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United Ireland Poll - please vote

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  • The question will be how we do it not if. After a pro-UI vote in the north NI ceases to exist and the transition to the unitary state will begin.




  • The question will be how we do it not if. After a pro-UI vote in the north NI ceases to exist and the transition to the unitary state will begin.

    This question should be fully answered prior to any vote north or south.




  • The question will be how we do it not if. After a pro-UI vote in the north NI ceases to exist and the transition to the unitary state will begin.

    Surely that's only dependent on a pro-UI vote in the Republic as well? They can't just decide that they're joining unilaterally.




  • VinLieger wrote: »
    This question should be fully answered prior to any vote north or south.

    That would be ideal but I suspect it will be hard to get Unionists on board with detailed planning before NI gets voted out of existence for good.

    What we can do is assure Unionists that they will be valued members of our new state. Maybe we'll be able to get the educated young unionists that study in Britain and never come back to stay and help us build a new country.




  • What are you on about?

    Whinging about the past in ROI won't close the budget gap in a united Ireland...


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  • VinLieger wrote: »
    I have no family up there and I don't see how as a 35 year old I'm held account for abandoning anyone?
    As far as I'm concerned it's not my problem.

    That's cool that if it doesn't affect you directly you've no interest.




  • Zaph wrote: »
    Surely that's only dependent on a pro-UI vote in the Republic as well? They can't just decide that they're joining unilaterally.

    So a no-to-UI vote happens in the south. There will be a very serious political schism and the state's very legitimacy is called into question. The flag would no longer be appropriate, as would the anthem, the constitution would be defunct and so on.

    What then?




  • Whinging about the past in ROI won't close the budget gap in a united Ireland...

    Stop whinging so?
    You do know Ulster is still partially under British rule? Not sure what you mean by 'the past'.




  • That's cool that if it doesn't affect you directly you've no interest.

    But a UI does affect me directly and I very mu h have an interest, I don't want me or my children to pay the cost of reunification, I don't want to share a country with troglodytes like the DUP and their friends along with all the very real security issues it will bring upon us.

    What really infuriates me is people like you saying we are responsible or somehow owe them when nobody alive has ever had a choice in the matter.




  • So a no-to-UI vote happens in the south. There will be a very serious political schism and the state's very legitimacy is called into question. The flag would no longer be appropriate, as would the anthem, the constitution would be defunct and so on.

    What then?

    Not sure why you think that the legitimacy of the state would be called into question or the constitution would be defunct. If articles 2 and 3 remained unchanged you might have a point, but given that a UI is now only as aspiration rather than there being an outright claim to NI, I don't see any particular issues with either.


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  • VinLieger wrote: »
    But a UI does affect me directly and I very mu h have an interest, I don't want me or my children to pay the cost of reunification, I don't want to share a country with troglodytes like the DUP and their friends along with all the very real security issues it will bring upon us.

    What really infuriates me is people like you saying we are responsible or somehow owe them when nobody alive has ever had a choice in the matter.

    I feel a responsibility and I will vote for a UI. My vote is as valid as yours.
    Your selfishness does not infuriate me, it makes me sad actually. Where would you be had others not made sacrifices.




  • Stop whinging so?
    You do know Ulster is still partially under British rule? Not sure what you mean by 'the past'.

    It's a majorly British population under British rule, what's the problem?

    Any Irish person living there is an Irish citizen.




  • Zaph wrote: »
    Not sure why you think that the legitimacy of the state would be called into question or the constitution would be defunct.

    Pro-UI people will claim the state as no longer fit for purpose. Not a hope in hell the flag, anthem, symbols, and whatnot will be retained by those seeking to prevent a United Ireland. It would be considered a betrayal of everyone who ever has fought for Ireland's self-determination.
    If articles 2 and 3 remained unchanged you might have a point, but given that a UI is now only as aspiration rather than there being an outright claim to NI, I don't see any particular issues with either.

    You think no-to-UI people would get agreement on a new constitution that removes the aspiration and abandons northern pro-UI people to their fate again? Not a hope in hell.

    Say the moment a pro-UI vote passes in the north a United Ireland is declared by those who support it. What then? Do you understand the potential terrible schism a rejection of a United Ireland could unleash?




  • Pro-UI people will claim the state as no longer fit for purpose. Not a hope in hell the flag, anthem, symbols, and whatnot will be retained by those seeking to prevent a United Ireland. It would be considered a betrayal of everyone who ever has fought for Ireland's self-determination.

    The trappings associated with a country such as flags, anthems, etc., don't actually constitute the country itself. I think you're over-estimating the significance that those voting against a UI would apportion to them. Personally I've no problem with them remaining, even though I'd vote no, and I dare say most people would feel the same.

    You think no-to-UI people would get agreement on a new constitution that removes the aspiration and abandons northern pro-UI people to their fate again? Not a hope in hell.

    Who said anything about a new constitution? Having an aspiration in the constitution doesn't mean that it has to be acted upon. You're just plucking spurious arguments out of thin air now.

    Say the moment a pro-UI vote passes in the north a United Ireland is declared by those who support it. What then? Do you understand the potential terrible schism a rejection of a United Ireland could unleash?

    So basically you're saying that if NI voted yes and the Republic voted no there'd be a revolution in the Republic to overthrow the government and install a new pro-UI regime? Because short of that you can declare whatever you like but it doesn't make it fact.




  • Zaph wrote: »
    So basically you're saying that if NI voted yes and the Republic voted no there'd be a revolution in the Republic to overthrow the government and install a new pro-UI regime? Because short of that you can declare whatever you like but it doesn't make it fact.

    No I don't see any violence (against who for what?) but I do envision us back to square one with division of Ireland being the primary political issue until it isn't. One thing is for sure, a no-to-UI vote would have political consequences.

    I don't think a no-to-UI vote will happen for what its worth as those who would advocate it will be aligning themselves with the DUP/Unionists in the north, and I'd imagine the political disruption a no vote could engender will be well flagged before any vote.




  • That's cool that if it doesn't affect you directly you've no interest.

    I don't think it's right to dismiss peoples opinions because they don't see themselves as involved in the Norths history.

    It's easy to say people are being dismissive because the North doesn't affect them and they don't want a UI. But a UI would affect everyone's lives, and surely we all are entitled to a view on that. You have to take into account that the majority of people under 30 don't know anything but a post GFA agreement Ireland, so any change to that will effect them hugely and you can't blame people for having an opinion on that.




  • WhatYaSay wrote: »
    I don't think it's right to dismiss peoples opinions because they don't see themselves as involved in the Norths history.

    It's easy to say people are being dismissive because the North doesn't affect them and they don't want a UI. But a UI would affect everyone's lives, and surely we all are entitled to a view on that. You have to take into account that the majority of people under 30 don't know anything but a post GFA agreement Ireland, so any change to that will effect them hugely and you can't blame people for having an opinion on that.

    If the north doesn't affect them...what are they doing arguing about it on a NI thread?

    The 'North' affects us all whether we like it or not, frankly.




  • If the north doesn't affect them...what are they doing arguing about it on a NI thread?

    The 'North' affects us all whether we like it or not, frankly.

    Yes you're right, but this is a thread about a potential United Ireland in which we'll all live.

    Say you're a 27 year old somewhere in Galway, unless your family were fairly politically involved then up until now Northern Ireland and it's history/politics didn't play much of a part in your day to day life. The prospect of a united Ireland which you haven't asked for will change that fact to some extent, how much remains to be seen. There will be a large demographic out there who will wonder why invite such upheaval.




  • WhatYaSay wrote: »
    Yes you're right, but this is a thread about a potential United Ireland in which we'll all live.

    Say you're a 27 year old somewhere in Galway, unless your family were fairly politically involved then up until now Northern Ireland and it's history/politics didn't play much of a part in your day to day life. The prospect of a united Ireland which you haven't asked for will change that fact to some extent, how much remains to be seen. There will be a large demographic out there who will wonder why invite such upheaval.

    Then Northern Ireland does affect you.

    Your government and the people of this country signed up to an internationally binding agreement.

    That is likely to come to pass. If you object to it, it is up to you to find the political representation and the majority to change that agreement.

    Otherwise it's clauses and terms will be upheld. If a majority vote for a UI it will happen. So again, Northern Ireland does affect you whether you like it or not.




  • Then Northern Ireland does affect you.

    Your government and the people of this country signed up to an internationally binding agreement.

    That is likely to come to pass. If you object to it, it is up to you to find the political representation and the majority to change that agreement.

    Otherwise it's clauses and terms will be upheld. If a majority vote for a UI it will happen. So again, Northern Ireland does affect you whether you like it or not.

    Yes, If a majority vote for UI, that's the part that remains to be seen.

    All I'm saying is people who have no interest in a change to the status quo are as entitled to their vote and argument as anyone else, and I really don't think that is reflected in the discussion.


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  • WhatYaSay wrote: »
    Yes, If a majority vote for UI, that's the part that remains to be seen.

    All I'm saying is people who have no interest in a change to the status quo are as entitled to their vote and argument as anyone else, and I really don't think that is reflected in the discussion.

    They aren't entitled to say NI doesn't affect them or that they have no responsibility. They do.




  • WhatYaSay wrote: »
    Yes, If a majority vote for UI, that's the part that remains to be seen.

    All I'm saying is people who have no interest in a change to the status quo are as entitled to their vote and argument as anyone else, and I really don't think that is reflected in the discussion.

    If?
    When....




  • JimmyVik wrote: »
    I dont believe there is any way in hell this is happening where we dont end up paying more taxes.
    Maybe there will be some money from Europe or the Uk for 10 years or so to fool us into thinking its zero sum, so we only notice after 10 years.
    Maybe there will be stealth taxes that can cover it.
    I know a lot of people up the North. The lack of NHS really scares them if there was a united Ireland. That will hit them in the pockets.
    Maybe the NHS will still cover them for a few years after the move. God help them after that though smile.png They wont know what hit them when they go to the Doctor or hospital.


    you are assuming the NHS will still exist in years to come.


    VinLieger wrote: »
    We? Im 35 i dont remember having any responsibility in the mess that NI currently is.


    you don't need to have or have had any responsibility for NI'S issues for his point to be the case.


    The whole NI - ROI hookup benefitting is economically is nonsense when you look at it really. Business wise there have been no barriers to trade or investment between NI and ROI or incentives available in ROI that weren't in NI - and they have fallen miles behind (particularly in the past 30 years).

    Why when you change the flag and the currency does NI suddenly become an economic powerhouse?


    There's a reason the costs are quite specific and the benefits kind of vague....

    If the subvention were half of what is reported you're looking at a 10% tax increase across the board in ROI (58% marginal income tax rate on everything over 35k anyone?).

    That's just to keep the lights on as they are now before you increase welfare and civil salaries to ROI levels.


    there has been a massive barrier in the form of british rule, which has prevented foreign investment and job creation in NI.
    with NI part of ireland the issues that made NI unstable in the form of the invisible border are no more so there is a willingness to invest.
    realistically your numbers in terms of tax rises and all else are speculatory with no basis apart from throwing out deliberately high numbers.




  • VinLieger wrote: »
    But a UI does affect me directly and I very mu h have an interest, I don't want me or my children to pay the cost of reunification, I don't want to share a country with troglodytes like the DUP and their friends along with all the very real security issues it will bring upon us.

    What really infuriates me is people like you saying we are responsible or somehow owe them when nobody alive has ever had a choice in the matter.

    Our opinions differ.
    I think everyone has a democratic right to a say, be it DUP or FG folk. Maybe if Catholics/nationalists were treated equally it wouldn't be much of a deal.
    Did you sign off on the bank bailouts? I wasn't asked myself. I think a UI is worth the cost. Where we'll have another crash no doubt and more too big to fail bailout scenarios.




  • blanch152 wrote: »
    There is a third choice - an independent Northern Ireland within the Commonwealth.

    Northern Ireland is bigger both population-wise and economically than Cyprus, Latvia, Malta and Estonia, all full members of the EU. Luxembourg is smaller by population, but is wealthier. An independent Northern Ireland, member of both the EU and the Commonwealth, would have access automatically to regional EU funding that would not be available in a united Ireland context.

    the common wealth is a dead duck, so if they could even be part of it while being part of the EU it would only ever be for symbolic reasons.
    the EU is the big trading block, and the important block they need to be a member of.
    an independant NI is not going to happen, it's reunification or reunification, as in there is only 1 choice given britain is now faultering and heading for break up.
    VinLieger wrote: »
    But a UI does affect me directly and I very mu h have an interest, I don't want me or my children to pay the cost of reunification, I don't want to share a country with troglodytes like the DUP and their friends along with all the very real security issues it will bring upon us.

    What really infuriates me is people like you saying we are responsible or somehow owe them when nobody alive has ever had a choice in the matter.


    you may not want it but it's going to happen whether you want it or not, so it will be better for you and for everyone to work out how it is going to happen, because happen it is going to, it's a question of when and not if.
    as i already suggested, a no vote in the south is not going to stop security issues if there are going to be any, in fact it is that situation that is likely to bring security issues and quite big ones, rather then a yes or no vote across both territories.
    which is why voting no in the aim of stopping potential security issues is a bad strategy.




  • Then Northern Ireland does affect you.

    Your government and the people of this country signed up to an internationally binding agreement.

    That is likely to come to pass. If you object to it, it is up to you to find the political representation and the majority to change that agreement.

    Otherwise it's clauses and terms will be upheld. If a majority vote for a UI it will happen. So again, Northern Ireland does affect you whether you like it or not.

    Yes, we all signed up to an international agreement where we dropped our territorial claim on the North as a sign of maturity that if the North never wants to join us, that's fine.




  • VinLieger wrote: »
    But a UI does affect me directly and I very mu h have an interest, I don't want me or my children to pay the cost of reunification, I don't want to share a country with troglodytes like the DUP and their friends along with all the very real security issues it will bring upon us.

    What really infuriates me is people like you saying we are responsible or somehow owe them when nobody alive has ever had a choice in the matter.

    Spot on, this is an emerging attitude in the South that matches the emergence of the Northern Irish identity up North. After 100 years, that is not surprising.

    Sure, there are some who cling on to romantic pasts and with the surge in toxic nationalist ideologies around the world, they will have got a boost, but a united Ireland, while a fine dream and hope, is not something that people really want.




  • blanch152 wrote: »
    Spot on, this is an emerging attitude in the South that matches the emergence of the Northern Irish identity up North. After 100 years, that is not surprising.

    Sure, there are some who cling on to romantic pasts and with the surge in toxic nationalist ideologies around the world, they will have got a boost, but a united Ireland, while a fine dream and hope, is not something that people really want.

    You need to find somebody to represent that view in the coming campaign. All party leaders are in favour of unification. Finding it hard to think of an TD who is against it. None in my border constituency.

    Then you will have to ally with those in NI who are against it. Good luck with that.




  • 87 vs 449 ?


    another election win for the richest part in the land ? lol


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  • You need to find somebody to represent that view in the coming campaign. All party leaders are in favour of unification. Finding it hard to think of an TD who is against it. None in my border constituency.

    Then you will have to ally with those in NI who are against it. Good luck with that.



    No TD is against a united Ireland, no Irish person is against it either, just they have different preconditions. Mine are much much higher than yours, that is all.


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