Starting doing body weight exercise training

PhilOssophy · 22-03-2021 01:35PM #1

I was listening to Professor Niall Moyna a few weeks ago saying that a person of my age should be able to do I think it was 24 press ups or something.
I got down and tried and could do 4.....yes I know.
I am physically in good shape and had no problem with the running targets that he was suggesting, I am well over the thresholds so there's no problem there. I've always enjoyed running but I know I need to start doing more body weight exercises, etc. I have zero interest in significant muscle gain, it just isn't for me. So I have no interest in starting to do weights, etc. I do however want to do body weight exercises, can anybody recommend any good programmes/apps/etc which might be a good starting point?
Needless to say, Google is a plethora of all sorts of info, so I said I'd see what has worked for others, etc in this regard.
Thanks for reading!
(BTW, I really don't enjoy weight exercises!)

Patsy167 · 22-03-2021 02:54PM

Reddits Bodyweight community have plenty of good videos and links - https://www.reddit.com/r/bodyweightfitness/wiki/routines/bwf-primer

Black Sheep · 22-03-2021 07:32PM

PhilOssophy wrote: »

I was listening to Professor Niall Moyna a few weeks ago saying that a person of my age should be able to do I think it was 24 press ups or something.
I got down and tried and could do 4.....yes I know.
I am physically in good shape and had no problem with the running targets that he was suggesting, I am well over the thresholds so there's no problem there. I've always enjoyed running but I know I need to start doing more body weight exercises, etc. I have zero interest in significant muscle gain, it just isn't for me. So I have no interest in starting to do weights, etc. I do however want to do body weight exercises, can anybody recommend any good programmes/apps/etc which might be a good starting point?
Needless to say, Google is a plethora of all sorts of info, so I said I'd see what has worked for others, etc in this regard.
Thanks for reading!
(BTW, I really don't enjoy weight exercises!)

Being in good shape means being competent in several domains. Cardiovascular fitness is one, but strength and power are the flip side of the coin and into old age they are linked to the lean muscle mass and bone density that is such a great determinant of what your quality of life will be like.

You could do worse than beginning by doing several sets of pushups through the day to begin to get your work capacity and max numbers on them a little higher, before you start a proper program. Google “grease the groove” and apply it. If your max is four pushups it will be difficult to do a lot of basic bodyweight training at this stage, most programs will presume you can perform more than four.

rubadub · 23-03-2021 04:46PM

PhilOssophy wrote: »

I was listening to Professor Niall Moyna a few weeks ago saying that a person of my age should be able to do I think it was 24 press ups or something.
I got down and tried and could do 4.....yes I know.

You would have to see a video of what he would call a borderline pushup.

Somebody could bang out 60 pushups in the style you see people doing for speed world records, but only 10 ones that some strict person would insist they do.

iguana · 23-03-2021 05:46PM

Black Sheep wrote: »

Being in good shape means being competent in several domains. Cardiovascular fitness is one, but strength and power are the flip side of the coin and into old age they are linked to the lean muscle mass and bone density that is such a great determinant of what your quality of life will be like.

Don’t forget flexibility, especially active flexibility which leads to improved mobility and end range strength.

Black Sheep · 23-03-2021 08:08PM

iguana wrote: »

Don’t forget flexibility, especially active flexibility which leads to improved mobility and end range strength.

Yes, and there’s several more domains depending on the model used.

Not all equally important, must be said.

Will_I_Regret · 23-03-2021 08:42PM

rubadub wrote: »

You would have to see a video of what he would call a borderline pushup.

Somebody could bang out 60 pushups in the style you see people doing for speed world records, but only 10 ones that some strict person would insist they do.

This x1000

All push ups are not created equal.

Too hard to judge 1 rep unless you are touching your chest off the floor at the bottom, arms in full lockout at the top of the rep and strict control of hips while not rounding the back.

Black Sheep · 24-03-2021 10:28AM

Of of curiosity I went off to find this Niall Moyna's standards.

From an article on the push-ups:-

If you are a 30-year-old male, you should be able to do a minimum of 21 normal push-ups. Most would find that difficult.

"When you get to 40 years old, it is 16; 60 years old it is 12. That may seem very easy to do, but go home tonight and try it.

"If you are 20 years of age, it is 30 push-ups.

"For a 30-year-old female has to do 14 modified (knees on the floor) push-ups as women have much less muscle strength as men.

https://www.otbsports.com/best-of-otb/irish-fitness-test-1140984

He actually says the above is just the average, which I think is interesting, because I would agree that in terms of having a goal to shoot for, the numbers indicated are low. But as an average, yeah, considering how sedentary the population is, it may well make sense. I don't think he's wrong in saying that a lot of people would fit these numbers difficult to hit.

Push-ups are one of those movements that people commonly cheat on, but in fairness even if someone is doing strict chest to ground push-ups (hand release is a way of ensuring this) and locking out fully at the top, the 'average' numbers above should be do-able.

Patsy167 · 24-03-2021 10:34AM

This is one of the best resources I've used for bodyweight exercises -
https://www.nick-e.com/exercise-library/strength-library/bodyweight/

There are lots of progression steps so they are suitable for absolute beginners

Ush1 · 24-03-2021 10:42AM

It's a pretty arbitrary measurement. I know plenty of strong, athletic people who never do pushups.

24-03-2021 10:54AM

I think it's missing a very important caveat, *after X weeks of training*, because anyone I know who has never ever trained push ups struggles massively to do any, the very first time they try, but pretty quickly learns how to do 10+ when they practice a few times a week if they are reasonably fit. It's a very steep learning curve at the start.

Then how far apart your arms are and your elbow angle will use activate different muscles and give you different numbers depending on how much you've trained them.

Re OP, just do as many as you can at the start, fail on the last one if you have to, and then after a week or two start doing extra sets, you should start to see the amount you can do each set increasing as well. Once you get to 5 sets then just keep increasing the total amount of reps per set. I'd say every second day at the start and then every day once you feel comfortable with them with the odd day off (if you want).

Black Sheep · 24-03-2021 11:45AM

Ush1 wrote: »

It's a pretty arbitrary measurement. I know plenty of strong, athletic people who never do pushups.

If people are doing benching, kettlebell pressing or whatever else is their preference, if they are becoming strong on the back of it then they should see that strength carried over to push-ups if it's real, because they aren't skill specific enough for it to be an issue.

As you say, it's just a testing metric here, a way of measuring upper body strength, more specifically in what we'd tend to frame as the horizontal push movement pattern. It is arbitrary in that sense, although hard to think of a better alternative choice.

All that being said, there is a neurological adaptation that happens with any movement, and it's true that people's push-up numbers do go up significantly with more practice. But someone who is average should be able to hit the average number mentioned, and then, yes, in a week or two their numbers will peak a little more. But let's not beat around the bush, if someone can't hit the push-up standards mentioned then it is fair to say it's an indicator of below average strength. I'm sceptical if there is a suggestion that falling under the average performance can reasonably be framed as to do with movement standards or lack of skill at the movement.

GreeBo · 24-03-2021 11:49AM

PhilOssophy wrote: »

I have zero interest in significant muscle gain,

To be frank, this is not something you need to worry about!

Mellor · 24-03-2021 12:44PM

PhilOssophy wrote: »

I got down and tried and could do 4.....yes I know.
I am physically in good shape and had no problem with the running targets that he was suggesting
...I have zero interest in significant muscle gain, it just isn't for me.

No offence, but if you could only do 4 push-ups you are quite a way off be fit or in good shape.
Sorry to be blunt, but that’s just the reality of the only being able to do singe digit press-ups.

Good news is it won’t take you you you double, and triple those numbers.

Ush1 wrote: »

It's a pretty arbitrary measurement. I know plenty of strong, athletic people who never do pushups.

It’s a test, not a training system.
They may not ever do push-ups, but if they are strong and athletic they could if they tried.

Augme · 24-03-2021 12:50PM

The Titan workouts ab is excellent for body weight stuff. It provides a very simple and easy to use, but very customable programe.

If I was starting out I'd aim to pick two of the exercises and just do them in a day on/day off manner.

iguana · 24-03-2021 01:50PM

riffmongous wrote: »

but pretty quickly learns how to do 10+ when they practice a few times a week if they are reasonably fit. It's a very steep learning curve at the start.

That's the thing with fitness though. Nobody can really be good at every single exercise all the time. Any new exercise will take practice as you adapt to the various differences. But a fitter person will adapt very quickly to things their body already has the strength/fitness for while an unfit person will have to increase their fitness/strength first. I've introduced a new exercise plenty of times and found them really tough the first time, still relatively challenging the second time. But by the third or fourth time it becomes so much easier because I've adapted to the new movement and my existing fitness takes over. Then there are other exercises that are a serious challenge for a really long time as I have to build strength bit by bit as I go. I can do a pull up. Just one, and in all honesty on a bad day that that's not even possible. On a good day I can do one, stop shake out my arms and then do another. I can't manage a third. I'm currently working towards getting 3 without stopping but that could easily take a year or more. But as a woman, managing even one is often considered impossible, so I'm more than ok with it taking a lot time to progress.

PhilOssophy · 24-03-2021 03:21PM

Mellor wrote: »

No offence, but if you could only do 4 push-ups you are quite a way off be fit or in good shape.
Sorry to be blunt, but that’s just the reality of the only being able to do singe digit press-ups.

Thanks for the encouragement. I think I know my physique, I can run a sub 20 minute 5k and have ran a sub 1:30 half marathon the summer before lockdown, whatever year that was!

I know myself what I need to do to improve certain aspects, and have identified this as a weakness, but thanks for the encouragement anyway.

iguana · 25-03-2021 10:54AM

For a 30-year-old female has to do 14 modified (knees on the floor) push-ups as women have much less muscle strength as men.

Just thinking on this, is this not an unbelievably low standard for women? Apart from when I was heavily pregnant, I can't imagine any point in my life, even when I was deeply out of shape that I couldn't manage that. And it seems like it's just 14. Not 14x3 or anything. The main challenge I've ever found with modified push-ups is endurance, keep going until exhaustion, take a rest and start again. Obviously as I've never been a man and have no idea how easy a push-up is for a man but the male test seems like a reasonable challenge for a man while the female one holds us to a fairly pathetic standard.

GreeBo · 25-03-2021 11:37AM

PhilOssophy wrote: »

Thanks for the encouragement. I think I know my physique, I can run a sub 20 minute 5k and have ran a sub 1:30 half marathon the summer before lockdown, whatever year that was!

I know myself what I need to do to improve certain aspects, and have identified this as a weakness, but thanks for the encouragement anyway.

I dont think he is trying to discourage you, merely pointing out that being able to run well (far better than I can fwiw!) is but a single measure of fitness.

Would you consider someone who can bench 250KG but not run 5Km fit? If not, why should they consider you fit when you can't do 5 press ups?

for me at least, fitness is strength, endurance and flexibility, you gotta be proficient in all 3.

GreeBo · 25-03-2021 11:38AM

iguana wrote: »

Just thinking on this, is this not an unbelievably low standard for women? Apart from when I was heavily pregnant, I can't imagine any point in my life, even when I was deeply out of shape that I couldn't manage that. And it seems like it's just 14. Not 14x3 or anything. The main challenge I've ever found with modified push-ups is endurance, keep going until exhaustion, take a rest and start again. Obviously as I've never been a man and have no idea how easy a push-up is for a man but the male test seems like a reasonable challenge for a man while the female one holds us to a fairly pathetic standard.

I'd guess its due to the fact that so few women do strength exercises like this.
physiologically I would say its a low bar, but based on observation I would say its a high standard for the average population to reach.

Black Sheep · 25-03-2021 12:05PM

Yep, it's that this is the 'average', not an aspirational standard or objective measure of what a person should be able to do.

When bodyweight exercises are used as a metric for fitness testing it's worth bearing in mind that it really hits the segment of the population which is overweight or obese, and that's increasing all the time.

iguana · 25-03-2021 01:04PM

This is a standard that an average 30 year old woman 'should' be able to achieve. Not the average standard a current 30 year old woman is at. And it's incredibly low for either, tbh.

GreeBo · 25-03-2021 01:06PM

iguana wrote: »

This is a standard that an average 30 year old woman 'should' be able to achieve. Not the average standard a current 30 year old woman is at. And it's incredibly low for either, tbh.

But you have to base that standard on something thats real...

Black Sheep · 25-03-2021 01:44PM

What he says in the interview on OTB is

"This is the average, so it you are below this number then you are below average. If you are a 30-year-old male, you should be able to do a minimum of 21 normal push-ups. Most would find that difficult.

It's not actually clear to me how he arrived at the figures used, but since he says this is the average and people failing to reach it are below average, I'm assuming there is some data that he arrives at the average from. Not clear how much heavy lifting his use of the word "should" is doing, but I think we can reasonably assume that he has genuinely tried to get an average figure for the general population, or beliefs he has as close to it as he can get.

If you're taken aback that it's incredibly low, I don't know what to tell you. The men's standards are low too. It's probably reflective of the general population's upper body strength, particularly when it's an exercise where bodyweight-to-strength is relevant.

Mellor · 25-03-2021 01:57PM

PhilOssophy wrote: »

Thanks for the encouragement. I think I know my physique, I can run a sub 20 minute 5k and have ran a sub 1:30 half marathon the summer before lockdown, whatever year that was!

That’s a good standard of cardiovascular fitness. But as pointed out by posters above. They are multiple aspects to fitness. It wasn’t intended as a put down, but a honest assessment of the reality of the position.
I don’t think a shallow, “oh, 4 push ups is really good” is of a benefit to you in the slightest. As I said, if you focus on it you’ll double, triple, and beyond in no time. Just draw a line under it and take this as a starting point.

GreeBo · 25-03-2021 01:58PM

Black Sheep wrote: »

particularly when it's an exercise where bodyweight-to-strength is relevant.

I think is the key, I can do 25 push ups with my weight, I would probably struggle to do 10 if I was 95+Kg.

Cill94 · 25-03-2021 02:19PM

iguana wrote: »

This is a standard that an average 30 year old woman 'should' be able to achieve. Not the average standard a current 30 year old woman is at. And it's incredibly low for either, tbh.

it's definitely relative to the population's abilities. An average woman that age should be able to do at least several full push-ups after a year of training.

You have to consider just how low the fitness of the average person is. For example, standard for the bleep test to get into An Garda Siochana is equivalent to the score of the average 10 year old child. And yet still many people fail.

water-man · 25-03-2021 02:20PM

This guy:

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCeJFgNahi--FKs0oJyeRDEw

And this guy:

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC_nfjMmJlJXrhl2xbP9wgRA

WM

Alf Veedersane · 25-03-2021 02:33PM

iguana wrote: »

This is a standard that an average 30 year old woman 'should' be able to achieve. Not the average standard a current 30 year old woman is at. And it's incredibly low for either, tbh.

But you're basing it on you and how easy you would find it. They have based it on their experience and what the average is. Your average would be on right-hand slope of the bell curve

iguana · 25-03-2021 02:34PM

Black Sheep wrote: »

If you're taken aback that it's incredibly low, I don't know what to tell you. The men's standards are low too. It's probably reflective of the general population's upper body strength, particularly when it's an exercise where bodyweight-to-strength is relevant.

Fair enough. I'm not sure then what the point of setting out an average as something to attain is when the average fitness is poor. It's like how in the UK, size 16 is the average woman's dress size. But unless a woman is quite tall, size 16 is overweight. Aiming to fit in a size 16 because it's average would still leave most women overweight. We should be aiming at average biological norms rather than average in a generally unfit society. Otherwise we are normalising poor health.

GreeBo · 25-03-2021 02:45PM

Cill94 wrote: »

it's definitely relative to the population's abilities. An average woman that age should be able to do at least several full push-ups after a year of training.

I guess the point is that the average woman (or man for that matter) arent training, nevermind for a year.

Further to that, I would wager that 90% of both sexes who are training are running and not doing any strength training.

Starting doing body weight exercise training

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