United Ireland Poll - please vote

end of the road · 25-03-2021 1:31am

Zaph wrote: »

That's 10bn, per year, you do realise that, yeah? Explain to me how that will be very affordable, because I'm at a complete loss to understand where it's going to come from. If the government had that sort of money currently available to them do you not think we'd somehow know about it by now?

yes, i do know it's 10000000000 a year, and i'm deliberately being high with that figure as i think it will actually be a lot less.
both belfast and derry have a lot going for them, belfast especially and reunification will in the long term lead to a very stable country as a whole meaning belfast and derry would be attractive for foreign investment in the form of jobs and all sorts which would get the costs down even further.
we will be fine, there will be a lot to work out but we will work it out and get through the issues, reunification is ultimately going to happen eventually so it's in everyone's interest to begin the process now, even if it takes a long time before it actually does happen.

Junkyard Tom · 25-03-2021 1:31am

Belfast seriously under-performs economically compared to Dublin, there is no good reason for this save for UK jurisdiction. I've little doubt that with a synchronised all-Ireland economy Belfast would easily catch up and become a net beneficiary to the Irish exchequer and greater Ulster region.

Jinglejangle69 · 25-03-2021 1:34am

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Belfast seriously under-performs economically compared to Dublin, there is no good reason for this save for UK jurisdiction. I've little doubt that with a synchronised all-Ireland economy Belfast would easily catch up and become a net beneficiary to the Irish exchequer and greater Ulster region.

Through what means?

Zaph · 25-03-2021 1:39am

end of the road wrote: »

yes, i do know it's 10000000000 a year, and i'm deliberately being high with that figure as i think it will actually be a lot less.
both belfast and derry have a lot going for them, belfast especially and reunification will in the long term lead to a very stable country as a whole meaning belfast and derry would be attractive for foreign investment in the form of jobs and all sorts which would get the costs down even further.
we will be fine, there will be a lot to work out but we will work it out and get through the issues, reunification is ultimately going to happen eventually so it's in everyone's interest to begin the process now, even if it takes a long time before it actually does happen.

And in the meantime we're shelling out up to 10bn a year until they get their sh*t together, which isn't going to happen overnight? So again I ask, where is this money coming from? It won't magically appear out of thin air just because the country reunites.

Junkyard Tom · 25-03-2021 1:42am

Jinglejangle69 wrote: »

Through what means?

Lowered corporation tax, the IDA working to send business that direction, good rail and road links between Dublin and Belfast, they should really be sister cities.

Rodin · 25-03-2021 1:44am

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Lowered corporation tax, the IDA working to send business that direction, good rail and road links between Dublin and Belfast, they should really be sister cities.

Would be a new east coast economic powerhouse. Very educated population in the north. Might split some jobs from Dublin and therefore drive down costs.

Samsonsmasher · 25-03-2021 1:49am

We simply would be incapable of policing Northern Ireland.
During the Troubles the British had tens of thousands of troops patrolling the streets for decades while the police were armed. There were significant numbers of undercover special forces troops and intelligence agents running spy networks on the ground.
We do not have that capability nor are we prepared to fight a counterinsurgency against both loyalists and republicans.
Loyalists would obviously want the Irish Republic out of Northern Ireland and would be very effective if they used the same tactics they used during the Troubles - target random innocent Catholics.
The republicans do not recognise the Dublin government and with the British out of the picture would be emboldened.
Southerners would have no stomach to send young men and women north to be killed so obviously northern Catholics would make up the majority of Gardai and Defence Forces in Ulster just as Protestants once were the majority of the RUC and UDR.
The character of the Gardaí and Defence Forces would be openly sectarian with collusion with republicans and sectarian murders of Protestants.
It would be a new Troubles with roles reversed with Catholics oppressing Protestants except this time Britain would have no part except perhaps covertly.

Larbre34 · 25-03-2021 1:50am

Belfast underperforms compared with Dublin because it is three decades behind Dublin in terms of economic development and diversification.

Some of that may be down to UK policies, but its mostly because of the troubles and sectarianism in commerce.

Rodin · 25-03-2021 1:54am

Samsonsmasher wrote: »

We simply would be incapable of policing Northern Ireland.
During the Troubles the British had tens of thousands of troops patrolling the streets for decades while the police were armed. There were significant numbers of undercover special forces troops and intelligence agents running spy networks on the ground.
We do not have that capability nor are we prepared to fight a counterinsurgency against both loyalists and republicans.
Loyalists would obviously want the Irish Republic out of Northern Ireland and would be very effective if they used the same tactics they used during the Troubles - target random innocent Catholics.
The republicans do not recognise the Dublin government and with the British out of the picture would be emboldened.
Southerners would have no stomach to send young men and women north to be killed so obviously northern Catholics would make the Gardai and Defence Forces just as Protestants once were the majority of the RUC and UDR.
The character of the Gardaí and Defence Forces would be openly sectarian with collusion with republicans and sectarian murders of Protestants.
It would be a new Troubles with roles reversed with Catholics oppressing Protestants except this time Britain would have no part.

This isn't Iraq.

jm08 · 25-03-2021 1:54am

Zaph wrote: »

And in the meantime we're shelling out up to 10bn a year until they get their sh*t together, which isn't going to happen overnight? So again I ask, where is this money coming from? It won't magically appear out of thin air just because the country reunites.

And in that case, when it doesn't happen overnight, the UK will still be paying the subvention and the IDA can get on the job.

It would suit the Pharma companies here already to be able to put plants in NI as they will have a good supply of labour and then they will have all the advantages of dealing with one Gov, a couple of universities/labour supply.All the advantages that the ROI has at the moment.

Samsonsmasher · 25-03-2021 2:03am

Rodin wrote: »

This isn't Iraq.

No it's Ireland and there has been conflict here since the 12th century.

Zaph · 25-03-2021 2:09am

jm08 wrote: »

And in that case, when it doesn't happen overnight, the UK will still be paying the subvention

And why exactly, outside of their commitments to pensions, would they want to do that if it's no longer part of the UK? Seriously, when it comes to the economic side of things there's nothing more than wishful thinking and pie in the sky blanket statements on this thread. Even being optimistic and saying that somehow NI could stand on its own two feet, economically speaking, within a decade of reunification, that's still an awful lot of money that the Irish government will have to find to keep them going in the meantime. We simply don't have that money, if we did don't you think we'd have a shiny new metro system in Dublin, or high quality rail connections throughout the country, etc.?

purplepanda · 25-03-2021 2:38am

A proper Federal Union of Ireland, more devolved power to the provinces & regions / GDA. With membership of NATO combined with a proper Defence budget similar to other European nations have & a referendum regarding membership of the Commonwealth.

I don't think the British government will agree to an All Ireland state without their defence, strategic & geopolitical concerns being addressed. Any United Ireland would be more closer aligned in it's relations to Great Britain.

A eventual United Ireland would be under serious pressure to more closely align itself to the EU, United States & Great Britain / Rest of UK. That would be expected for the overseas investment & planning which eventually contributes to bringing about a new Irish political settlement.

Any extension of the current centralised government jurisdiction to include N.I. would be a disaster, the project needs a complete re-design to be viable.

Germany got the support of their Allies, neighboring nations & the international community to bring about a United Germany, a United Ireland will also require the same process.

maestroamado · 25-03-2021 5:12am

Zaph wrote: »

And why exactly, outside of their commitments to pensions, would they want to do that if it's no longer part of the UK? Seriously, when it comes to the economic side of things there's nothing more than wishful thinking and pie in the sky blanket statements on this thread. Even being optimistic and saying that somehow NI could stand on its own two feet, economically speaking, within a decade of reunification, that's still an awful lot of money that the Irish government will have to find to keep them going in the meantime. We simply don't have that money, if we did don't you think we'd have a shiny new metro system in Dublin, or high quality rail connections throughout the country, etc.?[/QUOTE

The reason we do not have what you mention is our public service bill way too high.

MOH · 25-03-2021 5:41am

Rodin wrote: »

This isn't Iraq.

No. This was long before Iraq.

maestroamado · 25-03-2021 8:16am

Samsonsmasher wrote: »

We simply would be incapable of policing Northern Ireland.
During the Troubles the British had tens of thousands of troops patrolling the streets for decades while the police were armed. There were significant numbers of undercover special forces troops and intelligence agents running spy networks on the ground.
We do not have that capability nor are we prepared to fight a counterinsurgency against both loyalists and republicans.
Loyalists would obviously want the Irish Republic out of Northern Ireland and would be very effective if they used the same tactics they used during the Troubles - target random innocent Catholics.
The republicans do not recognise the Dublin government and with the British out of the picture would be emboldened.
Southerners would have no stomach to send young men and women north to be killed so obviously northern Catholics would make up the majority of Gardai and Defence Forces in Ulster just as Protestants once were the majority of the RUC and UDR.
The character of the Gardaí and Defence Forces would be openly sectarian with collusion with republicans and sectarian murders of Protestants.
It would be a new Troubles with roles reversed with Catholics oppressing Protestants except this time Britain would have no part except perhaps covertly.

The Gardai would sort it out, sure commissioner has experienced there...

JimmyVik · 25-03-2021 8:33am

Fred Cryton wrote: »

Peacefully. But not successfully. The East German states are still economically on life support dependent on outside investment and public sector jobs. Very like Northern Ireland actually.

And it cost West German taxpayers about €2 trillion euro, with a 5% "solidarity tax" on every pay cheque. How do people feel about paying an additional 5% or 10% of their wages in tax for the North?

It wouldnt be a solidarity tax here.
It would be disguised as an environmental tax of 10% of your salary

And only middle income payers would be paying it.

BanditLuke · 25-03-2021 8:38am

It's happening sooner rather than later. Time for the Unionists to jog on.

Fann Linn · 25-03-2021 8:42am

FF TD now looking for new Junior Minister position to be appointed for Border Poll/ Reunification portfolio. Always late to the party in fairness but at least it's being discussed.

For Forks Sake · 25-03-2021 8:54am

maestroamado wrote: »

The Gardai would sort it out, sure commissioner has experienced there...

I'd say Drew Harris will be long since retired before such a situation arises.

FrancieBrady · 25-03-2021 9:05am

Fann Linn wrote: »

FF TD now looking for new Junior Minister position to be appointed for Border Poll/ Reunification portfolio. Always late to the party in fairness but at least it's being discussed.

You can almost physically hear them clamouring to get on to the bandwagon. Driven by the fear of SF capitalising on leading the way to a UI.

FF will fully return to their republican roots if O'Callaghan gets the leadership. He has a very well thought out rationale for a UI and doesn't have issues with a FF/SF coalition.
More cynically, I think O'Callaghan and the wing of the party he has the support of, see it as a way of re-invigorating FF. They certainly don't want to be on the wrong side of history on it.

JimmyVik · 25-03-2021 9:08am

A lot of people here saying Ireland can afford it.
Tell me how much is going to come out of my pocket and i'll decide whether I can afford it myself.

maestroamado · 25-03-2021 9:30am

FrancieBrady wrote: »

You can almost physically hear them clamouring to get on to the bandwagon. Driven by the fear of SF capitalising on leading the way to a UI.

FF will fully return to their republican roots if O'Callaghan gets the leadership. He has a very well thought out rationale for a UI and doesn't have issues with a FF/SF coalition.
More cynically, I think O'Callaghan and the wing of the party he has the support of, see it as a way of re-invigorating FF. They certainly don't want to be on the wrong side of history on it.

For me there is no republican party in this country at the moment simply because when it was an impossibility they were all saying the wanted it.
Now when it is a real possibility they are dancing around the topic....

VinLieger · 25-03-2021 9:42am

JimmyVik wrote: »

A lot of people here saying Ireland can afford it.
Tell me how much is going to come out of my pocket and i'll decide whether I can afford it myself.

When asked simply if you are in favour of a UI polls in ROI for a UI show 60%+ in favour but unsurprisingly when asked if it increased taxes it drops to only 30% with 48% against.

People claiming it would pass in a landslide are living in a dreamland

mehico · 25-03-2021 9:46am

JimmyVik wrote: »

A lot of people here saying Ireland can afford it.
Tell me how much is going to come out of my pocket and i'll decide whether I can afford it myself.

Maybe it will lead to an increase in the amount of money in your pocket?

FrancieBrady · 25-03-2021 9:51am

VinLieger wrote: »

When asked simply if you are in favour of a UI polls in ROI for a UI show 60%+ in favour but unsurprisingly when asked if it increased taxes it drops to only 30% with 48% against.

People claiming it would pass in a landslide are living in a dreamland

People who think a proposal for a UI will be couched in terms of 'paying more tax' are also living in dreamland.

Very few will answer positively if asked do they want to pay MORE tax.
However, if they are asked if they are willing to make an investment for their own benefit and more importantly, for their children, then they will answer differently.

We built the state we have on that willingness to look to the future, to see infrastructure spend as an investment etc.

JimmyVik · 25-03-2021 9:53am

mehico wrote: »

Maybe it will lead to an increase in the amount of money in your pocket?

Maybe it will.
Then i will consider that too if it does.
Do you think it will?

JimmyVik · 25-03-2021 9:54am

FrancieBrady wrote: »

People who think a proposal for a UI will be couched in terms of 'paying more tax' are also living in dreamland.

Very few will answer positively if asked do they want to pay MORE tax.
However, if they are asked if they are willing to make an investment for their own benefit and more importantly, for their children, then they will answer differently.

We built the state we have on that willingness to look to the future, to see infrastructure spend as an investment etc.

The problem with Nationalists is that they are like Unionists.

They think that there are only two realities.

mehico · 25-03-2021 9:57am

JimmyVik wrote: »

Maybe it will.
Then i will consider that too if it does.
Do you think it will?

I don't know if it will or not but I do think there should also be a conversation about the potential oportunities and benefits of a single island economy in the event of a UI.

JimmyVik · 25-03-2021 10:00am

mehico wrote: »

I don't know if it will or not but I do think there should also be a conversation about the potential oportunities and benefits of a single island economy in the event of a UI.

Im sure both sides of the conversation will be heard alright.

JimmyVik · 25-03-2021 10:42am

Should be a poll here that says
"How much more will you personally accept in extra taxes/stealth taxes in order to have a united Ireland"

Zaph · 25-03-2021 10:47am

JimmyVik wrote: »

Should be a poll here that says
"How much more will you personally accept in extra taxes/stealth taxes in order to have a united Ireland"

That's easy, zero.

suicide_circus · 25-03-2021 10:48am

I think ireland should be divided into smaller waring fiefdoms and clans and use the ogham alphabet, you know, like the good old days.

Samsonsmasher · 25-03-2021 11:09am

The reality is that prior to lockdown hundreds of thousands of Mammy's boys and Daddy's little girls were living at home with their parents. The fact that many of these wastes of space were well into their 20s and 30s should be shameful and embarrassing. Instead this has been encouraged by government covid propaganda and handy PUP money.

The country's economy is destroyed - as a society and a country we are in deep deep deep trouble.

The military and security situation is waved aside by the walter mitty bedroom republicans - barstool republicans don't exist anymore thanks to nphet - who don't run or do push ups let alone know one end of a gun from another.

Defence Forces morale is below the basement and they are bleeding personel. They can only field a battalion at a time for UN operations. Our naval service have had to mothball ships because they can't crew them. Our Gardaí are dysfunctional and most importantly UNARMED.

Loyalist paramilitaries were always low tech. They created mayhem with riots and blocking streets with burning vehicles but most importantly by murdering innocent Catholics.

For every IRA spectacular - a bomb attack on the London financial district or an assassination of a politician or an attack that inflicted casualties on British troops the loyalists responded by killing a batch of innocent Catholics.

It worked. It demoralized the Catholic community.

For decades the Troubles left the south untouched. There were devastating bombings in 1974 but they were forgotten. A few Gardaí were shot but they are forgotten too.

Germany unified in 1990 with 100% of the people in support. Irish unification will lead to renewed sectarian conflict and it will pour over into the south who are unprepared for what's coming.

end of the road · 25-03-2021 12:04pm

Zaph wrote: »

And why exactly, outside of their commitments to pensions, would they want to do that if it's no longer part of the UK? Seriously, when it comes to the economic side of things there's nothing more than wishful thinking and pie in the sky blanket statements on this thread. Even being optimistic and saying that somehow NI could stand on its own two feet, economically speaking, within a decade of reunification, that's still an awful lot of money that the Irish government will have to find to keep them going in the meantime. We simply don't have that money, if we did don't you think we'd have a shiny new metro system in Dublin, or high quality rail connections throughout the country, etc.?

the reason dublin doesn't have a metro, and there aren't more rail services around the country, is not due to lack of money but due to political will and the continued 1960s belief that big multi-billion road projects are the sollution to everything transport related.

hots · 25-03-2021 12:10pm

end of the road wrote: »

the reason dublin doesn't have a metro, and there aren't more rail services around the country, is not due to lack of money but due to political will and the continued 1960s belief that big multi-billion road projects are the sollution to everything transport related.

Now that is something we can all agree on

stoneill · 25-03-2021 12:15pm

The Question of Scotland's independence will need to brought into the equation.
If Scotland gains independence and this is a more likely scenario than Ireland's re-unification, then who are the Loyalists loyal to?
Britian will no longer exist, It'll be just England and Wales tagging along.
Will they be loyal to the Crown only?
The Firm is fracturing and is not going to last much longer, maybe one more reign if that.
So whatever way it pans out the notion, the idea, the intangible concept that Loyalists are loyal to will change and disappear.

drdidlittle · 25-03-2021 2:00pm

For all those wanting a UI. What is your red line in terms of items you will give up to secure a UI?
Join Commenwealth?
Change national anthem?
Red Post boxes?
Chanfe flag etc....

Mantis Toboggan · 25-03-2021 2:02pm

We owe it to the men of 1916 and all who lost their lives in the troubles to create a united Ireland if the opportunity arises.

VinLieger · 25-03-2021 2:12pm

Mantis Toboggan wrote: »

We owe it to the men of 1916 and all who lost their lives in the troubles to create a united Ireland if the opportunity arises.

All who lost their lives in the troubles? Does that include those who died but also actively murdered innocent people? Also what about the unionsists who died? I don't think they'd be happy with someone pushing for a UI in their name....

Generalizations don't do well when discussing a UI

end of the road · 25-03-2021 2:15pm

drdidlittle wrote: »

For all those wanting a UI. What is your red line in terms of items you will give up to secure a UI?
Join Commenwealth?
Change national anthem?
Red Post boxes?
Chanfe flag etc....

you are getting carried away here.
there isn't going to be red post boxes, a neutral color is most likely if we are changing the color.
as for rejoining the common wealth, it's not going to happen as it's a dead duck and we already trade with the couple of nations out of it that aren't basket cases, so there would be no incentive or reason to join it especially given the unionist community's wish to keep their british identity and citizenship will have to be upheld as part of a UI.
not sure the flag will need to be changed as it is inclusive.
the national anthem may change but realistically is there any point? we are never going to have god save the queen as our anthem so it would probably be change for the sake of it.

maccored · 25-03-2021 2:17pm

wicklowstevo wrote: »

well remember regardless of how the poll ends the shinners will claim to have won anyway :pac::pac::pac:

a poll on boards :rolleyes: - yeah sure the shinners would be terrified of that

Fann Linn · 25-03-2021 2:18pm

drdidlittle wrote: »

For all those wanting a UI. What is your red line in terms of items you will give up to secure a UI?
Join Commenwealth?
Change national anthem?
Red Post boxes?
Chanfe flag etc....

50.01% will do for me.
Either way will do as far as I'm concerned.

Mantis Toboggan · 25-03-2021 2:19pm

VinLieger wrote: »

All who lost their lives in the troubles? Does that include those who died but also actively murdered innocent people? Also what about the unionsists who died? I don't think they'd be happy with someone pushing for a UI in their name....

Generalizations don't do well when discussing a UI

They all fought for a cause, for our country, my respect for them is huge I can only wish to have been involved and I include both sides of the civil war.

FrancieBrady · 25-03-2021 2:35pm

drdidlittle wrote: »

For all those wanting a UI. What is your red line in terms of items you will give up to secure a UI?
Join Commenwealth?
Change national anthem?
Red Post boxes?
Chanfe flag etc....

I can't think of any. I would have no issue with flags or anthems at all, (what's a post box? haven't used one in years) the one nearest me is green and has the crown of Victoria on it still. Never cost me a thought and I would fight to preserve it for it's heritage value, same as all the remnants of our British heritage around)

I would be vehemently against re-joining the Commonwealth as it's head is a monarch and I am against the concept of monarchies anywhere and because it could conflict with our EU membership if it was to be turned into a rival trade bloc as Boris once talked about. But if a majority wanted to do it...I would go with the majority.

jimmycrackcorm · 25-03-2021 2:54pm

mehico wrote: »

Maybe it will lead to an increase in the amount of money in your pocket?

Given it currently requires a £10bn UK subvention, then that's unlikely. Currently, Dublin based tax revenue is subsidizing the other regions, so NI wlll just add an extra burden.

FrancieBrady wrote: »

People who think a proposal for a UI will be couched in terms of 'paying more tax' are also living in dreamland.

Very few will answer positively if asked do they want to pay MORE tax.
However, if they are asked if they are willing to make an investment for their own benefit and more importantly, for their children, then they will answer differently.

We built the state we have on that willingness to look to the future, to see infrastructure spend as an investment etc.

That "investment" only returns a lot of angry unionists. I don't think anyone is interested in paying more tax for that. There are zero investment returns in favour of southern taxpayers.

maccored · 25-03-2021 3:33pm

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

Given it currently requires a £10bn UK subvention, then that's unlikely. Currently, Dublin based tax revenue is subsidizing the other regions, so NI wlll just add an extra burden.

That "investment" only returns a lot of angry unionists. I don't think anyone is interested in paying more tax for that. There are zero investment returns in favour of southern taxpayers.

youre miles ahead of the posse obviously as you have the financials and everything all worked out before its even been discussed

FrancieBrady · 25-03-2021 3:34pm

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

Given it currently requires a £10bn UK subvention, then that's unlikely. Currently, Dublin based tax revenue is subsidizing the other regions, so NI wlll just add an extra burden.

That "investment" only returns a lot of angry unionists. I don't think anyone is interested in paying more tax for that. There are zero investment returns in favour of southern taxpayers.

The vast majority of Unionists are moderate decent hardworking people. They are also extremely pragmatic people as evidenced by their getting on with things after the GFA which was a difficult pill to swallow for many of them as well as republicans.

The moderate Unionists I know would be assets to any country.

JimmyVik · 25-03-2021 3:38pm

I dont believe there is any way in hell this is happening where we dont end up paying more taxes.
Maybe there will be some money from Europe or the Uk for 10 years or so to fool us into thinking its zero sum, so we only notice after 10 years.
Maybe there will be stealth taxes that can cover it.
I know a lot of people up the North. The lack of NHS really scares them if there was a united Ireland. That will hit them in the pockets.
Maybe the NHS will still cover them for a few years after the move. God help them after that though

They wont know what hit them when they go to the Doctor or hospital.

James Brown · 25-03-2021 3:58pm

drdidlittle wrote: »

For all those wanting a UI. What is your red line in terms of items you will give up to secure a UI?
Join Commenwealth?
Change national anthem?
Red Post boxes?
Chanfe flag etc....

Joining the commonwealth would be contrary to a UI IMO.
Cool with the anthem, flag whatever being changed. Feel the flag should be changed in the event.

I think people need to realise this is not about 'da brits' or hating on them. It no doubt is for some but it's wrong to apply that to everyone seeking a UI.

United Ireland Poll - please vote

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