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Shooting Forum - Firearms licencing information


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Garda Courses

  • 13-03-2021 5:26pm
    #1
    justbehindit
    Registered Users Posts: 32 ✭


    I was just wondering, do the guards who work as FO's have to do much if any training? Like a course on firearms and all things firearm related or do they just learn on the job? It often feels like when ever I'm talking to an FO they're not quite as knowledgeable as you'd expect. Not saying it's their fault or anything, but just wondering if this is the case country wide or just where I'm based.


«1

Comments

  • #2
    Feisar
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,698 ✭✭✭Feisar


    justbehindit wrote: »
    I was just wondering, do the guards who work as FO's have to do much if any training? Like a course on firearms and all things firearm related or do they just learn on the job? It often feels like when ever I'm talking to an FO they're not quite as knowledgeable as you'd expect. Not saying it's their fault or anything, but just wondering if this is the case country wide or just where I'm based.

    My man is a gent but know SFA about guns. I’d say it’s a role ya draw the short straw for.

    First they came for the socialists...



  • #3
    Zxthinger
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,113 ✭✭✭Zxthinger


    It seems that they often have no interest in guns.. and without an interest you won't strive in the foundation of firearms technologies.

    Their remit is storage, and licensing. yes a few know their stuff but how manny of then of them could tell you the difference between a 220 swift and a 22mag

    This lack of training means nothing anyway. The rules are still the rules..
    if you love guns youll keep things right.. end of.

    How may here have had a 220 swift and applied for a 22-250 only to be told that you required a deer hunting licence.. even though it's a 5percent downgrade in power and velocity..

    How many have seen requested amounts on ammo-limits on your licence application slashed. Or air rifle shooters limited to just 50 or 100 rounds

    We better of with them in the dark..


  • #4
    clivej
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,061 ✭✭✭clivej


    I must have the best FO,
    She knows a good bit about licensing but will sometimes ask me when I'm in about what is happening at the moment.
    Last license was in and out in 2 weeks and another 1000 rounds on the license.


  • #5
    tudderone
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,280 ✭✭✭tudderone


    I was talking to the FO in my local station, and while she was nice to deal with and efficient, she was seriously po'ed with it. As she said herself, its not what you join the gardai to do.


  • #6
    alanmc
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,139 ✭✭✭alanmc


    From my dealings with FOs, it seems to be a role that's rotated around the pool of sergeants every 6 months or a year or so (at least in my local). It's a bunch of admin tasks and paperwork on top of all of their normal day job activities, so some of them see it as a pain in the ar$e (I would too), and it often gets bumped down the priority queue when actual police work needs to get done.

    So, it gets no "love" as it's considered a side job, and a tedious one at that.


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  • #7
    tudderone
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,280 ✭✭✭tudderone


    alanmc wrote: »
    From my dealings with FOs, it seems to be a role that's rotated around the pool of sergeants every 6 months or a year or so (at least in my local). It's a bunch of admin tasks and paperwork on top of all of their normal day job activities, so some of them see it as a pain in the ar$e (I would too), and it often gets bumped down the priority queue when actual police work needs to get done.

    So, it gets no "love" as it's considered a side job, and a tedious one at that.

    I know in the UK they have civilian workers for routine paperwork like licence renewal. It frees up a police.


  • #8
    JP22
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 585 ✭✭✭JP22


    Basically, its a hit and miss affair, some FO's have an interest in firearms, most however do not, its just a job to be completed.

    End of day, its a paperwork job like any other, checking this/that/and the other, however FO's do not work by themselves.

    From what I have been told - Local FO's complete all the necessary paperwork and complete any checks/house visits etc. as required, completed paperwork is then submitted to the Area/District FO (normally a Sergeant I believe) for final checking/semi approval and for final submission to the relevant Super authorising the license.


  • #9
    tudderone
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,280 ✭✭✭tudderone


    JP22 wrote: »
    Basically, its a hit and miss affair, some FO's have an interest in firearms, most however do not, its just a job to be completed.

    End of day, its a paperwork job like any other, checking this/that/and the other, however FO's do not work by themselves.

    From what I have been told - Local FO's complete all the necessary paperwork and complete any checks/house visits etc. as required, completed paperwork is then submitted to the Area/District FO (normally a Sergeant I believe) for final checking/semi approval and for final submission to the relevant Super authorising the license.

    Is that not a dedicated crime prevention officer ?


  • #10
    Vizzy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,540 ✭✭✭Vizzy


    JP22 wrote: »
    Basically, its a hit and miss affair, some FO's have an interest in firearms, most however do not, its just a job to be completed.

    End of day, its a paperwork job like any other, checking this/that/and the other, however FO's do not work by themselves.

    From what I have been told - Local FO's complete all the necessary paperwork and complete any checks/house visits etc. as required, completed paperwork is then submitted to the Area/District FO (normally a Sergeant I believe) for final checking/semi approval and for final submission to the relevant Super authorising the license.

    Not in my station.
    You submit everything and the application is checked by a civilian.
    If security checks are necessary, then this is done by the FO, then everything is submitted to the Super for sign off.
    Since they started using a civilian to do the initial checking things have sped up quite a bit.


  • #11
    Grizzly 45
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,070 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45


    For most,its a duty that they get lumped with.
    Fill in and check routine paperwork and push it up the chain to deal with the decision making.When you have a moment,between stopping people going on holidays,or no staying within 5 click of their house arrests.:rolleyes:

    You might be lucky and have the one Gada that actually takes an interest in this specific field of policing and makes an effort to become as informed and knowledgeable in it, as others go and bone up on the road traffic act, or on a field that they are interested in and think it will help up the ladder. It seems [un]fortunatly we don't have too many interested in this aspect of police work

    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



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  • #12
    JP22
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 585 ✭✭✭JP22


    Vizzy wrote: »
    Not in my station. You submit everything and the application is checked by a civilian. If security checks are necessary, then this is done by the FO, then everything is submitted to the Super for sign off.
    Since they started using a civilian to do the initial checking things have sped up quite a bit.

    Yes, some civilians (Secretaries) are now doing the job or checking the applications in some stations, not all, but I believe an area FO (Sgt) must sign off the application before final submission to the Super.


  • #13
    Vizzy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,540 ✭✭✭Vizzy


    JP22 wrote: »
    Yes, some civilians (Secretaries) are now doing the job or checking the applications in some stations, not all, but I believe an area FO (Sgt) must sign off the application before final submission to the Super.

    Yeah, I'd say that you are bang on there, but it is taking a bit of the tedium out of dealing with the applications for the FO, particularly if they trust the civilian/ secretary to have all the boxes ticked correctly before it is submitted to them for sign off.


  • #14
    cookimonster
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,759 ✭✭✭cookimonster


    It's not actually a vacancy or position, it is an added responsibility, another cap to wear so to speak. The problem is as an 'in addition to', something we see alot in our place, its added onto your work load.
    In the case of a rank and file gaurd they must make time to do this on top of thier shift, court dates and anything else they are required to do. It's not something that over time will be given for. One lad I knew had to ask the Skipper to alot him a time slot every month to do the paper work, so you can imagine the backlog accumulating there.
    If it's done by the shift Sargent then, if they have any degree of competence there should be no issues as they have less beat time to do. Really your at the mercy of the individual work ethics, so whether they be a shop assistant, tradesman or civil servant if they don't really care you are stuffed.


  • #15
    clivej
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,061 ✭✭✭clivej


    clivej wrote: »
    I must have the best FO,
    She knows a good bit about licensing but will sometimes ask me when I'm in about what is happening at the moment.
    Last license was in and out in 2 weeks and another 1000 rounds on the license.

    Here in Kilkenny City we have a dedicated FO. Great at her job.


  • #16
    Half-cocked
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,319 ✭✭✭Half-cocked


    My FO for the last 10 years is the best I've ever encountered. I dread the day he retires. I once had an FO whom I had to explain to the difference between side by side and over under. Another who I figured knew zero about rifles so I managed to sub a .22lr for a .22-250. Worst was the one who laughed my partner out of the station when she tried to apply for a shotgun license. What would a girl want with a gun? Despite all these examples, the majority of FO's I've dealt with have been good to excellent.


  • #17
    cookimonster
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,759 ✭✭✭cookimonster


    clivej wrote: »
    Here in Kilkenny City we have a dedicated FO. Great at her job.

    We had a Sgt in the local station who did the job for well over 30 years. I got my licence off him when I was 17 and he only retired a few years back. His predecessor, a Gaurd, was dreadful but thankfully he was replaced in less then two years and this lad is excellent and on the ball.


  • #18
    tudderone
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,280 ✭✭✭tudderone


    Half-cocked wrote: »
    My FO for the last 10 years is the best I've ever encountered. I dread the day he retires. I once had an FO whom I had to explain to the difference between side by side and over under. Another who I figured knew zero about rifles so I managed to sub a .22lr for a .22-250. Worst was the one who laughed my partner out of the station when she tried to apply for a shotgun license. What would a girl want with a gun? Despite all these examples, the majority of FO's I've dealt with have been good to excellent.

    If that happened now it would be on the front of the papers !


  • #19
    Half-cocked
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,319 ✭✭✭Half-cocked


    tudderone wrote: »
    If that happened now it would be on the front of the papers !

    Indeed. Times have changed.


  • #20
    Grizzly 45
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,070 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45


    Guy'd be snowed under courses to check his sexism,white male privilidige,misogeny and everything else that the PC brigade could think of...And deservedly so in this case...
    We have an untapped growth potential here of getting women into shooting sports in Ireland, as we actually are genderless in our competitions and have some fine women shooters too.
    Arch Femminista Sen Bavik was well impressed with our answers on that point in the Dail public inquiry a awhile back, so having some edjjit like that in authority deserves to be called out.

    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



  • #21
    kravmaga
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,978 ✭✭✭kravmaga


    tudderone wrote: »
    I know in the UK they have civilian workers for routine paperwork like licence renewal. It frees up a police.

    Thats because there is a higher amount of civilisation of UK Police forces compared to AGS.

    AGS have a lot of catching up to do.


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  • #22
    BattleCorp
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,789 ✭✭✭✭BattleCorp


    In the county I'm in, one Garda does the firearms applications for all the stations around. He's a gent to deal with. If there's a delay anywhere, it's further up the chain.


  • #23
    meathstevie
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,772 ✭✭✭meathstevie


    In the district where I’m living it seems to be part of the pre-retirement or very long service deal together with immigration duties.

    It gives you the advantage of dealing with someone with experience to burn when it comes to dealing with the public and from the Garda point of view, if a long serving member in a district hasn’t got a good handle on who’s who in relation to suitability for possessing a firearm then is there any hope anyone does really ? Not all the stuff worth knowing is recorded somewhere.

    The last one and the current one are both on the ball, very easy to talk to, quite knowledgeable about firearms and definitely not too stuck up to ask what exactly you’re after if they don’t know the particular gun.


  • #24
    jb88
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 475 ✭✭jb88


    justbehindit wrote: »
    I was just wondering, do the guards who work as FO's have to do much if any training? Like a course on firearms and all things firearm related or do they just learn on the job? It often feels like when ever I'm talking to an FO they're not quite as knowledgeable as you'd expect. Not saying it's their fault or anything, but just wondering if this is the case country wide or just where I'm based.

    Had a good chat with the Instructor from an ARU team who was giving training to a team of Gardai once.
    I asked what his background was and he said he liked shooting so he got the job.
    The lad might as well be staring into a field counting sheep, it was that bad.
    Scary is all I will say, very scary and he was the instructor.

    He drew a few circles on an A4 piece of paper and put the targets up at 200 yards and asked members to shoot at the circle, how anyone can see a circle marked in pen at 200 yards with a 4 powered scope I will never know, must have better eyes than me and much better shooting skills, but who am I to pass judgement on the professionals and I use that term lightly.

    External shooting instructors from outside the Gardai is all I say, if thats the current levels, not to mention 5 shots from 5m to bring down a guy, that vid is still doing the rounds I suppose.
    Training, practice, proper instruction its the only way.

    A FO gets the job because someone doesnt like them or no one else will do it, or sometimes and thats rare they "like", shooting.


  • #25
    jb88
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 475 ✭✭jb88


    Half-cocked wrote: »
    My FO for the last 10 years is the best I've ever encountered. I dread the day he retires. I once had an FO whom I had to explain to the difference between side by side and over under. Another who I figured knew zero about rifles so I managed to sub a .22lr for a .22-250. Worst was the one who laughed my partner out of the station when she tried to apply for a shotgun license. What would a girl want with a gun? Despite all these examples, the majority of FO's I've dealt with have been good to excellent.

    Had that with a Super once, its a pleasure when they are on the ball.


  • #26
    cookimonster
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,759 ✭✭✭cookimonster


    jb88 wrote: »
    Had a good chat with the Instructor from an ERU team who was giving training to a team of Gardai once.

    Without blowing that guys cover, I'm sure I know him, is his name is Mitty, first name Walter.

    Dispite all the negative press these guys get, they are a far cry from the Detectives of yesteryear running around with 38's and Uzis.

    For feck sake and before this blows up into a free for all slagging match these guys, both in the ERU and ARU, receive extensive training in many different disciplines.

    Like special forces training there is a high drop out rate for the courses


  • #27
    otmmyboy2
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 1,586 Mod ✭✭✭✭otmmyboy2


    cookimonster wrote: »
    Dispite all the negative press these guys get, they are a far cry from the Detectives of yesteryear running around with 38's and Uzis.

    Indeed, now they are armed with Sig 9mms ;)
    Well, that and I did read that they are moving those detectives away from being routinely armed and instead using those resources to better train the ASUs.
    How truthful or propagandist that is I dunno.
    For feck sake and before this blows up into a free for all slagging match these guys, both in the ERU and ARU, receive extensive training in many different disciplines.

    I would like to hear some of their quals.
    The FBI, DEA, ATF, and various other agencies around the world provide their firearms quals courses of fire, would be fun to try.

    Might do up a sure to be denied FOI request later ;)

    On their actual qualifications I did have the pleasure of meeting one ASU member and after a relatively lengthy(few hours) chat I would not be very confident in their abilities to shoot to stop a legitimate threat to their/others life.

    Never forget, the end goal is zero firearms of any type.

    S.I. No. 187/1972 - Firearms (Temporary Custody) Order - Firearms seized

    S.I. No. 21/2008 - Firearms (Restricted Firearms and Ammunition) Order 2008 - Firearm types restricted

    Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2009 - Firearms banned & grandfathered

    S.I. No. 420/2019 - Magazine ban, ammo storage & transport restricted

    Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2023 - 2023 Firearm Ban (retroactive to 8 years prior)



  • #28
    Witcher
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,638 ✭✭✭✭Witcher


    There is no Garda unit called the 'ARU'.


  • #29
    freddieot
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,002 ✭✭✭freddieot


    I know of one FO who was give the poison chalice because he was the one in the station that knew f**k all about guns (i.e. even less than the others).

    The Supers logic, and in fairness this was years ago, was that if he gave the job to someone who liked shooting or was interested in it then he might be swayed or get carried away and be too understanding or too helpful. Better to have someone who can't stand guns, knows nothing much about them and does not want to know :D

    It's come a ways since then and my local guys are great as they are in many places but that attitude still persists in certain domains or so I'm told.


  • #30
    cookimonster
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,759 ✭✭✭cookimonster


    otmmyboy2 wrote: »
    On their actual qualifications I did have the pleasure of meeting one ARU member and after a relatively lengthy(few hours) chat I would not be very confident in their abilities to shoot to stop a legitimate threat to their/others life.

    Care to elaborate on that, based on your own skill sets or qualifications.


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  • #31
    tudderone
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,280 ✭✭✭tudderone


    I used to know an armed detective, a friend of a friend sort of thing. He showed me what he was carrying, A rattly old .38 revolver that must have been left over from the Siege of Mafeking. Not the sort of thing i'd like to be entrusting my safety to.


  • #32
    jb88
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 475 ✭✭jb88


    cookimonster wrote: »
    Without blowing that guys cover, I'm sure I know him, is his name is Mitty, first name Walter.

    Dispite all the negative press these guys get, they are a far cry from the Detectives of yesteryear running around with 38's and Uzis.

    For feck sake and before this blows up into a free for all slagging match these guys, both in the ERU and ARU, receive extensive training in many different disciplines.

    Like special forces training there is a high drop out rate for the courses

    OK Your probably right maybe it was the Armed response unit of the Gardai, for a certain district to be 100% spot on, to maybe give them some lee way.

    Thanks for the clarification, its been a while


  • #33
    jb88
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 475 ✭✭jb88


    Witcher wrote: »
    There is no Garda unit called the 'ARU'.

    A common term used to describe the regional armed gardai units or whatever name they go under, havent bothered to check,


  • #34
    Witcher
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,638 ✭✭✭✭Witcher


    jb88 wrote: »
    A common term used to describe the regional armed gardai units or whatever name they go under, havent bothered to check,

    It's the ASU.


  • #35
    otmmyboy2
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 1,586 Mod ✭✭✭✭otmmyboy2


    cookimonster wrote: »
    Care to elaborate on that, based on your own skill sets or qualifications.

    From memory -
    Time from draw to shot, followup shots, BSA, etc.
    A lot of their basic mechanics were very inefficient.
    Several rather antiquated methods of shooting(ie teacupping).
    A bit of excessive rigidity in some of their mechanics too(ie - it must be done this way because that was the way we were shown, and told not to do it any other way).
    Largely ignorant of the no flagging safety rule.
    Even flagged his partner getting back into the vehicle :P

    Infrequent practice too, with a very limited amount of retraining once qualified.

    Just because they are issued with firearms does not make them proficient with them.

    Same as firearms licencees really.
    But I would feel safer on a civilian range than a garda one, based on what I've seen.

    Never forget, the end goal is zero firearms of any type.

    S.I. No. 187/1972 - Firearms (Temporary Custody) Order - Firearms seized

    S.I. No. 21/2008 - Firearms (Restricted Firearms and Ammunition) Order 2008 - Firearm types restricted

    Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2009 - Firearms banned & grandfathered

    S.I. No. 420/2019 - Magazine ban, ammo storage & transport restricted

    Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2023 - 2023 Firearm Ban (retroactive to 8 years prior)



  • #36
    tudderone
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,280 ✭✭✭tudderone


    otmmyboy2 wrote: »
    From memory -
    Time from draw to shot, followup shots, BSA, etc.
    A lot of their basic mechanics were very inefficient.
    Several rather antiquated methods of shooting(ie teacupping).
    A bit of excessive rigidity in some of their mechanics too(ie - it must be done this way because that was the way we were shown, and told not to do it any other way).
    Largely ignorant of the no flagging safety rule.
    Even flagged his partner getting back into the vehicle :P

    Infrequent practice too, with a very limited amount of retraining once qualified.

    Just because they are issued with firearms does not make them proficient with them.

    Same as firearms licencees really.
    But I would feel safer on a civilian range than a garda one, based on what I've seen.


    But they operate under very difficult situations and conditions, very stressful incidents. We seen that in the news from Blanchardstown last year. When you do shoot someone, everyone becomes an expert in tactics and ballistics and knows what you did wrong. Its not a job i'd like.


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  • #37
    otmmyboy2
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 1,586 Mod ✭✭✭✭otmmyboy2


    tudderone wrote: »
    [/B]

    But they operate under very difficult situations and conditions, very stressful incidents. We seen that in the news from Blanchardstown last year. When you do shoot someone, everyone becomes an expert in tactics and ballistics and knows what you did wrong. Its not a job i'd like.

    Oh completely, they do.
    But that is why I mentioned civi vs garda range in particular.

    If you aren't at your best that you can be(no one is perfect, there is always room for improvement obviously) on a flat range with no threats around you and not having to keep your eyes open, focus on weapon retention, etc then I do not think you will rise to the occasion in a more charged scenario.
    To the contrary, you will fall back to your level of training & proficiency.

    Thus if the range is bad enough, the other is likely to be worse.

    Never forget, the end goal is zero firearms of any type.

    S.I. No. 187/1972 - Firearms (Temporary Custody) Order - Firearms seized

    S.I. No. 21/2008 - Firearms (Restricted Firearms and Ammunition) Order 2008 - Firearm types restricted

    Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2009 - Firearms banned & grandfathered

    S.I. No. 420/2019 - Magazine ban, ammo storage & transport restricted

    Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2023 - 2023 Firearm Ban (retroactive to 8 years prior)



  • #38
    cookimonster
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,759 ✭✭✭cookimonster


    Witcher wrote: »
    There is no Garda unit called the 'ARU'.

    As slip of the acronym.... the official title is Armed Support Units (ASU)

    https://www.garda.ie/en/about-us/organised-serious-crime/special-tactics-operations-command/


  • #39
    cookimonster
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,759 ✭✭✭cookimonster


    otmmyboy2 wrote: »
    From memory -
    Time from draw to shot, followup shots, BSA, etc.
    A lot of their basic mechanics were very inefficient.
    Several rather antiquated methods of shooting(ie teacupping).
    A bit of excessive rigidity in some of their mechanics too(ie - it must be done this way because that was the way we were shown, and told not to do it any other way).
    Largely ignorant of the no flagging safety rule.
    Even flagged his partner getting back into the vehicle :P

    Infrequent practice too, with a very limited amount of retraining once qualified.

    Just because they are issued with firearms does not make them proficient with them.

    Same as firearms licencees really.
    But I would feel safer on a civilian range than a garda one, based on what I've seen.

    When is the last time you witnessed these points. Alot has changed in the recent past. Tea cupping, for feck sake we don't even do that now, that went out years ago. Range practice, TOET, qualification etc all stand within special units. Don't get the plain clothes armed gaurd confused with the ASU or the ERU.
    Flagging,.... try getting 4 or 5 of you in and out of vehicles without at least one of ye swinging a muzzle in frount of a buddy, it happens on operational duty. It's part of the responsibility of going a foot with operational firearms.
    Every day there are military personnel going about thier routines carrying loaded firearms. Many of these lads only undergo once a year weapons refreshes yet the incident rate of NDs is extremely low.
    On the other scale many of the operational armed units of the Gaurds and DF conduct live fire exercises, were fire and manoeuvre is carried out in close contact with each other.
    Things have change from the old range practice and the Olympic style pistol stance.


  • #40
    otmmyboy2
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 1,586 Mod ✭✭✭✭otmmyboy2


    cookimonster wrote: »
    When is the last time you witnessed these points.

    Never witnessed, discussed. These came out while chatting to the chap during a break at an event we both happened to be doing.
    Alot has changed in the recent past.

    This would have been 2018, recent past meaning last year, months?
    Tea cupping, for feck sake we don't even do that now, that went out years ago. Range practice, TOET, qualification etc all stand within special units.

    I should think that tea cupping had been gone for a while, but not according to chappie.
    Care to elaborate on some quals in that case? Even in board terms.
    Don't get the plain clothes armed gaurd confused with the ASU or the ERU.

    Well he had all the gear on, was carrying an MP7, and identified himself as ASU when I inquired, so I'm presuming he was...
    Flagging,.... try getting 4 or 5 of you in and out of vehicles without at least one of ye swinging a muzzle in frount of a buddy, it happens on operational duty. It's part of the responsibility of going a foot with operational firearms.

    Not just flagging getting into the vehicle, but that did stick out in my mind at the time, hence the mention specifically.
    Every day there are military personnel going about thier routines carrying loaded firearms. Many of these lads only undergo once a year weapons refreshes yet the incident rate of NDs is extremely low.

    I know, I've also had the pleasure of watching some of those once a year lads on the range.
    Enlightening to say the least.
    On the other scale many of the operational armed units of the Gaurds and DF conduct live fire exercises, were fire and manoeuvre is carried out in close contact with each other.

    Given their working env I should think so.
    Things have change from the old range practice and the Olympic style pistol stance.

    Again I should think so, those things should have gone the way of the dodo long ago.

    Never forget, the end goal is zero firearms of any type.

    S.I. No. 187/1972 - Firearms (Temporary Custody) Order - Firearms seized

    S.I. No. 21/2008 - Firearms (Restricted Firearms and Ammunition) Order 2008 - Firearm types restricted

    Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2009 - Firearms banned & grandfathered

    S.I. No. 420/2019 - Magazine ban, ammo storage & transport restricted

    Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2023 - 2023 Firearm Ban (retroactive to 8 years prior)



  • #41
    cookimonster
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,759 ✭✭✭cookimonster


    otmmyboy2 wrote: »
    Never witnessed, discussed. These came out while chatting to the chap during a break at an event we both happened to be doing.

    Then that's 'Hearsay'

    - information received from other people which cannot be substantiated; rumour.

    This thread started out inquring about 'FO's qualifications in regards to doing that particular duty and has meandered along to discussing firearms training etc of the Gaurds, which in all honesty I think is fine and how certain discussion can evolve.
    I think on several times there has been a cross over between the modern specialised units utilized by the GS and the old style training given in the past to Garda personnel which is an unfair comparison.
    Am I more qualified then the next person to comment on this subject, no I am not, but given my life experience as a serving member of the DF and social interaction with members of the GS both through shooting and scuba diving and for my sins having family serving in the Gaurds you do tend to pick up some info here and there.
    But I will reiterate that like other sectors of society both private and public the armed units of the Gaurds are made up of professionals.


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  • #42
    otmmyboy2
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 1,586 Mod ✭✭✭✭otmmyboy2


    cookimonster wrote: »
    Then that's 'Hearsay'

    - information received from other people which cannot be substantiated; rumour.

    Now wouldn't your own post(https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=116601601&postcount=39) not qualify under the same definition of hearsay in that case?

    I can only speak from my own experiences & encounters, and maybe there are some high speed chaps in the ASUs, but I evidently have not met one :P

    Can't comment on the DF's as I've had less interactions with them.
    but given my life experience as a serving member of the DF

    In that case can you share some of the DF's quals/drills possibly?
    I'm always looking to learn something new if possible. :)

    Never forget, the end goal is zero firearms of any type.

    S.I. No. 187/1972 - Firearms (Temporary Custody) Order - Firearms seized

    S.I. No. 21/2008 - Firearms (Restricted Firearms and Ammunition) Order 2008 - Firearm types restricted

    Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2009 - Firearms banned & grandfathered

    S.I. No. 420/2019 - Magazine ban, ammo storage & transport restricted

    Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2023 - 2023 Firearm Ban (retroactive to 8 years prior)



  • #43
    cookimonster
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,759 ✭✭✭cookimonster


    otmmyboy2 wrote: »
    Now wouldn't your own post(https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=116601601&postcount=39) not qualify under the same definition of hearsay in that case?

    Err... no, that's first hand experience and interaction.
    In that case can you share some of the DF's quals/drills possibly?
    I'm always looking to learn something new if possible. :)

    I take it from the emoji your asking that question tongue in cheek, so you won't be offended when I don't reply.


  • #44
    otmmyboy2
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 1,586 Mod ✭✭✭✭otmmyboy2


    cookimonster wrote: »
    Err... no, that's first hand experience and interaction.

    Well, what I was hearing from chappie was first hand experience and interaction too.
    Sure you hearing it from me is hearsay, same as me hearing it from you?
    It's the end of my work day, so I could well be missing something here.
    I take it from the emoji your asking that question tongue in cheek, so you won't be offended when I don't reply.

    Apologies, that was actually a serious question. I enjoy shooting quals to see how I can do with them.

    Never forget, the end goal is zero firearms of any type.

    S.I. No. 187/1972 - Firearms (Temporary Custody) Order - Firearms seized

    S.I. No. 21/2008 - Firearms (Restricted Firearms and Ammunition) Order 2008 - Firearm types restricted

    Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2009 - Firearms banned & grandfathered

    S.I. No. 420/2019 - Magazine ban, ammo storage & transport restricted

    Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2023 - 2023 Firearm Ban (retroactive to 8 years prior)



  • #45
    Grizzly 45
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,070 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45


    tudderone wrote: »
    I used to know an armed detective, a friend of a friend sort of thing. He showed me what he was carrying, A rattly old .38 revolver that must have been left over from the Siege of Mafeking. Not the sort of thing i'd like to be entrusting my safety to.

    Knew one as well that had the same armament, loaded with target wadcutter loads...That was the early 1990s so I hope that has improved. ...Hopefully..
    As they have invested in about 5 million worth of NI made container style shooting ranges about the country...

    The last report that I saw in the Indo, in the late oughties had their scores being utterly horrible, like 80 % of them couldn't get a 50% or above score at 10 15 meters on stationary man target. It's almost impossible to get any sort of info on these units as they dodge FOIA requests under "operational security".

    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



  • #46
    cookimonster
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,759 ✭✭✭cookimonster


    MOD NOTE

    I draw posters attention to the Rule-
    There are limits on the discussion of current events and media reportage

    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=66989669&postcount=14

    As this is a recent and ongoing investigation it is not tasteful or suitable for discussion here. The thread has being tidied up of any such reference.

    No more discussion on the on going investigation.


  • #47
    freddieot
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,002 ✭✭✭freddieot


    One comment I would like to make, not as an expert of some sort, but as someone who knows a few of these guys either through personal contacts or just to talk to over the years :-

    When I, like many others, was preparing for and fighting my cases in Court over the ludicrous situation we had nearly a decade ago now with Handguns and renewals etc, it was the rank and file Gardaí, many of them that were working in armed units like these, that told me straight that they could not grasp the logic of wasting money persecuting law abiding shooters over shi*e, especially shooters that were in clubs and had guns already for years without any issues.

    The PTB policies made no difference to crime rates and they were certainly not bothered whether I had a 9mm, a .22 or a 12 gauge. There would be no sudden shortage of firearms or ammo for drug dealers and crime bosses and the whole things was just optics for politics sake and again wasting money that would be better spent on more training, equipment and hours. That was the view of say about a dozen individuals I spoke to.

    In short, they are not ALL out to get us and many realise how ludicrous the firearms regulatory system has become. TBH I'm a bit disappointed with some of the comments in this thread. They may be quite true in some cases but overall we want to be careful we don't outdo our PTB opponents in regard to casting general aspersions and generally running down the abilities of other people who shoot, especially those that can't directly post on here and argue their own corner.


  • #48
    cookimonster
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,759 ✭✭✭cookimonster


    freddieot wrote: »
    One comment I would like to make, ..........

    Absolutely, spot on.


  • #49
    Grizzly 45
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,070 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45


    The problem has NEVER been with the people on the mean streets,or the coalface of policing IN, ANY, SHAPE,OR, FORM, EVER. We have said numerous times over the years here.
    The problem is with the "political class" above a certain rank...Always has been. Even those below doing day to day Garda stuff would agree.

    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



  • #50
    tudderone
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,280 ✭✭✭tudderone


    freddieot wrote: »
    One comment I would like to make, not as an expert of some sort, but as someone who knows a few of these guys either through personal contacts or just to talk to over the years :-

    When I, like many others, was preparing for and fighting my cases in Court over the ludicrous situation we had nearly a decade ago now with Handguns and renewals etc, it was the rank and file Gardaí, many of them that were working in armed units like these, that told me straight that they could not grasp the logic of wasting money persecuting law abiding shooters over shi*e, especially shooters that were in clubs and had guns already for years without any issues.

    The PTB policies made no difference to crime rates and they were certainly not bothered whether I had a 9mm, a .22 or a 12 gauge. There would be no sudden shortage of firearms or ammo for drug dealers and crime bosses and the whole things was just optics for politics sake and again wasting money that would be better spent on more training, equipment and hours. That was the view of say about a dozen individuals I spoke to.

    In short, they are not ALL out to get us and many realise how ludicrous the firearms regulatory system has become. TBH I'm a bit disappointed with some of the comments in this thread. They may be quite true in some cases but overall we want to be careful we don't outdo our PTB opponents in regard to casting general aspersions and generally running down the abilities of other people who shoot, especially those that can't directly post on here and argue their own corner.

    Politics.


  • #51
    cookimonster
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,759 ✭✭✭cookimonster


    But until recently the rank and file made up the ' "political class" above a certain rank...'

    But at the same time sh1t rolls down hill and the ones on the bottom get it from both directions - joe public and the hierarchy.


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