EU Lead Ammunition Ban

tudderone · 27-03-2021 3:39pm

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

ESp as we have been eating French and Belgian foodstuffs for decades. Grown on appx 400 million tonnes of lead and other unpleasant stuff on the former battlefields of WW1.So why is that safe and all of a sudden eating your veggies grown 300 meters from your local range is? Simple really...Lead being heavy has a tendency to well...sink.Even in soil. So once it sinks beyond a certain depth, usually as far as a deep plough cut it becomes a moot problem as crop plants dont grow deep enough to be infected.
Ergo, we EU wide are hardly firing that amount of lead into the environment as was in Passendale,nor is it soft lead either. It is coated lead that is even unaffected by sulphuric acid!, IOW our shot sinks eventually in rivers and lakes and fields past the plant roots and is harmless too.
Plus you are more likely to get lead poisoning from your veggies grown next to a motorway than grown on the 1foot of topsoil on a range berm,were we to grow such there.

Which is an valid argument that even a pimpily youth of 13 could make, which proves to me that it is nothing to do with lead in foodstuffs, but a way of killing off shooting sports and making gun ownership pointless.

27-03-2021 5:32pm

Asus1 wrote: »

I'd love to know have they taken soil samples from shooting ranges to say how high the lead readings were compared to an area that had no shooting done on it.Now we all know that the shooting range will of course have a higher reading as it's an area that gets covered in lead,but does that matter as no food stuffs is being taken from it.If the site is polluting grounds outside it's boundaries that's another matter.
I'm just at a loss as to why if it's true that they are removing lead from ammunition to remove firearms from the general population they think it will decrease terrorism.No one is that stupid it is just not a rational explanation.

Id say no, this isnt about firearms accessible by terrorists or criminals or illegal organisations, they will acquire weapons one way or another, maybe other means or more significant means to reach their end goal.
It seems to me to be more a means to control and maybe reduce accessibility to firearms and shooting sports in the general population imo, not to stop terrorists getting access to anything, that might say that, but they will deal with criminals/terrorists by other means, as any such group will always try/need to access something or turn/use something to a more nefarious end, eg many chemicals available could be used to make explosives, which might serve a terrorists ends better than a firearm.

Regarding testing of target ranges soil, I think it would be relatively easy to create target boxes that direct and capture lead (probably already occurring), anything else in there might be considered to be fouled with lead,Ive never been able to distinguish much physical lead among what Ive seen inside a target box. In general, for the occasional shot over land of a shotgun cartridge it would surprise me if there would be a significant increase in lead readings over maybe an area that has it naturally occurring. Maybe alternatives are viable such steel shot or someone mentioned copper, surely its viable for cartridge manufacturers to come up with alternative options anyway, in which case, what complaints could there be? and what is the original complaint/opposition in regard to? is it completely that its lead?

tudderone · 27-03-2021 6:59pm

1874 wrote: »

Maybe alternatives are viable such steel shot or someone mentioned copper, surely its viable for cartridge manufacturers to come up with alternative options anyway, in which case, what complaints could there be? and what is the original complaint/opposition in regard to? is it completely that its lead?

Steel shot is available, but it is nowhere near as good as lead, if it were cartridge/shot manufacturers would have been using it since the 1800's or before, but didn't. It doesn't carry its energy as well, being lighter in weight, meaning effective range is reduced, it cannot be shot through older guns as it will score the barrels, and if you try to increase the performance to lead levels, its lke shooting magnum loads all the time. Add to that on game, as steel is nowhere as soft and malleable as lead, it doesn't deform and dump its energy into the body of the animal or bird, meaning steel tends to pass through, resulting in wounded birds.

Zxthinger · 27-03-2021 7:21pm

Lead has the required specific gravity and malleability to allow a package to conform to a barrel's form and travel down range with the least amount of fluid displacement and deliver energy on the target with ideal deformation even at low velocities...

Perhaps some larger bore firearms are better placed to adopt copper bullets as they might have the external ballistic to absorb a lower ballistic coefficient but such limitations on small bore firearms is too much.. many already operate at the envelope of limits related to the complexities of bullet stability.

Maybe we should just go back to the musket............oh sugar that uses lead too..
What about reverting to archery.. of drat.. that heavily restricted too..

Don't forget that these people who have drafted this are clowns bereft of any firearms knowledge and they are more concerned with legacy building than environmental concerns

Gs of Metals
Copper 8.96
Silver 10.49
Lead 11.34
Gold 19.32

badaj0z · 27-03-2021 8:50pm

Copy, copy, copy the survey link and a link to this thread to all of your shooting FB friends , Whatsapp, Signal, Instagram, Reddit, TicToc and whatever other medium you prefer. Get it out there. Embarrass all shooters you know into supporting the survey and into leaning on the groups they are in, such as the NASRPC, TSI, NARGC, SC, etc., to submit documents in support of the FUN objection referenced above. The video has good arguments but I wish they had chosen a backdrop that was more neutral. A better acronym would have done no harm either but they have made a start.

Grizzly 45 · 28-03-2021 2:23pm

badaj0z wrote: »

The video has good arguments but I wish they had chosen a backdrop that was more neutral. A better acronym would have done no harm either but they have made a start.

Noted and will be passed on...
The original was just FU:D:D:D
Remember this is a Polish operation on this level that has a total F.."K U attitude to people telling them what to do even worse than us Irish,probably because like us they have been occupied and oppressed by larger neighbours East and West for centuries too. But were a lot more Bolshie about it.

Those guns are legal to possess and own all over the EU, more or less, and the whole idea is to be a more "in your face " operation and to be unapologetic to our aims and demands,or what we shoot. Being all nicey-nicey and beating about the bush with long-winded acronyms has got us precisely...Nowhere fast in the last 25 years anywhere.:) Going with modern media tactics and from the Wokeist playbook.Those who shout loudest and act ,get the most attention and media coverage".

Zxthinger · 28-03-2021 6:25pm

,FUN mentioned forming your own attack on this issue. Anyone know what envolved in doing that

jb88 · 29-03-2021 12:00pm

I am aware of a scrap dealer in Ireland who dug out a range and sifted all of the lead for a range owner, took the brass as well.

Didnt see him complaining. Made money out of it.

jb88 · 29-03-2021 2:41pm

Another well respected and great clay club near me have an area in a crop field fenced off with wire and im sure a lot of shot goes out over the crops, never hear any complaints, in fact the land owner selected that spot especially.

Lots of shot if you consider 20 guys twice a week back in the day over 6 -7 years firing 50 -100 rounds per time.

badaj0z · 29-03-2021 7:27pm

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

badaj0z wrote: »

Those guns are legal to possess and own all over the EU, more or less, and the whole idea is to be a more "in your face " operation and to be unapologetic to our aims and demands,or what we shoot. Being all nicey-nicey and beating about the bush with long-winded acronyms has got us precisely...Nowhere fast in the last 25 years anywhere.:) Going with modern media tactics and from the Wokeist playbook.Those who shout loudest and act ,get the most attention and media coverage".

That is all true Griz but you also have to recognise that getting the attention of a larger audience is important but persuading them that your arguments have value is also important. Most "neutral" people, coming to this debate, will see weapons they recognise from action movies on that FUD backdrop, not "sporting " firearms.

Grizzly 45 · 29-03-2021 9:19pm

badaj0z wrote: »

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

That is all true Griz but you also have to recognise that getting the attention of a larger audience is important but persuading them that your arguments have value is also important. Most "neutral" people, coming to this debate, will see weapons they recognise from action movies on that FUD backdrop, not "sporting " firearms.

FUN please!:D Dont want to be associated with people who are trying to
shut down shooting sports by their own pettiness and agendas.

Well,I'll pass it on but knowing Tomaz..He'll proably hang a Barrett 50 cal rifle there instead, along with a couple of AK style rifles instead for the next one.:D
These Polish lads give less than zero fks for peoples feelings or images I can tell you.:eek:

Grizzly 45 · 29-03-2021 9:30pm

For those of you with contacts in political parties;
Here is a breakdown of who voted for us and against us in Brussels on the lead ban.

FOR
Chris MacManus [SF]
Billy Kelliher [FF]

AGAINST
Deidre Clune [FG]
Francis Fitzgerald [FG]
Sean Kelly[ FG]
Colm Markey [FG]
Maria Walsh [FG]

Crian Cuffe [GP]
Grace O Sullivan [GP]}

NGL
Ming Flanagan [IND]
Clare Daly [IND]
Mick Wallace [IND]

MIght want to pass this list about any political contacts you all might have and mention this as going to be rememberd next elections.

Mississippi. · 29-03-2021 10:48pm

What's the NGL ?

tonysopprano · 30-03-2021 12:52am

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

For those of you with contacts in political parties;
Here is a breakdown of who voted for us and against us in Brussels on the lead ban.

FOR
Chris MacManus [SF]
Billy Kelliher [FF]

AGAINST
Deidre Clune [FG]
Francis Fitzgerald [FG]
Sean Kelly[ FG]
Colm Markey [FG]
Maria Walsh [FG]

Crian Cuffe [GP]
Grace O Sullivan [GP]}

NGL
Ming Flanagan [IND]
Clare Daly [IND]
Mick Wallace [IND]

MIght want to pass this list about any political contacts you all might have and mention this as going to be rememberd next elections.

This is the email I got From Clair Daly,

A chara,

I'm sending you this email because you contacted me in the last several days concerning the vote on the urgent procedure for the Digital Green Certificate in the European Parliament. I received a huge volume of emails from concerned people over this period, so many that I regret it has not been possible to reply to everyone immediately. I am very grateful to everyone who has gotten in touch, and have taken on board the concerns raised.

The vote took place on Thursday morning. As you may know, I voted against the Commission's request for an urgent procedure, because I believe there are serious concerns about the Digital Green Certificate, and something like this should not be rushed through.

Disappointingly, despite our best efforts, the Parliament did not vote against it overall, therefore undermining our ability to scrutinize the proposal. That said, I think there will be very serious legal blockages to any suggestion that such a scheme would be made mandatory for travel purposes or any other reason. It seems to me the Commission is already realising this and is not suggesting vaccine-only documents.

We will continue to keep a watching brief.

All the best
Clare Daly

What does NGL signify?

Zxthinger · 30-03-2021 2:59am

Digital Green me hole!! How many birds are there wind turbines killing every year..
pure BS

Grizzly 45 · 30-03-2021 12:36pm

tonysopprano wrote: »

What does NGL signify?

Nordic Green Left...Google is your pal. This lot certainly are not!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_United_Left%E2%80%93Nordic_Green_Left

tudderone · 30-03-2021 1:49pm

Zxthinger wrote: »

Digital Green me hole!! How many birds are there wind turbines killing every year..
pure BS

Bird choppers, something the shrieking greta the know-all seems to keep quiet about

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8NAAzBArYdw

Feisar · 30-03-2021 2:18pm

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

For those of you with contacts in political parties;
Here is a breakdown of who voted for us and against us in Brussels on the lead ban.

FOR
Chris MacManus [SF]
Billy Kelliher [FF]

AGAINST
Deidre Clune [FG]
Francis Fitzgerald [FG]
Sean Kelly[ FG]
Colm Markey [FG]
Maria Walsh [FG]

Crian Cuffe [GP]
Grace O Sullivan [GP]}

NGL
Ming Flanagan [IND]
Clare Daly [IND]
Mick Wallace [IND]

MIght want to pass this list about any political contacts you all might have and mention this as going to be rememberd next elections.

GooseB · 31-03-2021 6:38pm

I got an ECHA update email today, if anyone - or any organisations, wish to submit questions or suggestions (Like forget about the whole thing!):

Info session on restriction proposal of lead in outdoor shooting and fishing
15 April 2021 11:00 - 13:00 (Helsinki time)

Learn about the REACH restriction process and how to submit comments to the consultation on the restriction proposal of lead in outdoor shooting and fishing. You can send questions to our experts in advance using this form. No registration is required. A live Q&A session will take place during the webinar.

"Summary
ECHA has published its proposal to restrict the use of lead in ammunition for hunting and outdoor sports shooting as well as in fishing.

A six-month consultation was launched on 24 March 2021.

This information session introduces the REACH restriction process, describes the proposed restriction on lead in outdoor shooting and fishing and explains how to submit comments to the consultation.

No registration is required. Join the information session via our homepage on the day of the event at 11:00 EET.

You can send questions to our experts in advance using this form (until 17:00 EET 11 April). You may also ask us questions during in a live question and answer session on 15 April from 11:00 to 13:00 EET using this link or entering the event code #lead in Sli.do.com.

Further information:

Have your say on proposed restriction of lead in outdoor shooting, hunting and fishing, 24 March 2021
Towards sustainable outdoor shooting and fishing – ECHA proposes restrictions on lead use, 3 February 2021
Hot topics: lead in shot, bullets and fishing weights"

https://echa.europa.eu/-/consultation-on-the-restriction-proposal-of-lead-in-outdoor-shooting-and-fishing?utm_source=echa-weekly&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=weekly&utm_content=20210331&_cldee=YXNhLnJlZG1vbmRAeWFob28uaWU%3d&recipientid=lead-1a7503642b24eb118125005056b9310e-aac45f4d9a33409aa78053b3e1e089b3&esid=10933d8e-f691-eb11-812a-005056b9310e

Mississippi. · 31-03-2021 10:30pm

Just after finding my own reply from the ECHA. It was sent two weeks ago but was in the junk mail folder

tudderone · 02-04-2021 6:05pm

The game dealers are the ones pushing for the ban. The driven shoots have to dance to their tune or they cannot sell their shot game. Tungsten super shot £2.50 a bang, 3 euro + ! Looks like shooting will be a rich mans sport again !

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3H5ei5kx8ck

tudderone · 02-04-2021 11:01pm

The norwegian parliament repealed their total lead ban in 2015. Lead can be used in areas outside true wetlands.

https://www.shootinguk.co.uk/news/lead_shot_ban_vote_norway-42462

Zxthinger · 04-04-2021 12:22pm

Manufacturers support lead ban.. my arse!

As per usual consultation with one ticks the consultation box and provided the convenient answer needed..

https://youtu.be/rAL_z7lsHh0

I also added the two pages on the EPA parameters pertaining to lead and the main concern in Ireland is shagging lead pipes..

The whole the ban is pure nonsense made up with lies and misinformation all designed to make more guns obsolete..

Fight the ban..

tudderone · 04-04-2021 10:32pm

You have a better chance of getting bitten by a poisonous snake in the UK than ending up in hospital with lead poisoning (according to their stats). This ban is a crock of crap.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XFs6kmYjQfU

useurowname · 06-04-2021 12:36am

The Brits seemed to have accepted this for game shooting, if they’ve thrown in the towel with their lobby we can go whistle. Cos any time the NARGC go near the mainstream press they end up looking like D’Unbelievable’s.
Not happy but I can live with it for game shooting, I’ve a modern gun and use less than 100 rounds a year on game. So it’s a little more cost and a little less performance. That won’t be everyone’s experience.
If it impacts target shooting and clays .. that’s a different story.

tudderone · 06-04-2021 1:05am

useurowname wrote: »

The Brits seemed to have accepted this for game shooting, if they’ve thrown in the towel with their lobby we can go whistle. Cos any time the NARGC go near the mainstream press they end up looking like D’Unbelievable’s.
Not happy but I can live with it for game shooting, I’ve a modern gun and use less than 100 rounds a year on game. So it’s a little more cost and a little less performance. That won’t be everyone’s experience.
If it impacts target shooting and clays .. that’s a different story.

It will, its a total lead ban, this is just the first bit.

otmmyboy2 · 06-04-2021 11:51am

tudderone wrote: »

It will, its a total lead ban, this is just the first bit.

Agree wholeheartedly, it's always a slippery slope with antis, and a lead ban is a hell of a steep slope.

cookimonster · 06-04-2021 12:28pm

Some interesting info for both rifle and shotgun-

Rifle Ammunition -

https://youtu.be/ME9wnU8VKZw

Shotguns -

https://youtu.be/3H5ei5kx8ck

tudderone · 06-04-2021 1:17pm

cookimonster wrote: »

Some interesting info for both rifle and shotgun-

Rifle Ammunition -

https://youtu.be/ME9wnU8VKZw

Shotguns -

https://youtu.be/3H5ei5kx8ck

Thats the video above. The guy is a plonker, "Oh what does £3+ a shot for tungsten matter when you are out driven shooting" ? Sounds like "Oh i've scratched the Bentley, i better buy a new one". :rolleyes:

cookimonster · 06-04-2021 3:09pm

tudderone wrote: »

Thats the video above. The guy is a plonker, "Oh what does £3+ a shot for tungsten matter when you are out driven shooting" ? Sounds like "Oh i've scratched the Bentley, i better buy a new one". :rolleyes:

Ahh yes..... I got distracted from the thread.

But more importantly from that vid is from 22 mins in and the discussion in layman's terms about steal shot and its compatibility with none steal proofed guns. After a bit of reading and research I'm happier to shoot the appropriate steel shot out of my non steal proofed o/u with 1/2 and full chokes.

Equally delighted to see that I will be able to shoot roughly equivalent grain weight bullets in my centre fire as I was worried I had to go down a grain for equal results.

Shooting Forum - Firearms licencing information

EU Lead Ammunition Ban

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