Starting doing body weight exercise training

PhilOssophy

I was listening to Professor Niall Moyna a few weeks ago saying that a person of my age should be able to do I think it was 24 press ups or something.
I got down and tried and could do 4.....yes I know.
I am physically in good shape and had no problem with the running targets that he was suggesting, I am well over the thresholds so there's no problem there. I've always enjoyed running but I know I need to start doing more body weight exercises, etc. I have zero interest in significant muscle gain, it just isn't for me. So I have no interest in starting to do weights, etc. I do however want to do body weight exercises, can anybody recommend any good programmes/apps/etc which might be a good starting point?
Needless to say, Google is a plethora of all sorts of info, so I said I'd see what has worked for others, etc in this regard.
Thanks for reading!
(BTW, I really don't enjoy weight exercises!)

Patsy167

Reddits Bodyweight community have plenty of good videos and links - https://www.reddit.com/r/bodyweightfitness/wiki/routines/bwf-primer

Black Sheep

PhilOssophy wrote: »

I was listening to Professor Niall Moyna a few weeks ago saying that a person of my age should be able to do I think it was 24 press ups or something.
I got down and tried and could do 4.....yes I know.
I am physically in good shape and had no problem with the running targets that he was suggesting, I am well over the thresholds so there's no problem there. I've always enjoyed running but I know I need to start doing more body weight exercises, etc. I have zero interest in significant muscle gain, it just isn't for me. So I have no interest in starting to do weights, etc. I do however want to do body weight exercises, can anybody recommend any good programmes/apps/etc which might be a good starting point?
Needless to say, Google is a plethora of all sorts of info, so I said I'd see what has worked for others, etc in this regard.
Thanks for reading!
(BTW, I really don't enjoy weight exercises!)

Being in good shape means being competent in several domains. Cardiovascular fitness is one, but strength and power are the flip side of the coin and into old age they are linked to the lean muscle mass and bone density that is such a great determinant of what your quality of life will be like.

You could do worse than beginning by doing several sets of pushups through the day to begin to get your work capacity and max numbers on them a little higher, before you start a proper program. Google “grease the groove” and apply it. If your max is four pushups it will be difficult to do a lot of basic bodyweight training at this stage, most programs will presume you can perform more than four.

rubadub

PhilOssophy wrote: »

I was listening to Professor Niall Moyna a few weeks ago saying that a person of my age should be able to do I think it was 24 press ups or something.
I got down and tried and could do 4.....yes I know.

You would have to see a video of what he would call a borderline pushup.

Somebody could bang out 60 pushups in the style you see people doing for speed world records, but only 10 ones that some strict person would insist they do.

iguana

Black Sheep wrote: »

Being in good shape means being competent in several domains. Cardiovascular fitness is one, but strength and power are the flip side of the coin and into old age they are linked to the lean muscle mass and bone density that is such a great determinant of what your quality of life will be like.

Don’t forget flexibility, especially active flexibility which leads to improved mobility and end range strength.

Black Sheep

iguana wrote: »

Don’t forget flexibility, especially active flexibility which leads to improved mobility and end range strength.

Yes, and there’s several more domains depending on the model used.

Not all equally important, must be said.

Will_I_Regret

rubadub wrote: »

You would have to see a video of what he would call a borderline pushup.

Somebody could bang out 60 pushups in the style you see people doing for speed world records, but only 10 ones that some strict person would insist they do.

This x1000

All push ups are not created equal.

Too hard to judge 1 rep unless you are touching your chest off the floor at the bottom, arms in full lockout at the top of the rep and strict control of hips while not rounding the back.

Black Sheep

Of of curiosity I went off to find this Niall Moyna's standards.

From an article on the push-ups:-

If you are a 30-year-old male, you should be able to do a minimum of 21 normal push-ups. Most would find that difficult.

"When you get to 40 years old, it is 16; 60 years old it is 12. That may seem very easy to do, but go home tonight and try it.

"If you are 20 years of age, it is 30 push-ups.

"For a 30-year-old female has to do 14 modified (knees on the floor) push-ups as women have much less muscle strength as men.

https://www.otbsports.com/best-of-otb/irish-fitness-test-1140984

He actually says the above is just the average, which I think is interesting, because I would agree that in terms of having a goal to shoot for, the numbers indicated are low. But as an average, yeah, considering how sedentary the population is, it may well make sense. I don't think he's wrong in saying that a lot of people would fit these numbers difficult to hit.

Push-ups are one of those movements that people commonly cheat on, but in fairness even if someone is doing strict chest to ground push-ups (hand release is a way of ensuring this) and locking out fully at the top, the 'average' numbers above should be do-able.

Patsy167

This is one of the best resources I've used for bodyweight exercises -
https://www.nick-e.com/exercise-library/strength-library/bodyweight/

There are lots of progression steps so they are suitable for absolute beginners

Ush1

It's a pretty arbitrary measurement. I know plenty of strong, athletic people who never do pushups.

riffmongous

I think it's missing a very important caveat, *after X weeks of training*, because anyone I know who has never ever trained push ups struggles massively to do any, the very first time they try, but pretty quickly learns how to do 10+ when they practice a few times a week if they are reasonably fit. It's a very steep learning curve at the start.

Then how far apart your arms are and your elbow angle will use activate different muscles and give you different numbers depending on how much you've trained them.

Re OP, just do as many as you can at the start, fail on the last one if you have to, and then after a week or two start doing extra sets, you should start to see the amount you can do each set increasing as well. Once you get to 5 sets then just keep increasing the total amount of reps per set. I'd say every second day at the start and then every day once you feel comfortable with them with the odd day off (if you want).

Black Sheep

Ush1 wrote: »

It's a pretty arbitrary measurement. I know plenty of strong, athletic people who never do pushups.

If people are doing benching, kettlebell pressing or whatever else is their preference, if they are becoming strong on the back of it then they should see that strength carried over to push-ups if it's real, because they aren't skill specific enough for it to be an issue.

As you say, it's just a testing metric here, a way of measuring upper body strength, more specifically in what we'd tend to frame as the horizontal push movement pattern. It is arbitrary in that sense, although hard to think of a better alternative choice.

All that being said, there is a neurological adaptation that happens with any movement, and it's true that people's push-up numbers do go up significantly with more practice. But someone who is average should be able to hit the average number mentioned, and then, yes, in a week or two their numbers will peak a little more. But let's not beat around the bush, if someone can't hit the push-up standards mentioned then it is fair to say it's an indicator of below average strength. I'm sceptical if there is a suggestion that falling under the average performance can reasonably be framed as to do with movement standards or lack of skill at the movement.

GreeBo

PhilOssophy wrote: »

I have zero interest in significant muscle gain,

To be frank, this is not something you need to worry about!

Mellor

PhilOssophy wrote: »

I got down and tried and could do 4.....yes I know.
I am physically in good shape and had no problem with the running targets that he was suggesting
...I have zero interest in significant muscle gain, it just isn't for me.

No offence, but if you could only do 4 push-ups you are quite a way off be fit or in good shape.
Sorry to be blunt, but that’s just the reality of the only being able to do singe digit press-ups.

Good news is it won’t take you you you double, and triple those numbers.

Ush1 wrote: »

It's a pretty arbitrary measurement. I know plenty of strong, athletic people who never do pushups.

It’s a test, not a training system.
They may not ever do push-ups, but if they are strong and athletic they could if they tried.

Augme

The Titan workouts ab is excellent for body weight stuff. It provides a very simple and easy to use, but very customable programe.

If I was starting out I'd aim to pick two of the exercises and just do them in a day on/day off manner.

iguana

riffmongous wrote: »

but pretty quickly learns how to do 10+ when they practice a few times a week if they are reasonably fit. It's a very steep learning curve at the start.

That's the thing with fitness though. Nobody can really be good at every single exercise all the time. Any new exercise will take practice as you adapt to the various differences. But a fitter person will adapt very quickly to things their body already has the strength/fitness for while an unfit person will have to increase their fitness/strength first. I've introduced a new exercise plenty of times and found them really tough the first time, still relatively challenging the second time. But by the third or fourth time it becomes so much easier because I've adapted to the new movement and my existing fitness takes over. Then there are other exercises that are a serious challenge for a really long time as I have to build strength bit by bit as I go. I can do a pull up. Just one, and in all honesty on a bad day that that's not even possible. On a good day I can do one, stop shake out my arms and then do another. I can't manage a third. I'm currently working towards getting 3 without stopping but that could easily take a year or more. But as a woman, managing even one is often considered impossible, so I'm more than ok with it taking a lot time to progress.

PhilOssophy

Mellor wrote: »

No offence, but if you could only do 4 push-ups you are quite a way off be fit or in good shape.
Sorry to be blunt, but that’s just the reality of the only being able to do singe digit press-ups.

Thanks for the encouragement. I think I know my physique, I can run a sub 20 minute 5k and have ran a sub 1:30 half marathon the summer before lockdown, whatever year that was!

I know myself what I need to do to improve certain aspects, and have identified this as a weakness, but thanks for the encouragement anyway.

iguana

For a 30-year-old female has to do 14 modified (knees on the floor) push-ups as women have much less muscle strength as men.

Just thinking on this, is this not an unbelievably low standard for women? Apart from when I was heavily pregnant, I can't imagine any point in my life, even when I was deeply out of shape that I couldn't manage that. And it seems like it's just 14. Not 14x3 or anything. The main challenge I've ever found with modified push-ups is endurance, keep going until exhaustion, take a rest and start again. Obviously as I've never been a man and have no idea how easy a push-up is for a man but the male test seems like a reasonable challenge for a man while the female one holds us to a fairly pathetic standard.

GreeBo

PhilOssophy wrote: »

Thanks for the encouragement. I think I know my physique, I can run a sub 20 minute 5k and have ran a sub 1:30 half marathon the summer before lockdown, whatever year that was!

I know myself what I need to do to improve certain aspects, and have identified this as a weakness, but thanks for the encouragement anyway.

I dont think he is trying to discourage you, merely pointing out that being able to run well (far better than I can fwiw!) is but a single measure of fitness.

Would you consider someone who can bench 250KG but not run 5Km fit? If not, why should they consider you fit when you can't do 5 press ups?

for me at least, fitness is strength, endurance and flexibility, you gotta be proficient in all 3.

GreeBo

iguana wrote: »

Just thinking on this, is this not an unbelievably low standard for women? Apart from when I was heavily pregnant, I can't imagine any point in my life, even when I was deeply out of shape that I couldn't manage that. And it seems like it's just 14. Not 14x3 or anything. The main challenge I've ever found with modified push-ups is endurance, keep going until exhaustion, take a rest and start again. Obviously as I've never been a man and have no idea how easy a push-up is for a man but the male test seems like a reasonable challenge for a man while the female one holds us to a fairly pathetic standard.

I'd guess its due to the fact that so few women do strength exercises like this.
physiologically I would say its a low bar, but based on observation I would say its a high standard for the average population to reach.

Black Sheep

Yep, it's that this is the 'average', not an aspirational standard or objective measure of what a person should be able to do.

When bodyweight exercises are used as a metric for fitness testing it's worth bearing in mind that it really hits the segment of the population which is overweight or obese, and that's increasing all the time.

iguana

This is a standard that an average 30 year old woman 'should' be able to achieve. Not the average standard a current 30 year old woman is at. And it's incredibly low for either, tbh.

GreeBo

iguana wrote: »

This is a standard that an average 30 year old woman 'should' be able to achieve. Not the average standard a current 30 year old woman is at. And it's incredibly low for either, tbh.

But you have to base that standard on something thats real...

Black Sheep

What he says in the interview on OTB is

"This is the average, so it you are below this number then you are below average. If you are a 30-year-old male, you should be able to do a minimum of 21 normal push-ups. Most would find that difficult.

It's not actually clear to me how he arrived at the figures used, but since he says this is the average and people failing to reach it are below average, I'm assuming there is some data that he arrives at the average from. Not clear how much heavy lifting his use of the word "should" is doing, but I think we can reasonably assume that he has genuinely tried to get an average figure for the general population, or beliefs he has as close to it as he can get.

If you're taken aback that it's incredibly low, I don't know what to tell you. The men's standards are low too. It's probably reflective of the general population's upper body strength, particularly when it's an exercise where bodyweight-to-strength is relevant.

Mellor

PhilOssophy wrote: »

Thanks for the encouragement. I think I know my physique, I can run a sub 20 minute 5k and have ran a sub 1:30 half marathon the summer before lockdown, whatever year that was!

That’s a good standard of cardiovascular fitness. But as pointed out by posters above. They are multiple aspects to fitness. It wasn’t intended as a put down, but a honest assessment of the reality of the position.
I don’t think a shallow, “oh, 4 push ups is really good” is of a benefit to you in the slightest. As I said, if you focus on it you’ll double, triple, and beyond in no time. Just draw a line under it and take this as a starting point.

GreeBo

Black Sheep wrote: »

particularly when it's an exercise where bodyweight-to-strength is relevant.

I think is the key, I can do 25 push ups with my weight, I would probably struggle to do 10 if I was 95+Kg.

Cill94

iguana wrote: »

This is a standard that an average 30 year old woman 'should' be able to achieve. Not the average standard a current 30 year old woman is at. And it's incredibly low for either, tbh.

it's definitely relative to the population's abilities. An average woman that age should be able to do at least several full push-ups after a year of training.

You have to consider just how low the fitness of the average person is. For example, standard for the bleep test to get into An Garda Siochana is equivalent to the score of the average 10 year old child. And yet still many people fail.

water-man

This guy:

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCeJFgNahi--FKs0oJyeRDEw

And this guy:

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC_nfjMmJlJXrhl2xbP9wgRA

WM

Alf Veedersane

iguana wrote: »

This is a standard that an average 30 year old woman 'should' be able to achieve. Not the average standard a current 30 year old woman is at. And it's incredibly low for either, tbh.

But you're basing it on you and how easy you would find it. They have based it on their experience and what the average is. Your average would be on right-hand slope of the bell curve

iguana

Black Sheep wrote: »

If you're taken aback that it's incredibly low, I don't know what to tell you. The men's standards are low too. It's probably reflective of the general population's upper body strength, particularly when it's an exercise where bodyweight-to-strength is relevant.

Fair enough. I'm not sure then what the point of setting out an average as something to attain is when the average fitness is poor. It's like how in the UK, size 16 is the average woman's dress size. But unless a woman is quite tall, size 16 is overweight. Aiming to fit in a size 16 because it's average would still leave most women overweight. We should be aiming at average biological norms rather than average in a generally unfit society. Otherwise we are normalising poor health.

GreeBo

Cill94 wrote: »

it's definitely relative to the population's abilities. An average woman that age should be able to do at least several full push-ups after a year of training.

I guess the point is that the average woman (or man for that matter) arent training, nevermind for a year.

Further to that, I would wager that 90% of both sexes who are training are running and not doing any strength training.

Black Sheep

I actually agree that we should set high but achievable standards for people, and that we shouldn't normalise poor fitness... But if this fellow had come out with a table of fitness standards that set out ambitious standards based on what people are theoretically capable of doing you can be sure that people would have been crying salty, salty tears. Because as a population our performance is so far under what we're capable of it's uncomfortable reading, as Cilian says above.

In a way, by making the numbers the average, they do have a chance of shocking the general population out on complacency. The OP in this thread, who would consider himself fit, finds he cannot perform even half of the average number of pushups for his category. I think it does make it a lot harder to dismiss a weak performance if you're genuinely being compared to an average of all of society, not compared to an active or athletic cohort of people.

iguana

I come at this with the perspective of someone who became overweight and increasingly unfit by my late 30s. While I ultimately take complete responsibility for that, one of causes of me sliding like that was due to a tendency to judge myself based on social norms. Which is probably an evolutionary trait but one that just isn’t healthy when social norms are very out of whack with biological norms. To me I wasn’t fat or unhealthy, I was just ‘a bit out of shape’ because I was very average among my peers. And I would have still had a reasonably decent amount of fitness compared to most of my friends at the time. If I’d read a fitness test like this I would have done it, managed fine and congratulated myself on being fine after all and had a chocolate bar to celebrate.

GreeBo

iguana wrote: »

I come at this with the perspective of someone who became overweight and increasingly unfit by my late 30s. While I ultimately take complete responsibility for that, one of causes of me sliding like that was due to a tendency to judge myself based on social norms. Which is probably an evolutionary trait but one that just isn’t healthy when social norms are very out of whack with biological norms. To me I wasn’t fat or unhealthy, I was just ‘a bit out of shape’ because I was very average among my peers. And I would have still had a reasonably decent amount of fitness compared to most of my friends at the time. If I’d read a fitness test like this I would have done it, managed fine and congratulated myself on being fine after all and had a chocolate bar to celebrate.

It is very easy to let things slip alright, what saves me from this and gives me a wakeup call is that I'm a skinflint so still wear clothes that are 10 years old (at least!), if they stop fitting then its time to act!

Alf Veedersane

The bar sounds low but they are minimum standards for a profile of person and I think we overestimate the general public's ability to meet those standards.

iguana

GreeBo wrote: »

It is very easy to let things slip alright, what saves me from this and gives me a wakeup call is that I'm a skinflint so still wear clothes that are 10 years old (at least!), if they stop fitting then its time to act!

I’m a skinflint too but I worked in a charity shop!

These days though I’m back in some stuff I wore as a teenager in the 90s.

iguana

PhilOssophy wrote: »

I got down and tried and could do 4.....yes I know.

When you tried to do a push-up did you fully engage your core? A lot of people just looking at a push-up tend to think it's just about the arms and chest. But you aren't going to do them very well without full core engagement. (It's why I think people need to be careful with knee-push-ups, they are too easy to do without good core and lower body engagement.) I'd suggest practicing vacuums for a few days and learning to really engage your transverse abdominis. Before I start a set of push-ups, I kneel down, breathe deeply into my belly, breathe out, engage my transverse abdominus and start. With my whole core engaged, my lower body automatically engages too and the whole movement is just so much more controlled.

Ush1

Mellor wrote: »

It’s a test, not a training system.
They may not ever do push-ups, but if they are strong and athletic they could if they tried.

I didn't say it was a training system. As I said, it's an arbitrary test.

External Association

The late Tony Busan used speak of the various areas of fitness, aerobic, core strength and muscular, poise and balance. Can't remember the rest.

But OP, with a light bodyweight just being able to do 4 pushups is physically weak. It's a lack of balanced fitness.

The very same as somebody who spends all their time in the gym saying I can run for 4 minutes straight without stopping.

Besides core work will act as a shock absorber for a runner and increase stamina. All top track and cross country runners do core work.

Jerrykay6

PhilOssophy wrote: »

I was listening to Professor Niall Moyna a few weeks ago saying that a person of my age should be able to do I think it was 24 press ups or something.
I got down and tried and could do 4.....yes I know.
I am physically in good shape and had no problem with the running targets that he was suggesting, I am well over the thresholds so there's no problem there. I've always enjoyed running but I know I need to start doing more body weight exercises, etc. I have zero interest in significant muscle gain, it just isn't for me. So I have no interest in starting to do weights, etc. I do however want to do body weight exercises, can anybody recommend any good programmes/apps/etc which might be a good starting point?
Needless to say, Google is a plethora of all sorts of info, so I said I'd see what has worked for others, etc in this regard.
Thanks for reading!
(BTW, I really don't enjoy weight exercises!)

While you may be aerobically fit, not being able to do 4 press ups is incredibly weak. The good new is you can make great strength gains very quickly if you start training.

External Association

Jerrykay6 wrote: »

While you may be aerobically fit, not being able to do 4 press ups is incredibly weak. The good new is you can make great strength gains very quickly if you start training.

Especially weak with a light body. But as you say, loads of hope, easily worked on.

I'm 16st, mid 40s and do 3 sets of 20 pressups a day. I'd run a best mile in 6m 20sec. Ok for my age and build. Could be better.

Jerrykay6

External Association wrote: »

Especially weak with a light body. But as you say, loads of hope, easily worked on.

I'm 16st, mid 40s and do 3 sets of 20 pressups a day. I'd run a best mile in 6m 20sec. Ok for my age and build. Could be better.

I forgot to mention that the fact op is looking to address this issue is fantastic. But it definitely needs to be addressed. Not being able to do a few press ups as an adult male is incredibly weak, it would be akin to being gassed from a short walk, in terms of aerobic fitness.

Black Sheep

OK lads, I think he's got the message at this stage. His question was how to begin to program for improvement, in fairness.

Jerrykay6

Black Sheep wrote: »

OK lads, I think he's got the message at this stage. His question was how to begin to program for improvement, in fairness.

To be fair a sub 20 5k is an excellent standard of aerobic fitness, if op applies some of that discipline/consistancy toward strength training he will be in a much better position in no time at all.

PhilOssophy

Jerrykay6 wrote: »

While you may be aerobically fit, not being able to do 4 press ups is incredibly weak. The good new is you can make great strength gains very quickly if you start training.

I didn't say it wasn't. In fact, I said just that in my original post. Hence the thread. Hence my wish to do something about it.

Mods - you can lock this thread, I'm unfollowing. I should have known. After all the responses, I think 1-2 posters offered something constructive other than being condescending a holes.

Jerrykay6

PhilOssophy wrote: »

I didn't say it wasn't. In fact, I said just that in my original post. Hence the thread. Hence my wish to do something about it.

Mods - you can lock this thread, I'm unfollowing. I should have known. After all the responses, I think 1-2 posters offered something constructive other than being condescending a holes.

if you took the time to read my replies properly without getting your knickers in a twist you'll notice I complimented your excellent aerobic fitness on more than one occasion and also mentioned how you'll have no problem improving your strength if you apply some of that determination toward strength training.

PhilOssophy

Jerrykay6 wrote: »

if you took the time to read my replies properly without getting your knickers in a twist you'll notice I complimented your excellent aerobic fitness on more than one occasion and also mentioned how you'll have no problem improving your strength if you apply some of that determination toward strength training.

Yes and my original post said "can anybody recommend any good programmes/apps/etc which might be a good starting point?".

So I was looking for "I followed this programme / app / etc and found it great". Not "you are in very bad shape, 4 press ups is terrible" responses. I fng know it is.

I think 1-2 posters above have offered helpful advice in this question. Everyone else seems to just want to rant and patronise about the problem which I know myself I want to fix, which is why I started the thread in the first place.

Anyway, I'll move along and look elsewhere as there's not much help above.

Jerrykay6

PhilOssophy wrote: »

Yes and my original post said "can anybody recommend any good programmes/apps/etc which might be a good starting point?".

So I was looking for "I followed this programme / app / etc and found it great". Not "you are in very bad shape, 4 press ups is terrible" responses. I fng know it is.

I think 1-2 posters above have offered helpful advice in this question. Everyone else seems to just want to rant and patronise about the problem which I know myself I want to fix, which is why I started the thread in the first place.

Anyway, I'll move along and look elsewhere as there's not much help above.

reddit calisthenics is a good place to start. Would reccomend joining a gym and following a structured programme (reddit fitness) once possible.

External Association

PhilOssophy wrote: »

Yes and my original post said "can anybody recommend any good programmes/apps/etc which might be a good starting point?".

So I was looking for "I followed this programme / app / etc and found it great". Not "you are in very bad shape, 4 press ups is terrible" responses. I fng know it is.

I think 1-2 posters above have offered helpful advice in this question. Everyone else seems to just want to rant and patronise about the problem which I know myself I want to fix, which is why I started the thread in the first place.

Anyway, I'll move along and look elsewhere as there's not much help above.

Without a gym there are a lot of things you can do at home.

Do 3 sets of pushups a day and build up the number in each set.
Do same with situps.
And same with planks and side planks.
Do 3 sets of mountain climbers.
Do 3 sets of tricep dips using a chair against a door or wall.
Do 3 sets of bridging, lying flat on your back with alternate legs raise on a couch\gym ball.

You have an exceptional aerobic base to start with. There are 101 core strength for beginner videos on youtube.

I think many of us here are so used to these exercises through various sports that we're taking it for granted everyone knows them.