F1 2021 :Round 1 Bahrain

McFly85 · 28-03-2021 6:14pm

skipper_G wrote: »

But that's not what happens. They do not have somebody monitoring every car at every corner for track limits. They do not have sensors in the tarmac to automatically detect them. What actually happens is, the race director forwards suspected infringements to the stewards for investigation. Assuming that was triggered By Red Bull's commenting on it via team radio, Hamilton was then instructed to stop or risk a black and white flag and subsequently a 5 second time penalty.

To be fair, they should be monitoring it. All weekend turn 4 was being singled out for track limits.

I’m not saying Mercedes cheated, I am saying that a system that relies on one team calling it out after multiple laps when every millisecond can count is pretty poor.

Inquitus · 28-03-2021 6:14pm

Gaoth Laidir wrote: »

So gaining a few tenths lap after lap is not gaining an advantage?

Not per the usual race rules, no it's not.

Gaoth Laidir · 28-03-2021 6:14pm

Faugheen wrote: »

I’m not being obtuse. People are only complaining because Max had to give back a position.

Why are you deliberately ignoring that?

Where did anyone complain that he had to give it back?

Faugheen · 28-03-2021 6:15pm

Gaoth Laidir wrote: »

Jesus, it's been in place for years and yet Lewis claimed he didn't know about it.

Max got understeer just as he overtook and that took him off. He immediately gave it back. Why do you have an issue with that? You're completely choosing to ignore the advantage that Lewis accrued early in the race by breaking this limit.

Hamilton didn’t know about what? Overtaking a car while off the track?

I must have missed that. When did that happen?

Gaoth Laidir · 28-03-2021 6:17pm

Faugheen wrote: »

Hamilton didn’t know about what? Overtaking a car while off the track?

I must have missed that. When did that happen?

He didn't know about the track limits. You know exactly what I'm talking about.

Faugheen · 28-03-2021 6:17pm

This is it wrote: »

Show us where someone said you can overtake while off the track.

Sure thing.

quokula wrote: »

Hamilton did it dozens of times and got a meaningless warning. Verstappen did it once and was told to hand certain victory that he’d earned over to Lewis.

Comparing track limits to overtaking while off the track. I’ll accept your hands up and acknowledgement when you’re ready.

lolie · 28-03-2021 6:19pm

FourFourRED wrote: »

He had his chances. Wasn’t able to take it. Maybe next time.

Regardless, what a season we may have in store for us. It would be great to see a competitive race every week.

I dont think much of Hamilton the person and still want Max to beat him this year but you cannot deny what a great driver he is, no other driver would've made those tyres last like that.
This is unfortunately what we didn't get to see between Senna and Schumacher.

Faugheen · 28-03-2021 6:19pm

Gaoth Laidir wrote: »

He didn't know about the track limits. You know exactly what I'm talking about.

The rule I have been saying was in place for years was OVERTAKING while off the track.

You came back and said ‘well Lewis knew about it for years and got away with it.’

Show me where Hamilton overtook a car while off the track please?

mista11 · 28-03-2021 6:20pm

Gaoth Laidir wrote: »

He didn't know about the track limits. You know exactly what I'm talking about.

The rule has changed this year, last year you could go over the white lines on all the corners except what was called out by the stewards before the race

This year they are calling out certain corners but also saying that if you keep going over any of the white lines youll get a warning

The rule about overtaking is a differnet rule which has always been around

quokula · 28-03-2021 6:21pm

Faugheen wrote: »

The rule I have been saying was in place for years was OVERTAKING while off the track.

You came back and said ‘well Lewis knew about it for years and got away with it.’

Show me where Hamilton overtook a car while off the track please?

Can you point to the bit in the regulations that says gaining an advantage is ok but overtaking isn’t?

It’ll take you a while to find it since it doesn’t exist.

Gaoth Laidir · 28-03-2021 6:22pm

Faugheen wrote: »

The rule I have been saying was in place for years was OVERTAKING while off the track.

You came back and said ‘well Lewis knew about it for years and got away with it.’

Show me where Hamilton overtook a car while off the track please?

Go around in circles if you want. I was talking about Lewis on the radio stating he didn't know about the track limits at that turn, after breaking it throughout the race. No way he didn't know about it beforehand. They are all told exactly where the limits are, and others were penalised for it yesterday.

Faugheen · 28-03-2021 6:23pm

quokula wrote: »

Can you point to the bit in the regulations that says gaining an advantage is ok but overtaking isn’t?

It’ll take you a while to find it since it doesn’t exist.

Can you point to me where it says overtaking while off the track is ok because that doesn’t exist.

Funny how you think track limits that was being done by nearly every other car except for RB was cheating yet Max should have been allowed to overtake a car while off the track.

28-03-2021 6:23pm

I completely understand that Max had to give the position back. It was just coincidence it happened at turn 4.

But I would love to know how many times during the race that Hamilton exceeded track limits and what sort of time advantage he gained when they’re all added up.

Faugheen · 28-03-2021 6:24pm

Gaoth Laidir wrote: »

Go around in circles if you want. I was talking about Lewis on the radio stating he didn't know about the track limits at that turn, after breaking it throughout the race. No way he didn't know about it beforehand. They are all told exactly where the limits are, and others were penalised for it yesterday.

Exactly, yesterday.

There was nothing in the notes about today, according to Sky before the race, then the stewards decided to clamp down.

Anything else?

Gaoth Laidir · 28-03-2021 6:24pm

Strawberry Milkshake wrote: »

I completely understand that Max had to give the position back. It was just coincidence it happened at turn 4.

But I would love to know how many times during the race that Hamilton exceeded track limits and what sort of time advantage he gained when they’re all added up.

More than the gap he won the race by, I would reckon.

Gaoth Laidir · 28-03-2021 6:26pm

Faugheen wrote: »

Exactly, yesterday.

There was nothing in the notes about today, according to Sky before the race, then the stewards decided to clamp down.

Anything else?

So why did they warn him of a black and white flag then?

28-03-2021 6:29pm

flazio wrote: »

Norris explained it well on F1 YouTube a moment ago. You can go wide at turn 4 if you don't gain an advantage. In qualifying, lap time is an advantage, in the race the position is the advantage.

So making up hundreds of a second by exceeding limits during race is allowed then?

Did bottas gain an extra point for fastest lap by exceeding them?

This thread is going faster than Verstappen

Faugheen · 28-03-2021 6:29pm

Gaoth Laidir wrote: »

So why did they warn him of a black and white flag then?

Because they clamped down when everyone was overdoing it, which is my guess. Toto alluded to that in his post-race on Sky.

From what I can see, Red Bull were the only ones not doing it.

quokula · 28-03-2021 6:30pm

Faugheen wrote: »

Can you point to me where it says overtaking while off the track is ok because that doesn’t exist.

Funny how you think track limits that was being done by nearly every other car except for RB was cheating yet Max should have been allowed to overtake a car while off the track.

It’s in the 2021 sporting regulations, you can google it and download a pdf.

The bit about track limits is under section 27, and says the following:

Drivers must make every reasonable effort to use the track at all times and may not deliberately leave the track without a justifiable reason.
Drivers will be judged to have left the track if no part of the car remains in contact with it and, for the avoidance of doubt, any white lines defining the track edges are considered to be part of the track but the kerbs are not.
Should a car leave the track the driver may re-join, however, this may only be done when it is safe to do so and without gaining any lasting advantage. At the absolute discretion of the race director a driver may be given the opportunity to give back the whole of any advantage he gained by leaving the track.

At no point does it make a special case of overtaking, it is very specific about gaining an advantage. Mercedes gained a massive advantage by ignoring this rule for half the race. They were not asked to give it back. Verstappen gained an advantage once. He was asked to give it back. It was a blatantly inconsistent application of the rules and it changed the outcome of the race.

Alun · 28-03-2021 6:31pm

lolie wrote: »

Maybe you could try this if you know where to point the dish.
https://touch.boards.ie/thread/2058164131/3/#post116711543

I'd need a motorized dish at least and probably a bigger one too.

28-03-2021 6:31pm

Faugheen wrote: »

Because they clamped down when everyone was overdoing it, which is my guess. Toto alluded to that in his post-race on Sky.

From what I can see, Red Bull were the only ones not doing it.

They should either enforce them from the start or not enforce them at all.

For them to start clamping down 3/4 of the way through the race means some already have gained an advantage.

Alun · 28-03-2021 6:33pm

Harika wrote: »

Really hope F1 gets the rights to broadcast in Ireland via their streaming service soon. Can't wait to get rid of Sky altogether

I can't imagine that happening to be honest. As far as I know the reason F1 streaming isn't available here is precisely because Sky have the rights here. If stinks I know, but that's modern broadcasting for you.

skipper_G · 28-03-2021 6:34pm

quokula wrote: »

Can you point to the bit in the regulations that says gaining an advantage is ok but overtaking isn’t?

It’ll take you a while to find it since it doesn’t exist.

Since people are seemingly making up the rules to suit their argument, here's the reality.

Section 27.3: Drivers must make every reasonable effort to use the track at all times and may not deliberately leave the track without a justifiable reason.

Drivers will be judged to have left the track if no part of the car remains in contact with it and, for the avoidance of doubt, any white lines defining the track edges are considered to be part of the track but the kerbs are not.

Should a car leave the track the driver may re-join, however, this may only be done when it is safe to do so and without gaining any lasting advantage. At the absolute discretion of the race director a driver may be given the opportunity to give back the whole of any advantage he gained by leaving the track.

Faugheen · 28-03-2021 6:35pm

Strawberry Milkshake wrote: »

They should either enforce them from the start or not enforce them at all.

For them to start clamping down 3/4 of the way through the race means some already have gained an advantage.

And Red Bull should pay attention to the race notes because they wouldn’t have seen this.

Ricciardo had a lap time deleted yesterday as well yet McLaren kept pushing on today regardless, so Red Bull can’t use that excuse.

Joeface · 28-03-2021 6:36pm

Well That was good to watch . I mean it pretty much had everything from the word go.
Mercedes Really did get away with murder . I don't know what Bottas did but he cannot get a pit stop and he cannot drive the limit of that Car anymore. hats off to Hamilton , Max . that good to watch . more of the same as we go one

The Entire top 10 was entertaining one way or another ,
Lando Norris drove a supreme race .
Good Recovery from Perez looked real comfortable with the car as the race went on.
Leclerc & Sainz I didn't think the Ferrari had the pace in it but they had a good first day out .
Dani Ric has to be happy with points finish , His race was good but just about good .

My Driver of the day is Tsunoda , Great race for him and Some decent over takes . He seemed to have a Really good battle with stroll for the last few laps I think they swapped places twice with 3 laps to go . Great way start out your time in F1 .

Not a bad drive from Stroll either , I mean he got Alonso Twice and some how kept the Aston in the points cause It doesn't look like a good car this year . Held his place well . Did a really long stint on his tires as well .

I am only going to mention Vettel here poor Race for him but he does get Team mate of the day . His defence against Alonso and Sainz pretty much secured Stroll been able to get clear enough to save a points finish for Aston . That was really good to watch . After that yeah he was gone .

The next race is too Far off .

Hijpo · 28-03-2021 6:37pm

Time to unfollow this now.
See ye in the next one.

donspeekinglesh · 28-03-2021 6:37pm

RunningFlyer wrote: »

As Brundle says, he could have waited until turn 13/14 to let Lewis pass so then he would get DRS on the home straight and retake the position - that sort of thinking comes with experience.

That's a stupid idea and he wouldn't have gotten away with it. That exact thinking cost Hamilton a win at Spa (2008 maybe?)

quokula · 28-03-2021 6:37pm

skipper_G wrote: »

Since people are seemingly making up the rules to suit their argument, here's the reality.

Section 27.3: Drivers must make every reasonable effort to use the track at all times and may not deliberately leave the track without a justifiable reason.

Drivers will be judged to have left the track if no part of the car remains in contact with it and, for the avoidance of doubt, any white lines defining the track edges are considered to be part of the track but the kerbs are not.

Should a car leave the track the driver may re-join, however, this may only be done when it is safe to do so and without gaining any lasting advantage. At the absolute discretion of the race director a driver may be given the opportunity to give back the whole of any advantage he gained by leaving the track.

Not sure why you’re accusing me of making things up, I literally posted that exact article several posts above you and it supports everything I said.

donspeekinglesh · 28-03-2021 6:39pm

skipper_G wrote: »

They do not have somebody monitoring every car at every corner for track limits. They do not have sensors in the tarmac to automatically detect them.

No reason they couldn't. It's done for national level racing in the UK at the Jonathan Palmer owned tracks.

Faugheen · 28-03-2021 6:39pm

quokula wrote: »

It’s in the 2021 sporting regulations, you can google it and download a pdf.

The bit about track limits is under section 27, and says the following:

At no point does it make a special case of overtaking, it is very specific about gaining an advantage. Mercedes gained a massive advantage by ignoring this rule for half the race. They were not asked to give it back. Verstappen gained an advantage once. He was asked to give it back. It was a blatantly inconsistent application of the rules and it changed the outcome of the race.

‘Without justifiable reason’
‘Without gaining a lasting advantage’.

What do you suppose overtaking while off the track does?

This is it · 28-03-2021 6:39pm

Faugheen wrote: »

Sure thing.

Comparing track limits to overtaking while off the track. I’ll accept your hands up and acknowledgement when you’re ready.

Sure, when you show me what was asked for.

quokula · 28-03-2021 6:43pm

Faugheen wrote: »

‘Without justifiable reason’
‘Without gaining a lasting advantage’.

What do you suppose overtaking while off the track does?

What do you suppose ignoring the regulation for most of the race in order to gain advantageous track position does? Why are you wilfully ignoring the lack of consistency in the application of this rule?

Nobody is saying that in isolation the rule shouldn’t have been applied to Verstappen. Only that Verstappen never would have been in that position in the first place if Mercedes hadn’t been allowed to violate the rule much more egregiously and get away with it. And if the precedent with Mercedes was established that the rule doesn’t really apply, or just gives you a warning, then that precedent should have been applied to Verstappen.

People only want a fair race where everyone has to abide by the rules. And we didn’t get that. Mercedes were allowed to steal it.

Faugheen · 28-03-2021 6:46pm

quokula wrote: »

What do you suppose ignoring the regulation for most of the race in order to gain advantageous track position does? Why are you wilfully ignoring the lack of consistency in the application of this rule?

Nobody is saying that in isolation the rule shouldn’t have been applied to Verstappen. Only that Verstappen never would have been in that position in the first place if Mercedes hadn’t been allowed to violate the rule much more egregiously and get away with it. And if the precedent with Mercedes was established that the rule doesn’t really apply, or just gives you a warning, then that precedent should have been applied to Verstappen.

People only want a fair race where everyone has to abide by the rules. And we didn’t get that. Mercedes were allowed to steal it.

Again. Mercedes were not allowed to ‘steal’ everything.

Every single team except Red Bull were doing this ‘at the discretion of the race director’. Then they decided to tell Max to start doing it.

Max then went off the track while overtaking therefore ‘gaining a lasting advantage’.

It really is that simple.

quokula · 28-03-2021 6:51pm

Faugheen wrote: »

Again. Mercedes were not allowed to ‘steal’ everything.

Every single team except Red Bull were doing this ‘at the discretion of the race director’. Then they decided to tell Max to start doing it.

Max then went off the track while overtaking therefore ‘gaining a lasting advantage’.

It really is that simple.

At least we’ve got to the crux of the logic you’re using. We’re agreed that the rules don’t say anything to differentiate the two scenarios and you were just making that up earlier, and in fact the only difference the rules allow for is the word “discretion”, which seems to roughly translate to “ok for Mercedes, not on for Red Bull”

Faugheen · 28-03-2021 6:58pm

quokula wrote: »

At least we’ve got to the crux of the logic you’re using. We’re agreed that the rules don’t say anything to differentiate the two scenarios and you were just making that up earlier, and in fact the only difference the rules allow for is the word “discretion”, which seems to roughly translate to “ok for Mercedes, not on for Red Bull”

I’m making things up?

You literally have been saying that Mercedes have been allowed to steal a race when quite simply Red Bull weren’t at the races.

You whinge about Hamilton exceeding track limits when there was nothing in the notes about turn 4 for the race. Lando Norris backed that up.

Red Bull started doing it, then the stewards decided to clamp down on it and gave Hamilton a warning.

Max then overtook a car while off the track ‘gaining a lasting advantage’ ie. he gained a position. That wasn’t just a simple track limits violation.

I’m done here. You clearly don’t get it and you think Max should be allowed to gain a lasting advantage.

pjohnson · 28-03-2021 6:59pm

How can someone not realise repeatedly cutting a corner lap after lap gives a lasting benefit to a driver lol.

quokula · 28-03-2021 7:02pm

Faugheen wrote: »

I’m making things up?

You literally have been saying that Mercedes have been allowed to steal a race when quite simply Red Bull weren’t at the races.

You whinge about Hamilton exceeding track limits when there was nothing in the notes about turn 4 for the race. Lando Norris backed that up.

Red Bull started doing it, then the stewards decided to clamp down on it and gave Hamilton a warning.

Max then overtook a car while off the track ‘gaining a lasting advantage’ ie. he gained a position. That wasn’t just a simple track limits violation.

I’m done here. You clearly don’t get it and you think Max should be allowed to gain a lasting advantage.

The actual rules have beten quoted multiple times. They don’t mention the word overtake. That’s entirely in your imagination. Mercedes gained a lasting advantage by ignoring the rule for most of the race. You’ve acknowledged that the only justification for not penalising them is the word “discretion” in the rules. That word shouldn’t be there, it’s a get out of jail free card for dreadful and inconsistent decision making, which ultimately decided the race result.

MadYaker · 28-03-2021 7:02pm

Yuki says the last time he saw Fernando Alonso was at Fuji Speedway when he was like 7 or 8 years old :pac:

pjohnson · 28-03-2021 7:03pm

Also I fcuking love Crofty commentating on Mazepin.

"Mazespin"

"Suffered potential crashing problems"

He's had an almost Ide-esque start to his F1 career. I knew he'd be bad but christ he just cant keep the thing pointing forward.

jammiedodgers · 28-03-2021 7:06pm

https://twitter.com/JaitkenRacer/status/1376191924873355264

28-03-2021 7:11pm

I'm not a fan of Lewis and am a massive fan of Max. I'm very disappointed that Max didn't win.

However, I think Max was right to give the position back. If his move (even though unintentional) was permitted then everyone would start passing like that. Where would it end? It would no longer be F1.

Yes, there was a lack of consistency with how the track limit rules were being applied, but Max's move would have been a bridge too far.

I was less than impressed the Lewis was permitted to exceed the track limits on turn 4 (as were a few others). He definitely gained a small advantage from this lap after lap, which adds up. He was warned for this far too late. In my opinion Lewis should be penalised for this, but obviously wasn't. Maybe a grid penalty should be applied on the next race?

The reality is Mercedes applied superior tactics, had some luck and Hamilton drove well.

The good news is it appears that we will have a far more exciting season as the playing field has been levelled to a large extent. I think that this will show that Lewis doesn't shine so much when the car advantage is reduced.

flazio · 28-03-2021 7:16pm

Why just Lewis though? Why not catch all the drivers doing it?

Keyzer · 28-03-2021 7:17pm

Cracking first round to the championship. Was rooting for Max but have to hand it to Hamilton for surviving on those tires.

Hopefully these two are going round for round all season.

28-03-2021 7:19pm

flazio wrote: »

Why just Lewis though?

I don't think Lewis was the only one let away with it. Others gained advantage on turn 4 by exceeding the track limits during the race without being penalised. It's not right but it happened

weisses · 28-03-2021 7:33pm

Faugheen wrote: »

How much of an advantage did Max get for doing the same thing before the overtake?

How much of an advantage did Max get when they were side-by-side?

Hamilton got a track-limits warning. Did you know that?

After doing it for about 30 laps and gaining an advantage every lap

This turn four issue was discussed between Stewarts and the teams prior to the race ..... Hamilton ignored that and got away with it.

All_in_Flynn · 28-03-2021 7:37pm

Hopefully we get a season of races like that.

Hamilton is some machine. I can't help but feel if it was the other way around, he would have got the job done. Max is an insanely quick driver but I think Lewis is the more versatile driver.

Max will learn from today though. I think he'll be more patient if a similar situation arises again.

Best race I've seen in a long time. F1 needs these two fighting it out.

Faugheen · 28-03-2021 7:39pm

weisses wrote: »

After doing it for about 30 laps and gaining an advantage every lap

This turn four issue was discussed between Stewarts and the teams prior to the race ..... Hamilton ignored that and got away with it.

Why did everybody bar Red Bull do it then?

ctrl-alt-delete · 28-03-2021 7:42pm

Faugheen wrote: »

Why did everybody bar Red Bull do it then?

Everyone didn't do it, Mazepin didn't make it to there :pac:

weisses · 28-03-2021 7:44pm

Faugheen wrote: »

Why did everybody bar Red Bull do it then?

Drivers were told they had to obey the sporting regulations, which include keeping all four wheels on the track.

I cannot make it any simpler for you

Dont be at yourself · 28-03-2021 7:52pm

Great race, bodes well for the rest of the season. Hopefully the problems with the Honda PU aren’t a regular occurrence.

Hats off to Hamilton, I don’t begrudge him the win because he obviously earned it. I wonder if it would have been different had Checo started in the top 4?

Great racing right down the field too — Leclerc, the McLarens getting racey with each other, and the Sainz - Alonso - Vettel scrap were all terrific watching.

F1 2021 :Round 1 Bahrain

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