What exactly is happening with AstraZeneca?

robinph · 26-03-2021 02:54PM

Wolf359f wrote: »

Was there not a chart in the report, where after the 4 weeks, the efficacy in Pfizer started to drop, while AZ's continues to increase?
If it was dropping after 4 weeks, it's hardly going to suddenly increase.
Now if they had the same study after 8/12 weeks to see, that would confirm it.

Don't think I saw that, but seems odd if they are only supposed to start having any effect after 3 weeks anyway. Sound a bit too soon for any effectiveness of the vaccine to be dropping away.

murphaph · 26-03-2021 03:02PM

greyday wrote: »

Merkel wanted Van lynden to be relevant and concocted this plan to have the commission order the vaccines rather than the Countries which had taken it upon themselves to order on behalf of the EU, The German health minister was basically forced to issue an appeal to Van Lynden asking for help in finalising the contract even though all the nitty gritty had been done, Miss Relevance then took over to great fanfare only for the contracts to take another 3 months to sign with no clause stating the EU was to be supplied first as the UK had inserted in their contracts...blame Boris though, Van Lynden is a goddess that can do no wrong.

Was van Lynden not the lad that scored against us in Euro 88?

Seriously, this is all false. The smaller nations of the EU approached the commission and asked it could it organise something along the lines of what the Germans et al were doing. The commission asked those countries would they be prepared to open it up to the rest of the EU (remember there is no precedent for the EU doing this so there was no natural assumption that any of this would be done at EU level) and they agreed.

It wasn't top down. It was bottom up.

robinph · 26-03-2021 03:09PM

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

Obviously English comprehension is not your strong point

“ Published: 4 Mar 2021“

Obviously English comprehension is not your strong point:

Information request and response under the Freedom of Information (Scotland) Act 2002.
Date received: 21 Jan 2021

26-03-2021 03:11PM

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

Obviously English comprehension is not your strong point

“ Published: 4 Mar 2021“

My English Comprehension is fine thanks. I linked to the FOI request because if you bother to look, all you need is there.

FOI reference: FOI/202100141289
Date received: 21 Jan 2021
Date responded: 18 Feb 2021

Including a link to this letter by the CMO of Scotland

Wolf359f · 26-03-2021 03:12PM

robinph wrote: »

Don't think I saw that, but seems odd if they are only supposed to start having any effect after 3 weeks anyway. Sound a bit too soon for any effectiveness of the vaccine to be dropping away.

It wasn't actually a chart on efficacy, it was a chart on odd's ratio.
Just interesting Pfizer odds increase after 5 weeks.
I guess they would have updated figures based on weeks 6+ to tighten those confidence intervals.

robinph · 26-03-2021 03:13PM

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

Uk are not just vaccinating with AZ

Where did I claim they were?

Just pointing out that the delay in between Pfizer doses and the giving Astra Zeneca to over 65's whilst both outside of exactly what had been trialled were not completely crazy ideas and were based on donkeys years of previous experience of how vaccines behave... and being in the middle of a global pandemic where you're far better off doing something rather than looking at a fridge full of unused vaccines and praying that things get better somehow.

murphaph · 26-03-2021 03:17PM

Extending the AZ jab out to 12 weeks is now widely accepted. It's the recommended window in Germany and Ireland. Probably elsewhere too. But the other vaccines are mRNA based and these are new tech. I don't know if one can infer a longer spacing gives a better response. I really have no idea but I know that Pfizer advised against deviating so far from the trial parameters.

The bigger risk I see with a 3 month gap is that an awful lot of people will just say "ah feck it I haven't caught Corona yet so must be grand".

Strazdas · 26-03-2021 03:28PM

murphaph wrote: »

Was van Lynden not the lad that scored against us in Euro 88?

Seriously, this is all false. The smaller nations of the EU approached the commission and asked it could it organise something along the lines of what the Germans et al were doing. The commission asked those countries would they be prepared to open it up to the rest of the EU (remember there is no precedent for the EU doing this so there was no natural assumption that any of this would be done at EU level) and they agreed.

It wasn't top down. It was bottom up.

Tony Connelly has pointed out the the decision to go with a "group buy" was actually very popular across the union at the time when it was announced. It was only when the sluggish rollout started in January that we began to hear dissenting voices.

murphaph · 26-03-2021 03:44PM

Strazdas wrote: »

Tony Connelly has pointed out the the decision to go with a "group buy" was actually very popular across the union at the time when it was announced. It was only when the sluggish rollout started in January that we began to hear dissenting voices.

So I live in Germany where billions have been put into Biontech and CureVac by the Bund (directly, not EU) and there are some complaints but it's nowhere near as hyped up as the Brit media would have you believe. Germany could have gone it alone with its two home grown vaccines and it could probably have vaccinated the entire country by now but that would not have been the right thing to do. The people here aren't digesting the Brit media's tub-thumping garbage the way they would be at home. It just doesn't reach them.

We are a European Union. That has to mean something and if countries go off on solo runs during these critical events, then the rest of the union can legitimately ask if they are committed to the union or not. I don't care about solo runs by the Dictator or the Maltese as they weren't buying anything we had ordered.

It's a price we pay for solidarity. The EU isn't a sovereign state. The Commission has no budget to just order whatever it wants at whatever price and then tell the member states afterwards how much they owe. Having said that, we need a plan for the next period or next pandemic (they are becoming more frequent). The EU needs something like FEMA with an agreed budget and some rapid decision making processes. I would hope work on this has already begun.

Let the Brits away. There will be further mutations and they might have an attitude adjustment yet when they realise they really need an mRNA vaccine. AZ shows little use against the SA variant for example.

I'd say VdL is mostly guilty of naivety, assuming the world wasn't going to be as greedy as it was.

Bit cynical · 26-03-2021 04:35PM

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

2. Eu was impacted dozes from Eu plants went to uk but not vice versa, if both customers were treated equally there wouldn’t have been any issues, just look at other manufacturers no one is saying anything about them as they fulfill their contract

But that is a dispute between the EU and AZ. The UK can't be blamed for simply taking delivery of what they ordered.

26-03-2021 04:36PM

murphaph wrote: »

Let the Brits away. There will be further mutations and they might have an attitude adjustment yet when they realise they really need an mRNA vaccine. AZ shows little use against the SA variant for example.

Have you not read any of this thread?

Strazdas · 26-03-2021 04:44PM

Bit cynical wrote: »

But that is a dispute between the EU and AZ. The UK can't be blamed for simply taking delivery of what they ordered.

Has the UK been blamed for anything really? Their toxic press and readership has weighed into the debate with gusto (and a lot of vitriol) but I'm not sure I've heard much in the way of criticism of the British government. All of the criticism has been of the private pharma company AstraZeneca.

26-03-2021 04:51PM

Strazdas wrote: »

Has the UK been blamed for anything really? Their toxic press and readership has weighed into the debate with gusto (and a lot of vitriol) but I'm not sure I've heard much in the way of criticism of the British government. All of the criticism has been of the private pharma company AstraZeneca.

I presume you mean other than on here?

it seems the French are accusing the UK o "Blackmail" https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-56540149

Danzy · 26-03-2021 05:13PM

murphaph wrote: »

So I live in Germany where billions have been put into Biontech and CureVac by the Bund (directly, not EU) and there are some complaints but it's nowhere near as hyped up as the Brit media would have you believe. Germany could have gone it alone with its two home grown vaccines and it could probably have vaccinated the entire country by now but that would not have been the right thing to do. The people here aren't digesting the Brit media's tub-thumping garbage the way they would be at home. It just doesn't reach them.

We are a European Union. That has to mean something and if countries go off on solo runs during these critical events, then the rest of the union can legitimately ask if they are committed to the union or not. I don't care about solo runs by the Dictator or the Maltese as they weren't buying anything we had ordered.

It's a price we pay for solidarity. The EU isn't a sovereign state. The Commission has no budget to just order whatever it wants at whatever price and then tell the member states afterwards how much they owe. Having said that, we need a plan for the next period or next pandemic (they are becoming more frequent). The EU needs something like FEMA with an agreed budget and some rapid decision making processes. I would hope work on this has already begun.

Let the Brits away. There will be further mutations and they might have an attitude adjustment yet when they realise they really need an mRNA vaccine. AZ shows little use against the SA variant for example.

I'd say VdL is mostly guilty of naivety, assuming the world wasn't going to be as greedy as it was.

Quite a shocking post.

BonnieSituation · 26-03-2021 05:13PM

Danzy wrote: »

Quite a shocking post.

How is that shocking?

Bit cynical · 26-03-2021 05:29PM

Strazdas wrote: »

Has the UK been blamed for anything really? Their toxic press and readership has weighed into the debate with gusto (and a lot of vitriol) but I'm not sure I've heard much in the way of criticism of the British government. All of the criticism has been of the private pharma company AstraZeneca.

Well it seemed to be in the specific posts I was responding to. But yes, I can see why we, the EU, might have a dispute with the company AZ.

Strazdas · 26-03-2021 06:14PM

Aegir wrote: »

I presume you mean other than on here?

it seems the French are accusing the UK o "Blackmail" https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-56540149

Again, that sounds like France having a go at the UK over vaccines, nothing to do with the EU or the European Commission.

Pete_Cavan · 26-03-2021 07:32PM

Bit cynical wrote: »

But that is a dispute between the EU and AZ. The UK can't be blamed for simply taking delivery of what they ordered.

Well there seems to be something going on between AZ and the UK. The UK got 5m doses from India, where doses were to be made for low and middle income countries. They would have taken another 5m only India has now banned exports. The UK was only over in India doing inspections in February so this certainly seems to be more than simply taking delivery of what they ordered.

If AZ are willing to redirect millions of doses which were to be for poorer countries to the UK at short notice with no indication of another super-duper first dibs on everything clause, its not hard to imagine them doing the same to the EU. The fact that India introduced an export ban due to lack of vaccines shows what they think of AZs performance under their contract and doses produced there going to a wealthy European nation.

26-03-2021 07:39PM

Strazdas wrote: »

Again, that sounds like France having a go at the UK over vaccines, nothing to do with the EU or the European Commission.

https://www.politico.eu/article/von-der-leyen-has-no-knowledge-of-u-k-vaccine-exports/

26-03-2021 07:41PM

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Well there seems to be something going on between AZ and the UK. The UK got 5m doses from India, where doses were to be made for low and middle income countries. They would have taken another 5m only India has now banned exports. The UK was only over in India doing inspections in February so this certainly seems to be more than simply taking delivery of what they ordered.

If AZ are willing to redirect millions of doses which were to be for poorer countries to the UK at short notice with no indication of another super-duper first dibs on everything clause, its not hard to imagine them doing the same to the EU. The fact that India introduced an export ban due to lack of vaccines shows what they think of AZs performance under their contract and doses produced there going to a wealthy European nation.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-india-eu-exclusive-idUSKCN2AT1J0

Strazdas · 26-03-2021 07:57PM

Aegir wrote: »

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-india-eu-exclusive-idUSKCN2AT1J0

Her comments on the UK seem perfectly reasonable (actually quite diplomatic in the face of media provocation.....Macron has picked up on the hate fest coming from the British press).

murphaph · 26-03-2021 08:16PM

The allegations being made in this article (being attributed to der Spiegel) are damning if true.

https://www.n-tv.de/panorama/Produzierte-Astrazeneca-Werk-an-EU-vorbei-article22453539.html

It alleges that the Halix plant has been manufacturing millions of doses since December but AZ only formally applied for certification for the plant on Wednesday. The EMA certified it today already.

The allegation is that the lion's share of these doses were sent to the UK, leaving the EU contract unfulfilled.

If it turns out to be true there will be ructions over it. It would be the clearest indication yet that AZ treats the UK government completely differently to the EU.

Pete_Cavan · 26-03-2021 08:22PM

Aegir wrote: »

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-india-eu-exclusive-idUSKCN2AT1J0

Yes, AZ has put forward production from elsewhere so that it can get close to the same universe as their contractual supply. The EU is currently planning on the basis of receiving 70m of the 180m doses it should get from AZ in Q2. They are unlikely to get any doses from SII, not least because the Indians won't let it out of the country. The situation with the UK isvery different. The 5m doses which the UK already got seems to have happened at very short notice, with doses being sent while inspections were happening.

odyssey06 · 26-03-2021 08:26PM

murphaph wrote: »

The allegation is that the lion's share of these doses were sent to the UK, leaving the EU contract unfulfilled.
If it turns out to be true there will be ructions over it. It would be the clearest indication yet that AZ treats the UK government completely differently to the EU.

It would be an indication they treat the UK contract differently to the EU contract ... which any company would do looking at the penalties attached to each one for failure to deliver.

Wolf359f · 26-03-2021 08:30PM

murphaph wrote: »

The allegations being made in this article (being attributed to der Spiegel) are damning if true.

https://www.n-tv.de/panorama/Produzierte-Astrazeneca-Werk-an-EU-vorbei-article22453539.html

It alleges that the Halix plant has been manufacturing millions of doses since December but AZ only formally applied for certification for the plant on Wednesday. The EMA certified it today already.

The allegation is that the lion's share of these doses were sent to the UK, leaving the EU contract unfulfilled.

If it turns out to be true there will be ructions over it. It would be the clearest indication yet that AZ treats the UK government completely differently to the EU.

Haven't the EU already said of the 21mil doses exported from the EU to the UK, only 1mil were AZ?
It's hard to know in December, as it would have been only from Jan were because of brexit, there would have needed to be customs forms filled in and then from Feb on, there was the export licences required.
The fact the UK doesn't make public their stock or deliveries of vaccine doesn't help the speculation.

murphaph · 26-03-2021 08:31PM

odyssey06 wrote: »

It would be an indication they treat the UK contract differently to the EU contract ... which any company would do looking at the penalties attached to each one for failure to deliver.

They should never have signed the contract they did with the EU. It states that there's nothing materially preventing them from making a best effort to supply us. AZ is a shady little operation it really is.

I feel sorry for Oxford University that they got landed with these shysters by the Tories.

Wolf359f · 26-03-2021 08:34PM

murphaph wrote: »

They should never have signed the contract they did with the EU. It states that there's nothing materially preventing them from making a best effort to supply us. AZ is a shady little operation it really is.

I feel sorry for Oxford University that they got landed with these shysters by the Tories.

The vaccine that was the world's way out of this pandemic, left in the hands of amateurs!
What could possibly go wrong?

murphaph · 26-03-2021 08:34PM

Wolf359f wrote: »

Haven't the EU already said of the 21mil doses exported from the EU to the UK, only 1mil were AZ?
It's hard to know in December, as it would have been only from Jan were because of brexit, there would have needed to be customs forms filled in and then from Feb on, there was the export licences required.
The fact the UK doesn't make public their stock or deliveries of vaccine doesn't help the speculation.

Who knows. There is no effort at transparency from either AZ or the UK government.

odyssey06 · 26-03-2021 08:38PM

murphaph wrote: »

They should never have signed the contract they did with the EU. It states that there's nothing materially preventing them from making a best effort to supply us. AZ is a shady little operation it really is.
I feel sorry for Oxford University that they got landed with these shysters by the Tories.

Who should they have gone with?
Sanofi who failed to deliver their own vaccine despite being one of the top 3 vaccine companies pre covid?
A US company who could have fallen foul of export bans?

Edit: I agree they shouldn't have signed the contract

odyssey06 · 26-03-2021 08:39PM

Wolf359f wrote: »

The vaccine that was the world's way out of this pandemic, left in the hands of amateurs!
What could possibly go wrong?

Should have been left to the pros like GSM or Sanofi... oh wait.

What exactly is happening with AstraZeneca?

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