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Dublin - Metrolink (Swords to Charlemont only)

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    #1652
    tom1ie
    Registered Users Posts: 10,164 ✭✭✭✭tom1ie


    Do we know when the next stage of metro development happens? Ie is the next stage a railway order or what’s happening?


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    #1653
    MJohnston
    Registered Users Posts: 10,550 ✭✭✭✭MJohnston


    tom1ie wrote: »
    Do we know when the next stage of metro development happens? Ie is the next stage a railway order or what’s happening?

    From the December 2020 update on Metrolink.ie:
    TII continues to develop the MetroLink scheme in preparation for the Railway Order application which it anticipates will be made in June 2021.

    ...

    An update in relation to the expected selection of a provider of client services to TII is now expected to follow in January 2021, including the anticipated timing for the PIN and OJEU notice.

    ...

    The preliminary market consultation on the main contract packages including in relation to the PPP option has now been re-scheduled for Q1 2021.

    Dunno whether the client services provider update happened, can't be bothered scrolling back in the thread!


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    #1654
    tom1ie
    Registered Users Posts: 10,164 ✭✭✭✭tom1ie


    MJohnston wrote: »
    From the December 2020 update on Metrolink.ie:



    Dunno whether the client services provider update happened, can't be bothered scrolling back in the thread!

    Maybe going off track here (pardon the pun) but why do TII need client services? Surely they are the client so they just employ the PSDP and PSCS?


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    #1655
    Pete_Cavan
    Registered Users Posts: 6,768 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    tom1ie wrote: »
    Maybe going off track here (pardon the pun) but why do TII need client services? Surely they are the client so they just employ the PSDP and PSCS?

    Presumably there are multiple client services to be provided, as listed here; https://www.metrolink.ie/#/news

    PSDP and PSCS aren't listed there but are almost always done by the lead designer and contractor respectively. They should have a PSDP already but no PSCS until a construction contract is awarded. Seeing as there will be multiple construction contracts, there would be a PSCS for each one.


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    #1656
    ted1
    Registered Users Posts: 23,366 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    So what’s the current status of this project ?
    When can we expect them to break ground?


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    #1657
    tom1ie
    Registered Users Posts: 10,164 ✭✭✭✭tom1ie


    Pete_Cavan wrote: »
    Presumably there are multiple client services to be provided, as listed here; https://www.metrolink.ie/#/news

    PSDP and PSCS aren't listed there but are almost always done by the lead designer and contractor respectively. They should have a PSDP already but no PSCS until a construction contract is awarded. Seeing as there will be multiple construction contracts, there would be a PSCS for each one.

    Agreed but these are all appointed by the client. Why does the client (TII) need someone to act as client?
    Why can’t TII fulfill that role?

    Not that it matters too much but I’m just interested.


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    #1658
    Pete_Cavan
    Registered Users Posts: 6,768 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    tom1ie wrote: »
    Agreed but these are all appointed by the client. Why does the client (TII) need someone to act as client?
    Why can’t TII fulfill that role?

    Not that it matters too much but I’m just interested.

    Without knowing exactly what the client services are it is hard to comment. Metrolink will involve three large civil works contracts, a Linewide Systems contract and a PPP for everything related to rolling stock plus then dealing with all the various stakeholders and the general public. There will be a lot of administration involved and TII have a limited enough staff who will also be spread across other projects (roads network, Luas extensions, some cycle route projects, etc.).


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    #1659
    jumpinsheep
    Registered Users Posts: 40 ✭jumpinsheep


    In the news section, related to December 2020 update, there is mentioned
    " Preparation of the Preliminary Business Case is also well advanced in accordance with the summary timetable issued with the October update. "

    Can't find any detail anywhere about such timetable and neither about that October update in their website.
    I've already asked in a previous post, but has anyone any info about the above?


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    #1660
    strassenwo!f
    Registered Users Posts: 1,512 ✭✭✭strassenwo!f


    Sam Russell wrote: »
    Mod: Dart Underground is off topic for this thread. There are other threads to discuss it in.

    Mod : Do not discuss Mod instructions on thread. Use the PM instead.

    Any further discussion will result in sanctions. There are plenty of other threads to discuss Dart Underground.


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    #1661
    CatInABox
    Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 10,268 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatInABox


    The updated business case was submitted to the department of transport recently, according to the Sunday Business Post.

    Paywalled, but it's here.


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    #1662
    marno21
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,361 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    From the above article:

    * Business case submitted to DTTAS; to go to Cabinet for approval before year end.
    * ABP submission after this which could take a year
    “This is mainly due to our desire to develop the preliminary design to a greater level of detail, to enable a detailed cost forecast for the scheme to be established, in accordance with best international practice,” the spokesman said.

    “This had the knock-on effect of delaying the preliminary business case approval process.”

    The spokesman declined to give an estimated completion date for the metro line and said an estimate of how much it would cost would be published once the preliminary business case is approved by the government.

    In a recent submission to the mid-term review of the National Development Plan, Ibec, the business representative group, called for the delivery of Metrolink to be accelerated.


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    #1663
    cgcsb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,297 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    So almost a whole year for bc approval then another year for planning approval then tendering. That's optimistically a late 2023 construction start


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    #1664
    Pete_Cavan
    Registered Users Posts: 6,768 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    cgcsb wrote: »
    So almost a whole year for bc approval then another year for planning approval then tendering. That's optimistically a late 2023 construction start

    I assume they can submit the RO to ABP before the BC goes to Cabinet? Maybe they just need Department approval to submit the RO?


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    #1665
    yascaoimhin
    Registered Users Posts: 143 ✭✭yascaoimhin


    marno21 wrote: »
    From the above article:

    * Business case submitted to DTTAS; to go to Cabinet for approval before year end.
    * ABP submission after this which could take a year

    That's more than likely an error. Metrolink will be submitted to ABP in June/July, they told Dublin Commutter Coalition that via DM not a week ago.


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    #1666
    yascaoimhin
    Registered Users Posts: 143 ✭✭yascaoimhin


    cgcsb wrote: »
    So almost a whole year for bc approval then another year for planning approval then tendering. That's optimistically a late 2023 construction start

    Metrolink have already said they intended to begin the tendering process before the scheme is fully approved by ABP


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    #1667
    roadmaster
    Registered Users Posts: 3,648 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    Is it not a bit late in the day for a business case considering all the work that has being done? What would happen at this stage if the business case was rejected?


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    #1668
    Pete_Cavan
    Registered Users Posts: 6,768 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    roadmaster wrote: »
    Is it not a bit late in the day for a business case considering all the work that has being done? What would happen at this stage if the business case was rejected?

    The Business Case is an ongoing process and it gets reviewed and updated at various stages of the project. There are "gates" where it needs to get approval to progress to the next stage.


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    #1669
    Peregrine
    Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 26,399 Mod ✭✭✭✭Peregrine


    roadmaster wrote: »
    Is it not a bit late in the day for a business case considering all the work that has being done? What would happen at this stage if the business case was rejected?

    It's still early. This is only the preliminary business case. The final business case has to approved by the government after procurement and before construction when the tendered costs are known.


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    #1670
    Shedite27
    Registered Users Posts: 9,379 ✭✭✭Shedite27


    Yeah first step was to agree the route, then doing surveys to ensure the route was possible.

    Now that we know the route, they've to prove that there are enough people going to use the route on a daily basis and that capacity can meet demand etc, to make it worthwhile. In theory it should hopefully be a formality.

    They couldn't do a business case until they knew where the stops would be to show how many people live within catchment of each stop


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    #1671
    cgcsb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,297 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    yascaoimhin wrote: »
    Metrolink have already said they intended to begin the tendering process before the scheme is fully approved by ABP

    ABP have the power to impose conditions that can make a significant impact on the tender cost. Tendering before these are known on one of the state's largest ever (perhaps the largest ever) single project is probably not a great idea. This will open the door to additional claims and you could end up with another children's hospital farce.

    BAM are still issuing claims on that.


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    #1672
    yascaoimhin
    Registered Users Posts: 143 ✭✭yascaoimhin


    cgcsb wrote: »
    ABP have the power to impose conditions that can make a significant impact on the tender cost. Tendering before these are known on one of the state's largest ever (perhaps the largest ever) single project is probably not a great idea. This will open the door to additional claims and you could end up with another children's hospital farce.

    BAM are still issuing claims on that.

    Metrolink have also started that the reason they took so long on detailed design was to make sure that the cost of construction can be certain.
    The Tender will be to build the finished design.


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    #1673
    cgcsb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,297 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    yascaoimhin wrote: »
    Metrolink have also started that the reason they took so long on detailed design was to make sure that the cost of construction can be certain.
    The Tender will be to build the finished design.

    We live in hope.


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    #1674
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 11,614 ✭ [Deleted User]


    cgcsb wrote: »
    We live in hope.

    I for one am certainly holding my breath.


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    #1675
    jumpinsheep
    Registered Users Posts: 40 ✭jumpinsheep


    cgcsb wrote:
    We live in hope.


    While it is for the greater good, go green, [add your reasons], etc., imagine those living in the ca. 100, between houses and apartments, under CPO threat, with the ongoing house crisis, covid19 related difficulties, etc.

    3 years already gone and who knows how many more before shovel in the ground, between government and potentially ABP reviews, giving for granted the budget is (still?) there.

    Time will tell, hopefully soon enough


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    #1676
    Podge_irl
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 25,768 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    jumpinsheep wrote: »
    While it is for the greater good, go green, [add your reasons], etc., imagine those living in the ca. 100, between houses and apartments, under CPO threat, with the ongoing house crisis, covid19 related difficulties, etc.

    3 years already gone and who knows how many more before shovel in the ground, between government and potentially ABP reviews, giving for granted the budget is (still?) there.

    Time will tell, hopefully soon enough

    The owners of the apartments will not be out of pocket and the residents received an offer that was far above what they were entitled to given a 4 years notice (i.e. entitled to nothing and were offered far above that). They had a decent chance of being evicted for non-Metrolink reasons and getting nothing...


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    #1677
    cgcsb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,297 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    jumpinsheep wrote: »
    While it is for the greater good, go green, [add your reasons], etc., imagine those living in the ca. 100, between houses and apartments, under CPO threat, with the ongoing house crisis, covid19 related difficulties, etc.

    3 years already gone and who knows how many more before shovel in the ground, between government and potentially ABP reviews, giving for granted the budget is (still?) there.

    Time will tell, hopefully soon enough

    These people have effectively won one of the secondary prizes on the lottery.


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    #1678
    jumpinsheep
    Registered Users Posts: 40 ✭jumpinsheep


    Podge_irl wrote:
    The owners of the apartments will not be out of pocket and the residents received an offer that was far above what they were entitled to given a 4 years notice (i.e. entitled to nothing and were offered far above that). [...]

    I guess you're referring to tenants with "residents" - what was offered to them and when? Any reference?
    Any tenant availed of whatever was on offer?

    Podge_irl wrote:
    [...] They had a decent chance of being evicted for non-Metrolink reasons and getting nothing...

    Any example of those non-Metrolink eviction reasons?
    Can only think of tenants not paying rent and being evicted by the property owner as a consequence; not sure if that's what you're suggesting as one of the non-Metrolink reasons?


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    #1679
    CatInABox
    Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 10,268 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatInABox


    jumpinsheep wrote: »
    I guess you're referring to tenants with "residents" - what was offered to them and when? Any reference?
    Any tenant availed of whatever was on offer?

    Nothing has happened on CPOs, other than the NTA/TII publishing the CPO guideline document for the Metrolink project.

    The CPO process will begin around the time the Railway order is approved. Most likely, the NTA/TII will go with a carrot and stick approach: They'll make an offer that's substantially above fair market value, and if the owner chooses to reject the offer and go to court, then they'll only get fair market value.

    Outside of that, they'll get a fair bit of the process compensated too, such as legal fees, removal fees, stamp duty, etc.

    The CPO process is pretty mature, and outside of the farmer in Leixlip and his epic battle with Intel/IDA, there's very little complaints about it. Even in the Intel/IDA case, the problem was that the IDA were only CPOing his land on mere possibility of Intel expanding in the future, and the courts correctly told them to get lost. Once Intel announced plans to expand, and the IDA could prove it was in the national interest, then the CPO went through, and the farmer lost his case. It'll be extremely simple to prove that Metrolink is worth the CPO of a few houses/apartments.


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    #1680
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users Posts: 17,584 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    cgcsb wrote: »
    These people have effectively won one of the secondary prizes on the lottery.

    To be fair, while the CPO process is essential, and the people concerned will rightly be very well compensated, I don't think that anyone who does end up having to move home through no choice of their own having happily lived somewhere, would view it in quite such a positive light!

    Moving home is one of the traumatic experiences in life I think, especially trying to find a suitable new location.


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    #1681
    yascaoimhin
    Registered Users Posts: 143 ✭✭yascaoimhin


    jumpinsheep wrote: »
    imagine those living in the ca. 100, between houses and apartments, under CPO threat, with the ongoing house crisis, covid19 related difficulties, etc.

    The campaign to save this apartment block has largely gone silent.
    Save for retweeting the ramblings of Cormac Rabbitt from "Metro Dublin" they haven't said anything about fighting the CPO since May last year.


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