1.4525043

Took me 20 seconds. Plus it's been all over the radio/news since last night.

Oh right, it's an interruption of a letter.

The "freedom of movement" was highlighted in a case taken in the High Court last year.

"Detaining" people who may pose a health risk is contained and is quite robust.

_Kaiser_ · 01-04-2021 10:26AM

gozunda wrote: »

"Main steam media" isn't that phrase usually reserved for conspiracy theorists?

And his facts are indeed correct and that sadly this virus has killed many many more people over 65 compared to younger age groups

Yet the above conveniently ignores the important fact that the current situation is not just about deaths. But in actually keeping the rate of infection down in all age groups so that our health services can continue to cope.

Because the facts are that approx 50% of those in hospital with covid are under 65 years of age.

But maybe for some it's easy to ignore that ...

Our health services have been no more stretched (even over Christmas) than they would have been in previous years

The goal posts are conatantly shifted (R-numbers, curve-flattening, case numbers, incidence rates etc etc etc) to keep people uncertain and fearful (let's not forget the infamous "worry chart" they rolled out), and ultimately to deflect from the reality that...

* Despite an unlimited budget they have done almost nothing to increase capacity where it's needed

* Despite 12 months of actual data, we're still pretending it's March 2020 when we justifably feared this COULD be a deadly mass killer - which it's not!

* For the last 20+ years these same officials have squandered tens of billions every year for very little return to the public who rely on those services and are, in many cases, paying twice for them - through taxation and expensive private healthcare

THOSE are the important facts here, not continued scare-mongering, finger-wagging and blame-shifting to obscure the reality that we have an extremely expensive healthcare system that has continually failed to get even the very basics right under the watch of these people.

TonyMaloney · 01-04-2021 10:27AM

francogarbanzo wrote: »

Implying someone is a conspiracy theorist - isn't that usually reserved for people losing arguments and those who don't want to engage with the substance of a discussion and would rather make ad hominem digs to try and underhandedly discredit someone?

It's wall to wall conspiracy theorists in this place.

Many don't believe the stated goals of nphet and the government. They think it's about taking away our freedom in the long term.

Stick around a minute and you'll see

gozunda · 01-04-2021 10:31AM

francogarbanzo wrote: »

Implying someone is a conspiracy theorist - isn't that usually reserved for people losing arguments and those who don't want to engage with the substance of a discussion and would rather make ad hominem digs to try and underhandedly discredit someone?

Sobit1964 wrote: »

You really make your posts appear as though they are written by a wide eyed loon when you start them out with dross like this.

Shame, as you actually post some pretty decent stuff.

Ouch!

Implied nothing btw. But yes the phrase does indeed tend to be the reserve of conspiracy theorists. Simply pointing that out. That said I'm sure its also used in other contexts.

Though funnily enough posters actually calling others 'wide-eyed loons' & etc seems to be acceptable here :rollleyes:

https://www.meetup.com/topics/mainstream-media-conspiracy/

MOH · 01-04-2021 10:34AM

gozunda wrote: »

Asked to help keep the rate of infection down and observe restrictions? who the f*ck cares? Just do whatever you want and feel comfortable with...

Bit hard to take endless restrictions seriously when the people insisting on them have zero credibility, and when in fact some of them may be causing greater risk.

"There is no remaining serious justification for the 5 kilometre limit.

The public health concern is how people behave around others – not how far they are from their home. In fact, the research shows that this limit may in fact be forcing people in urban areas into more crowded situations.
...
there is a very real danger of a growing division in the population between those who fear change and those who are angry about restrictions which appear to not be fully justified
...
We don’t need empty feel-good advertising with a single photo and a hashtag.”

Wonder who said all that?

Then there's Philip Nolan, the man who believes retrospective contact tracing is merely an academic exercise. Despite being a vital component of identifying and containing clusters, which every major international organisation has said since the start of the pandemic is a key factor in controlling the spread. Never mind something that's blindingly obvious. And this science-denier is the head of the NPHET epidemiological modelling group.

We supposedly last July had mandatory home quarantine after international travel last summer. But put literally zero effort into enforcing it, we only started in February. Elsewhere in Europe there were checks and fines in place last summer. And are still making minimal effort - despite a commitment in the latest "plan" to put more resources into this in particular.

The government did nothing - literally nothing - for the whole of 2020 to proactively try to reduce the spread of coronavirus. Instead they put the entire responsibility on the general public.

Proper contact tracing and enforced quarantine are the two key things which would have drastically curtailed the spread of covid, and the government and NPHET members abjectly failed to implement either. The relative effect of individuals failing to observe restrictions (which the Taoiseach is on record as saying aren't worthwhile) pales in comparison to the volume of cases caused the government's failure to implement any coherent strategy throughout the pandemic.

gozunda · 01-04-2021 10:36AM

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

Our health services have been no more stretched (even over Christmas) than they would have been in previous years

...

I've posted this previously in another thread. I think its no harm posting it again.

Our health services have not hit capacity simply because both HCWs and others have been working their arses off to make sure it hasn't. All the while dealing with non stop admissions of covid patients for well over a year. And no a few lighthearted Tiktok videos don't change that.

And yes there has been increased capacity with up to a 1000 covid patients being dealt with at a time.

A significant amount of money has been spent on coping with the redeployment of existing healtcare services towards the treatment and management of covid patients and increased real-time ICU admissions.

And yes we have seen a rise in ICU capacity. Available data shows the baseline capacity in ICU increased up to 280 up from 255 in March / April 2020. Afaik the surge capacity for ICU beds stands at approx 350.

It also has to be understood that ICU capacity is not just beds - but also fully trained and available clinical staff, clinical space, clinical equipment, oxygen supply and
Hospital / Hospital Group / HSE system supports. And yes more ventilators were bought although less invasive oxygen support is increasingly used where possible.

But hey who cares about facts when its easier to score cheap hits with bs like "The HSE's shambles of a health service is no justification for us committing economic suicide"

Ireland haves imposed restrictions - as other countries have who have tried to keep the infection rate down. And yes we've had a progressive build up of restrictions. In part to the huge spike we had over the Christmas period and to deal with the continued impacts of a variant with a much higher transmissibility.

There is no doubt the pandemic has hugely hit our economy and yet Ireland was the only economy in Europe last year which grew.

The sooner we get everyone who needs it vaccinated - then the sooner we can start into economic recovery. It's really not that difficult to understand.

Its really not that difficult to understand

francogarbanzo · 01-04-2021 10:37AM

TonyMaloney wrote: »

It's wall to wall conspiracy theorists in this place.

Many don't believe the stated goals of nphet and the government. They think it's about taking away our freedom in the long term.

Stick around a minute and you'll see

I know that some (see: few) people believe that.

I'm highlighting the absurdity of implying someone is a conspiracy theorist because they used the phrase "mainstream media".

https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-27772070

Is the BBC a "conspiracy theory" outlet?

Boggles · 01-04-2021 10:38AM

MOH wrote: »

"There is no remaining serious justification for the 5 kilometre limit.

It's going on the 12th after the Easter Holidays.

Again lifting restrictions.

France meanwhile.

Lockdown measures, introduced in some areas of France earlier this month, are also being extended to other districts.

All non-essential shops are to close from Saturday and there will be a ban on travelling more than 10km (six miles) from home without good reason.

The country is facing a peak of over 5,000 people in intensive care

Stormyteacup · 01-04-2021 10:39AM

gozunda wrote: »

"Main steam media" isn't that phrase usually reserved for conspiracy theorists?

And his facts are indeed correct and that sadly this virus has killed many many more people over 65 compared to younger age groups

Yet the above conveniently ignores the important fact that the current situation is not just about deaths. But in actually keeping the rate of infection down in all age groups so that our health services can continue to cope.

Because the facts are that approx 50% of those in hospital with covid are under 65 years of age.

But maybe for some it's easy to ignore that ...

Yes, I suppose the phrase mainstream media has links to conspiracy theorists - I generally use it here to avoid the tangential and distraction of debating the merits or lack thereof, of the source material.

I’m not sure if you’re including me in the ‘some’ that find it easy to ignore the protection of the health system. Hospital stats however are less clear than death stats, but yes it’s important health services are not overwhelmed. That’s another argument.

The point I was making was that the article was more in line with how I would expect media to respond to decision and policy making by government and NPHET.

francogarbanzo · 01-04-2021 10:41AM

gozunda wrote: »

Ouch!

Implied nothing btw. But yes the phrase does indeed tend to be the reserve of conspiracy theorists. Simply pointing that out.

https://www.meetup.com/topics/mainstream-media-conspiracy/

Nothing was implied. Got it. Just a casual observation and nothing more.

WallyGUFC · 01-04-2021 10:46AM

Boggles wrote: »

It's going on the 12th after the Easter Holidays.

Again lifting restrictions.

France meanwhile.

France hasn't been in lockdown since October with a 3 week break though.

MOH · 01-04-2021 10:51AM

Boggles wrote: »

It's going on the 12th after the Easter Holidays.

Again lifting restrictions.

France meanwhile.

(It's annoying when people whinge about posts not including citations, and then don't bother reading them when they are provided).

Yes, lifting a restriction which has been in force for much of the past 5 months, which the Taoiseach claimed 10 months ago might actually be forcing people into closer proximity. Pity he didn't supply details of the research then.

France meanwhile ... what? Are only closing non-essential shops now? Are introducing a travel restriction double what we've had? I'm not au fait with ongoing French restrictions but that sounds like they're a lot less locked down than we've been for the past 5 months.

Boggles · 01-04-2021 10:52AM

WallyGUFC wrote: »

France hasn't been in lockdown since October with a 3 week break though.

October 28th

French President Emmanuel Macron has announced new coronavirus disease (COVID-19) restrictions from Friday, October 30, following an increase in cases nationwide. Signed permits are to be required for people leaving home and movement between regions is prohibited. People may only leave their homes for essential purposes, such as to purchase essential goods, seek medical attention, or to exercise (once daily for an hour). Schools are to remain open, while universities will commence online teaching. Working from home is encouraged. Bars and restaurants will be required to close for the duration of the lockdown, with the measures to remain in place until at least December 1; it is to be reviewed after 15 days. Macron stated that the lockdown would be lifted once daily new infections fell to around 5000 per day.

Keyzer · 01-04-2021 10:53AM

WallyGUFC wrote: »

France hasn't been in lockdown since October with a 3 week break though.

That's nonsense - you're either lying or ignorant.

There are restrictions in France, specifically in Paris.

It may not be labelled "lockdown" but its as good as. Not the exact same restrictions as in place as in Ireland but not far off.

https://en.parisinfo.com/practical-paris/info/guides/info-disruption-paris

Boggles · 01-04-2021 10:55AM

MOH wrote: »

France meanwhile ... what? Are only closing non-essential shops now? Are introducing a travel restriction double what we've had? I'm not au fait with ongoing French restrictions but that sounds like they're a lot less locked down than we've been for the past 5 months.

If only someone invented a search function.

gozunda · 01-04-2021 10:59AM

francogarbanzo wrote: »

Nothing was implied. Got it. Just a casual observation and nothing more.

Is it possible to make a factual observation regarding that phrase and not have those who try to use that as a big stick to hit others with?

But yes even the poster to who I replied agreed. And his point is absolutely fair enough. In my experience it "usually" is. That however does not mean the phrase cannot be used in other contexts.

Stormyteacup wrote: »

Yes, I suppose the phrase mainstream media has links to conspiracy theorists - I generally use it here to avoid the tangential and distraction of debating the merits or lack thereof, of the source material...

_Kaiser_ · 01-04-2021 10:59AM

Boggles wrote: »

If only someone invented a search function.

Indeed...

Boggles wrote: »

Citation please?

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/coronavirus/concern-plans-to-extend-hotel-quarantine-could-breach-eu-citizens-rights-1.4525043

Took me 20 seconds. Plus it's been all over the radio/news since last night.

Idbatterim · 01-04-2021 11:00AM

darem93 wrote: »

https://twitter.com/IrishTimesBiz/status/1377523637885022208

And so it begins... the devastating effects of NPHET and the government's "cautious" approach to the pandemic. But sure let's just keep adding weeks and months on to this "crucial" period while the country continues to wrack up debt and more and more people risk losing their jobs permanently.

I seriously hope some major accountability is taken when this mess is all over.

I am irish , what does the word accountability mean?

Boggles · 01-04-2021 11:02AM

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

Indeed...

I asked for citation for a vague post referring to a very specific thing. Which turned out to be 3rd hand information at best.

He is asking for a whole run down on the pandemic in France. Not the same thing, but you know that.

He was provided with a quote from the BBC on the current stay of play though.

Which is grim.

growleaves · 01-04-2021 11:05AM

Meanwhile in FL:

Ron DeSantis signs bill protecting Florida businesses, health care centers from 'frivolous COVID-19' lawsuits

Desantis also announced Monday that businesses are not required to make customers present COVID-19 vaccine passports upon entry or before receiving certain services, citing privacy concerns.

"It’s completely unacceptable for either the government or the private sector to impose upon you the requirement that you show proof of vaccine to just simply be able to participate in normal society," DeSantis said during a Monday press conference, adding that such a measure would have "huge privacy implications."

Idbatterim · 01-04-2021 11:07AM

Why is the government allowing thousands 0f hospital admissions and deaths a year, by having cigarettes legal ?

750 deaths a year in dublin due to air pollution, that kill the vulnerable... thaus notcwirthy of mention no? But a covid death on the other hand .

MOH · 01-04-2021 11:10AM

Boggles wrote: »

If only someone invented a search function.

If only somebody who regularly moans about other people not providing sources wasn't a total hypocrite and bothered to include them themselves.

Especially when they're trying to derail a conversation about existing Irish restrictions by bringing up incoming restrictions in a different country.
Meanwhile .. in New Zealand .. everything is great.

ArthurDayne · 01-04-2021 11:13AM

gozunda wrote: »

Nothing igored my friend. Simply replied to the comment. Sorry that does not suit.

Lol though you bizarrely claiming a comment based on actual data is "word vomit" when your reply is little more than what could be described as yet another load of verbose scutter is quite funny

But what you're trying to now claim is that people can just make up ****e, add some made up 'facts' and that justifies those talking manure?

One thing in all that at least in some deep recess you're acknowledging that having successfully got the rate of infection down - that restrictions are working.

Good. We're making some progress at least.

I think though that it might help to find a middle ground here. At the government press briefing yesterday, Philip Nolan said this: “Any significant increase in social contact [...] is likely to lead to a significant additional wave — somewhere between what we saw in October and what we saw in January”

When the person you were responding was talking about goalposts constantly being moved, there is in fact a good deal of reasonable justification for saying this. The purpose of lockdown was not to abolish death, nor was it to abolish Covid deaths — it was to prevent a collapse of the health service which would lead to the inability to cope with Covid infections and other types of medical issues, and which would in turn cause mass excess death.

In January, the health service was under severe strain. It did not collapse. So what Phillip Nolan told us last night was that significant increases in social contact would cause a wave of severity somewhere between two previous spikes — neither of which caused the health service to collapse. So it is not, in any way, outrageous to point out that it now looks as though the justification used a year ago to encourage (or perhaps even frighten) people into tolerating the suppression of civil liberties / socioeconomic destruction / a year long cycle of psychological stress has now shifted to a new one. The same extreme measures a year on, justified on a significantly less extreme permutation.

But it’s interesting how, in contrast to almost every other issue of current affairs, things like this are not immediately pounced on by the media. No tough questions were asked about this, nobody seemed to bat an eyelid, and therefore one is often left wondering why the extraordinary measures we are living under are not being subjected to extraordinary scrutiny.

Terence Rattigan · 01-04-2021 11:16AM

Michael Martin`s mask has slipped a few times, hasn`t it?

"You can forget your take away pints!" "Get Real!"

The arrogance of the man. an interesting anagram of Michael Martin - "Am Manic Hitler"

A reckoning will come at the next GE, we have notoriously short memories, but i think this time it will be different, perhaps the spectre of SF in power will see voters vote for the lesser of two evils though.

Boggles · 01-04-2021 11:18AM

MOH wrote: »

Especially when they're trying to derail a conversation

You mean this?

There is no remaining serious justification for the 5 kilometre limit

It's going on the 12th like I pointed out to you. But for some reason you don't seem pleased.

Ireland are easing restrictions, some countries in Europe are reimposing more.

I can't see how that is not pertinent in a thread that constantly compares Ireland to the rest of Europe and sometimes individual States.

Boggles · 01-04-2021 11:20AM

Terence Rattigan wrote: »

The arrogance of the man. an interesting anagram of Michael Martin - "Am Manic Hitler"

:pac:

Klonker · 01-04-2021 11:21AM

Stormyteacup wrote: »

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/basic-schoolboy-error-in-changes-to-vaccine-and-quarantine-programmes-1.4526011?mode=amp

Quite a scathing criticism of government and NPHET from Harry McGee in IT today.

I think this is the first MSM article I’ve read that lays the death stats bare.

“Anyone who in the past year has scrolled through the data of the weekly reports of the Health Protection Surveillance Centre will see how obvious the age factor is.

I had a quick look at the latest data yesterday. The overall percentages have been more or less the same each time I have looked at them. The stark reality is that 92 per cent of the 4,667 people who have died with Covid-19 were 65 years of age and over. A further 5.2 per cent were over 55.

That means only 2.6 per cent of people who died were under 55.

That’s 126 people out of 4,667. Only 50 people under the age of 45 have died, slightly over 1 per cent. That’s less people dying in that age bracket than in a bad flu season.”

Oh no, he said the ‘F’ word.

I think it's actually up to 50 under 45s that have died now but his point still stands.

I was trying to find out total cases by age group but the latest I could find was as at 11 January when around 61% were under 45. If we use that percentage to total cases as of now (I think 61% is on the conservative side especially since the vaccine effect kicked in and young people couldnt get tested back in March and April last year). Total cases now is about 235,000 cases. That makes it 1 in about 3000 reported cases under 45 dying of covid. A conservative estimate would be we have missed about 50% of cases through the pandamic, especially in young people with little symptoms (recent pop up testing centres would point to this being the case too) is that would be about 1 in 6,000 people under 45 who caught covid dying from it.

*The above is all under 45s by the way, with and without underlying conditions. Could use the 92% of deaths had underlying condition to this but its hard say for sure how that 92% translates to each age group.

The Big Easy · 01-04-2021 11:29AM

Terence Rattigan wrote: »

Michael Martin`s mask has slipped a few times, hasn`t it?

"You can forget your take away pints!" "Get Real!"

The arrogance of the man. an interesting anagram of Michael Martin - "Am Manic Hitler"

A reckoning will come at the next GE, we have notoriously short memories, but i think this time it will be different, perhaps the spectre of SF in power will see voters vote for the lesser of two evils though.

If there's an election anytime in the next year, we'll see a Dàil of Independents returned. It'll be the only way we can express our frustration.

The incompetence of Government has been matched, if not surpassed by opposition parties and their calls for harsher restrictions and zero covid.

Relaxation of Restrictions, Part X *Read OP For Mod Warnings*

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Relaxation of Restrictions, Part X Read OP For Mod Warnings