EU Lead Ammunition Ban

tudderone

cookimonster wrote: »

Ahh yes..... I got distracted from the thread.

But more importantly from that vid is from 22 mins in and the discussion in layman's terms about steal shot and its compatibility with none steal proofed guns. After a bit of reading and research I'm happier to shoot the appropriate steel shot out of my non steal proofed o/u with 1/2 and full chokes.

Equally delighted to see that I will be able to shoot roughly equivalent grain weight bullets in my centre fire as I was worried I had to go down a grain for equal results.

Your centrefire rifle, will be fine if you are deer stalking, you'll just be paying a bit more for the ammo. Could work out very expensive if you are a target shooter. The steel in the shotgun ? Yes you can shoot it, but the performance isn't anywhere as good as lead. If you want to shoot high birds or at a decent distance, you would have to go to tungsten, which is hugely expensive, about 3k a thousand.

https://www.justcartridges.com/product/impact-tungsten-matrix-12ga/

Zxthinger

Of course the study is going to report with green light. These animals were shot with larger calibers at close distances (~for the calibre)
Part of the study claims an average of 300yds but the older balding gent specifically quotes a max range of 280yds.. to 80 yds min.. i think

Big diff between 300 yards avg and a 180 yard avg ........

The facts are that less meat damage shows that there is less energy transfer..

These are professional hunters with sales on their mind.. and they just want the lead-free status for sales..

Small calibers will suffer..

Foxes running on...?..

tudderone

Zxthinger wrote: »

Of course the study is going to report with green light. These animals were shot with larger calibers at close distances (~for the calibre)
Part of the study claims an average of 300yds but the older balding gent specifically quotes a max range of 280yds.. to 80 yds min.. i think

Big diff between 300 yards avg and a 180 yard avg ........

The facts are that less meat damage shows that there is less energy transfer..

These are professional hunters with sales on their mind.. and they just want the lead-free status for sales..

Small calibers will suffer..

Foxes running on...?..

The only experience i have of copper is the lad i know in Scotland who has being using it for about ten years or so in a .270. He likes its, reckons it kills deer as well as anything else. He doesn't rate the copper rounds in .22lr though, says they are fine to 50 yards or so and then the accuracy goes to hell. Maybe the firearms manufacturers will change their rifling rates to suit copper bullets ? .223 ? Who knows ? Could be good or a load of rubbish.

cookimonster

For rough shooting I'll move from my usual No6 30/32gr cartridges up to a No4 standard steel shot, that should cover my type of game bird shooting. I think I'll miss just as easily with a No 4 as I do with a No 6 load.

For everything else shotgun wise, the semi will handle the high performance cartridges.

tudderone

cookimonster wrote: »

For rough shooting I'll move from my usual No6 30/32gr cartridges up to a No4 standard steel shot, that should cover my type of game bird shooting. I think I'll miss just as easily with a No 4 as I do with a No 6 load.

For everything else shotgun wise, the semi will handle the high performance cartridges.

What chokes do you have in the shotgun ? I've been told 1/2 is the max or you can get ring bulges at the muzzles with steel.

cookimonster

My o/u is half and full choked, but is nitro proofed and of a quite robust nature.
From what I can glean form the out side World, using standard steel shot cartridges of no bigger then No4 shot in a nitro proofed gun, even with full chokes, shouldn't be an issue.
Possible problems will occur with older guns (not nitroproofed) or extremely light weight (thin walled) barrelled guns.
The rule of thumb of going up two shot sizes when moving over to steal shot will certainly push fixed choked guns such as mine to the limit of usability. Waterfowlers who consistently hunt highbirds with fixed tight chokes may indeed run afoul of the warnings if they wish to use No3 or bigger in steal shot.
I think the shotguning world may take a step backwards in time to when cartridges didn't throw such tight patterns at extended ranges. Developments in various tradtional cartridge components have pushed the useable ranges of guns well beyond that of their recent predecessors. Although steel shot will produce a tighter pattern compared to lead, another reason to use more open chokes, its effective range is shorter then that of a comparative lead cartridge. So until current technology catches up again, we will be shooting at shorter ranges. It will be interesting to see the evolution of the traditional English shoots, as already said will we see the nontraditional guns such as semis show up on the pegs or will the shoots change thier drives to meet the capabilities of the equipment. Given today's steel shot technology eventually the modern double barrel will replace most older guns with the exception of those who can afford the more expensive non toxic ammo.
Even as a dye in the wool pessimist I still hold out hope that further advancements in cartridge development will see a non toxic shot comparable to lead and compatible with older guns.

useurowname

So at what stage is this legislation at in Ireland?
When are we actually likely to actually have to show a ranger the shells in our pockets ?

GooseB

So at what stage is this legislation at in Ireland?
When are we actually likely to actually have to show a ranger the shells in our pockets ?

There's a 6 month consultation period that we're already in, ends in September. Then the proposal gets voted on by our MEP's who will pass it because they are against firearms of any sort and will do as their masters say. Once passed there's an 18 month transition period for larger calibres and 5 years for smaller .22 calibres (of which I'm not sure if that includes .22 calibre centrefire cartridges like .223, etc.)

https://echa.europa.eu/-/consultation-on-the-restriction-proposal-of-lead-in-outdoor-shooting-and-fishing?utm_source=echa-weekly&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=weekly&utm_content=20210331&_cldee=YXNhLnJlZG1vbmRAeWFob28uaWU%3d&recipientid=lead-1a7503642b24eb118125005056b9310e-aac45f4d9a33409aa78053b3e1e089b3&esid=10933d8e-f691-eb11-812a-005056b9310e

https://echa.europa.eu/-/towards-sustainable-outdoor-shooting-and-fishing-echa-proposes-restrictions-on-lead-use

Feisar

Who are MEPs answerable to? Their party?

richiedel123

GooseB wrote: »

There's a 6 month consultation period that we're already in, ends in September. Then the proposal gets voted on by our MEP's who will pass it because they are against firearms of any sort and will do as their masters say. Once passed there's an 18 month transition period for larger calibres and 5 years for smaller .22 calibres (of which I'm not sure if that includes .22 calibre centrefire cartridges like .223, etc.)

https://echa.europa.eu/-/consultation-on-the-restriction-proposal-of-lead-in-outdoor-shooting-and-fishing?utm_source=echa-weekly&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=weekly&utm_content=20210331&_cldee=YXNhLnJlZG1vbmRAeWFob28uaWU%3d&recipientid=lead-1a7503642b24eb118125005056b9310e-aac45f4d9a33409aa78053b3e1e089b3&esid=10933d8e-f691-eb11-812a-005056b9310e

https://echa.europa.eu/-/towards-sustainable-outdoor-shooting-and-fishing-echa-proposes-restrictions-on-lead-use

This is the second one!!!! The first one is passed. Which was the use of lead shot in wetlands and as far as I know it's live now. I think a couple of weeks ago it was enacted. So we have 2 years to comply. Saying that nothing is fully drafted here yet. We have to simply copy and paste what Europe have said or we can do our own interpretation of it.

Mississippi.

Feisar wrote: »

Who are MEPs answerable to? Their party?

Their national party.
IIRC in the last lead ban vote the Fine Gael MEPs voted against most of their European People's Party to vote for the ban

Feisar

Mississippi. wrote: »

Their national party.
IIRC in the last lead ban vote the Fine Gael MEPs voted against most of their European People's Party to vote for the ban

So my local FG man is who I need to start annoying then.

useurowname

So two years to be compliant with the wetlands ban on lead shot. Nothing yet decided for target shooting and I’m guessing what could be classed upland hunting generally.
Assuming we’re out of lockdown by September 2023; if I’m down at my pond after a mallard I won’t have lead in my chambers, if I’m at the clay ground or walking up game on the side of a mountain I will be allowed to use lead. I can live with that. Pick our battles, I can’t argue that firing lead into our rivers and lakes isn’t an outmoded modus operandi.

tudderone

useurowname wrote: »

So two years to be compliant with the wetlands ban on lead shot. Nothing yet decided for target shooting and I’m guessing what could be classed upland hunting generally.
Assuming we’re out of lockdown by September 2023; if I’m down at my pond after a mallard I won’t have lead in my chambers, if I’m at the clay ground or walking up game on the side of a mountain I will be allowed to use lead. I can live with that. Pick our battles, I can’t argue that firing lead into our rivers and lakes isn’t an outmoded modus operandi.

What gave you that idea ? If you are shooting over wetland, you will not be allowed to shoot lead bullets or shot. Since 85% of Ireland is classed as wetlands, that leaves a meagre 15% you would be allowed to shoot lead (for a few years) over. But the eu wants lead gone completely.

Grizzly 45

Feisar wrote: »

Who are MEPs answerable to? Their party?

Technically,as they are representing constituencies in Europe and are elected in elections by us here in the EU elections.But it is about as effective as voting in a new local Communist party boss in Buttfukinskik,Russia to represent you in the Duma in Moscow.Even if they were all in favour of your ideas,and voted with both hands ,it will be overruled by the weight of the majority vote of the big boys in Europe.
Called the tyranny of the majority of Democracy. IE if 4out of 5 people decide to hang you for whatever reason. The "democratic majority" carries the vote...You hang!
Something the founding fathers foresaw in the USA and invented a strange political thing called the Electoral college. So states like Rhode island[IRL] have an equal say and power of vote as California[Germany] or NY[France]... funny this great organisation of "European Democracy" never thought of such a thing... For obvious reasons!:rolleyes:

Grizzly 45

useurowname wrote: »

So at what stage is this legislation at in Ireland?
When are we actually likely to actually have to show a ranger the shells in our pockets ?

You do what most EU hunters have done with this problem for years. Have a belt of steel and your remaining lead shells in your pockets:) Good luck with meeting any of this lot. they can make all the laws they want...Enforcing them is another matter, for that they need wellies on the ground, and they don't have the manpower. And the way they recruit, they won't have it either for a long time.

tudderone

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Technically,as they are representing constituencies in Europe and are elected in elections by us here in the EU elections.But it is about as effective as voting in a new local Communist party boss in Buttfukinskik,Russia to represent you in the Duma in Moscow.Even if they were all in favour of your ideas,and voted with both hands ,it will be overruled by the weight of the majority vote of the big boys in Europe.
Called the tyranny of the majority of Democracy. IE if 4out of 5 people decide to hang you for whatever reason. The "democratic majority" carries the vote...You hang!
Something the founding fathers foresaw in the USA and invented a strange political thing called the Electoral college. So states like Rhode island[IRL] have an equal say and power of vote as California[Germany] or NY[France]... funny this great organisation of "European Democracy" never thought of such a thing... For obvious reasons!:rolleyes:

Is that like the Ballymagash urban district council ?

Zxthinger

When you they successfully ban nuclear weapons and permit bow hunting then I give up shooting lead..

cookimonster

Ultimately the EU is on a train track to banning lead, how they do it or how it impacts on various interest groups is still to be determined.

If we take the eye off the ball then all of Ireland will be classified as wet land and therefore lead ammo for sporting events will be banned.

If they do a partial wetland ban they can introduce exclusion zones around these locations were even the possession of lead ammo is an offense. In theory then any body in Cavan won't be aloud to have lead shot cartridges even if they were for use in claypigeon shooting on a ground in Dublin.

A practical and easier option to control lead ammo is to ban the possession, sale and import of lead cartridges (maybe an exemption of target ammo if there is an exemption for ranges etc). This will eliminate the need for boots on the ground and the face to face enforcement.

Don't be surprised that the interest groups here start to bring in a form of due diligence for compliance to new legislation therefore putting the onus on thier members. State / Semi State bodies banning the use of lead, clubs and societies following suit etc, etc regardless of the progression of the EU/State ban of lead.

Grizzly 45

Quite a technical piece,but an excellent bit of research and investigative work by a gunsmith on the UK lead ban. A lot of useful info there that can be used here and passed onto our orgs.

https://countrysquire.co.uk/2021/04/07/lead-into-darkness/

Feisar

Unfortunately the current and more than likely future "progressive"/public opinion is against us, look at the below for example.

https://birdwatchireland.ie/ireland-votes-to-ban-the-use-of-toxic-lead-ammunition-at-wetlands/

“We call upon all gun owners to seize this opportunity to demonstrate their commitment to wildlife conservation by rapidly implementing this decision and, in addition, voluntarily switching to non-lead alternatives for all ammunition used everywhere, not just at our precious wetland sites”.

useurowname

Anyone been using non lead cartridges, any recommendations ?

Zxthinger

Feisar wrote: »

Unfortunately the current and more than likely future "progressive"/public opinion is against us, look at the below for example.

https://birdwatchireland.ie/ireland-votes-to-ban-the-use-of-toxic-lead-ammunition-at-wetlands/

“We call upon all gun owners to seize this opportunity to demonstrate their commitment to wildlife conservation by rapidly implementing this decision and, in addition, voluntarily switching to non-lead alternatives for all ammunition used everywhere, not just at our precious wetland sites”.

Will we ask them to give up their binoculars.. let them pee away.. perhaps I need to loan them a pair a show them the glut of buzzards that have started to reach problem levels in some places.. They seem to be surviving well and not succumbing to lead poisoning..


I shoot pests.. Maggies and Hooded crows over sheep and cattle farms and foxes where applicable..

I use highly frangible ammunition that reaches the targets across wind swept valleys and hills and shoots fast and flat to negate errors in ranging.
My vermin rifles are configured for such shooting and their is no alternative that provides the same effect.. Where possible I retrieve bullets and I always gather up the dead for discrete disposal.
If you listen to these disconcerted clowns then you soon see invasive species such as magpies being protected :rolleyes:
These are the same crowds that released the mink.. and they want deer to be neutered and not shot.. there also probably good section of them that fall into the "milk is murder" basket too..
maybe I need to redefine "Vermin":)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pW16LGVPfIc

I just going going to go the rock chucker route and roll my own heads.. everything that Greta is waffling about has set the stage that any clown can now waffle his was to an emotive finale and raise the roof with sumptuous awards and frivolous accolades.. I dare say that Walt Disney will cast her as some ethnic minority..
All lies and statistical manipulation.. only recently I read on the Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown county council website (which is of four Dublin area) that sea levels were rising around Ireland faster than anywhere else in the world.. Such nonsense amazes me (regardless of vertical continental drift or post glacial bounce) that a public body can write such rubbish..
:rolleyes:

The bird brigade will soon be seeking diverse urban forestry yet domestic cats continue to decimate the reaming song bird numbers and intensification of farming has removed far to many areas of scrub and km's of hedge-rows yet the they still want shooting to receive a heavy blow from a tin hammer..

back on on point, I think that hunters should be only leave carcasses on offer if they can either remove the bullets or they can be reasonable certain that the bullet has exited an is in the back-stop.

solarwinds

“We call upon all gun owners to seize this opportunity to demonstrate their commitment to wildlife conservation by rapidly implementing this decision and, in addition, voluntarily switching to non-lead alternatives for all ammunition used everywhere, not just at our precious wetland sites”.

Very cleverly worded.

Grizzly 45

If you read the article I posted, there is plenty of information to refute all of birdwatch Irelands claims right off.

badaj0z

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2058137505

Should ownership of cats be banned?
The Biggest Bird Killers
I found the figures below with simple Google searches. They are both from the UK and from publications that support the lead ban in shooting. Look closely. You will soon note that the figures show that cats kill 270 times as many birds than are killed by lead shot. It is time to look at banning cats.

https://www.birdguides.com/news/uk-s...public%20alike.


The decision comes despite the well-known negative impacts of lead poisoning in both humans and wildlife. More than 6,000 tonnes of lead ammunition are fired over the UK countryside every year in areas where birds feed, and are left behind strewn on the ground. Birds often mistake tiny shot pellets for grit or seeds, and ingest them. Up to 100,000 waterbirds in the UK die every year through ingesting poisonous lead shot. Dead and dying birds are usually taken quickly by predators – making their deaths unseen and 'invisible' to shooters and the wider public alike.

https://www.rspb.org.uk/birds-and-wi...0been%20caught.

The most recent figures of how many creatures are killed by cats are from the Mammal Society. They estimate that cats in the UK catch up to 100 million prey items over spring and summer, of which 27 million are birds.
This is the number of prey items which were known to have been caught. We don't know how many more the cats caught, but didn't bring home, or how many escaped but subsequently died.
The most frequently caught birds, according to the Mammal Society, are probably:
• house sparrows
• blue tits
• blackbirds
• starlings

solarwinds

"Dead and dying birds are usually taken quickly by predators – making their deaths unseen and 'invisible' to shooters and the wider public alike".

And yet they manage to count them ?.

tudderone

badaj0z wrote: »

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2058137505

Should ownership of cats be banned?
The Biggest Bird Killers
I found the figures below with simple Google searches. They are both from the UK and from publications that support the lead ban in shooting. Look closely. You will soon note that the figures show that cats kill 270 times as many birds than are killed by lead shot. It is time to look at banning cats.

https://www.birdguides.com/news/uk-s...public%20alike.


The decision comes despite the well-known negative impacts of lead poisoning in both humans and wildlife. More than 6,000 tonnes of lead ammunition are fired over the UK countryside every year in areas where birds feed, and are left behind strewn on the ground. Birds often mistake tiny shot pellets for grit or seeds, and ingest them. Up to 100,000 waterbirds in the UK die every year through ingesting poisonous lead shot. Dead and dying birds are usually taken quickly by predators – making their deaths unseen and 'invisible' to shooters and the wider public alike.

https://www.rspb.org.uk/birds-and-wi...0been%20caught.

The most recent figures of how many creatures are killed by cats are from the Mammal Society. They estimate that cats in the UK catch up to 100 million prey items over spring and summer, of which 27 million are birds.
This is the number of prey items which were known to have been caught. We don't know how many more the cats caught, but didn't bring home, or how many escaped but subsequently died.
The most frequently caught birds, according to the Mammal Society, are probably:
• house sparrows
• blue tits
• blackbirds
• starlings

100%. I spend my own money buying bird seed, suet balls, nyjer seed etc to feed the song birds in the garden, love seeing them. Woman next door rescues every moggie in a 5 mile radius and lets them loose around the place. The cats are always scaling the tree trying to get the birds. Boils my whizz i can tell you :mad:

Feisar

Lads it comes down to the general opinion that we are oddballs with guns and cats are cute.

useurowname

I believe that cats should be licensed and minded and spayed properly as are dogs.
It is sad seeing badly nourished stray cats in towns . It’s not right, not for the animals in particular they’ve hard lives. Time was they were useful for their ability to eradicate rodents in towns and yards but those days are gone with rentokill.