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What exactly is happening with AstraZeneca?

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Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 727 ✭✭✭NeuralNetwork


    It is also a product that is made in multiple plants by contract manufacturers in a complex supply chain. The U.K. supplies, for example, may not even be coming from the same supply chain or stock.

    Biotech products are made in processes using living cells and viruses. So you’re dealing with something that has more in common with brewing in the sense that it’s a biological process rather than manufacturing using chemicals as in traditional pharma.

    It’s hopefully nothing, but it needs to be followed up. You cannot just assume just because the U.K. hasn’t seen an issue that the issue doesn’t exist elsewhere. They may not be using precisely the same product from the same plants.

    It doesn’t mean there’s anything wrong with the overall product - it could be anything from a manufacturing issue, a filling issue, a storage issue, a problem with syringes used or, just a freak blip in the data caused by a cluster that’s totally unrelated to the vaccine.

    That’s why you need to be able to get to the bottom of it. Most likely they will withdraw a batch but they’ll have to check the whole way though everything and they should hopefully have an answer to this rapidly.

    In all likelihood, is probably nothing of concern but, but until they establish that it’s obviously raised an alarm that’s loud enough to have multiple countries pause to gather the facts.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 8,410 ✭✭✭plodder


    It is also a product that is made in multiple plants by contract manufacturers in a complex supply chain. The U.K. supplies, for example, may not even be coming from the same supply chain or stock.

    Biotech products are made in processes using living cells and viruses. So you’re dealing with something that has more in common with brewing in the sense that it’s a biological process rather than manufacturing using chemicals as in traditional pharma.

    It’s hopefully nothing, but it needs to be followed up. You cannot just assume just because the U.K. hasn’t seen an issue that the issue doesn’t exist elsewhere. They may not be using precisely the same product from the same plants.
    Was just about to ask a similar question. If it's not a batch issue, how do we know it's not a "factory" issue?

    “The beginning of wisdom is to call things by their proper name.” - Confucius



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 727 ✭✭✭NeuralNetwork


    plodder wrote: »
    Was just about to ask a similar question. If it's not a batch issue, how do we know it's not a "factory" issue?

    At the moment we don’t know anything, which is why there’s a pause. They’ll be going through data.

    Every dose is linked to a batch so, they’ll be able to see if it occurred in just an isolated number of cases at random or if there’s a link to a batch.

    You could even have something like an unrelated outbreak of some other illness that impacted a cluster of people. You could discover there’s some unusual reaction amongst a group of people who are perhaps genetically related and have a weird immune response.

    It could be a physical issue with storage etc etc etc or just some totally freak incident that is within the acceptable level of what you’d expect in any situation.

    There are lots of explanations - most of which don’t implicate the product, but they need to be sure.

    The vaccine has passed all the regulatory approvals and has been rolled out in the U.K. to millions without any problems, so it’s not at all likely to be a general issue with the vaccine itself as a technology or product.

    I would compare this to the aviation regulatory authorities grounding a major, very safe airliner because of a report of some odd cluster of incidents. It’s just part of active regulatory monitoring and it’s better to find any potential glitch, rule it out or solve it than to just assume it’s nothing and carry on regardless.

    It’s not unusual for this to happen in highly regulated areas like medicine, aviation, nuclear power, transport services like closing a bridge due to a concern that subsequently turns out to be nothing etc etc

    There’s a precautionary principle that’s followed in this kind of regulatory environment and it is very fundamental to keeping people safe but also to ensuring confidence too.

    I think it’s very wrong footed to assume this is an slur on a particular vaccine or that it’s anything unusual. It’s a useful procedure and part of the framework of ensuring the rollout goes smoothly by ironing any issues before they can become anything of significance.

    We need to park politics and conspiracy theories and just get on with it. There’s a bigger picture issue of ensuring that the vaccination programme is smooth, safe and has public confidence and proactive regulation is a big part of that.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,199 ✭✭✭✭bucketybuck


    Wolf359f wrote: »
    If we all followed your lead, we would have had 80% less covid cases, yet the same hospital and death figures.

    So whats the problem then?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,552 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    People talk about damaging confidence in the vaccine by pausing roll out of it but which of these do you think will damage confidence more;
    1. Flag raised over safety; pause use to investigate and if not issue is found, continue to use
    2. Flag raised over safety; assume its grand and just carry on

    This is the right thing to do.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,722 ✭✭✭✭Strazdas


    Pete_Cavan wrote: »
    People talk about damaging confidence in the vaccine by pausing roll out of it but which of these do you think will damage confidence more;
    1. Flag raised over safety; pause use to investigate and if not issue is found, continue to use
    2. Flag raised over safety; assume its grand and just carry on

    This is the right thing to do.

    Yes, I don't buy the argument that the authorities moving very cautiously somehow will cause vaccine hesitancy at all. If anything, it should reassure people that they have their best interests at heart.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,070 ✭✭✭realdanbreen


    The EU and many of the states within including ourselves have stated several times that AstraZeneca are not a reliable firm and what they promise cannot be relied on. Why then are we supposed to believe that the vaccine they produce is effective and without side effects. They tell us we have no choice in what vaccine we get_ well I have, I'm not taking the AZ vaccine!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 17,748 ✭✭✭✭astrofool


    The EU and many of the states within including ourselves have stated several times that AstraZeneca are not a reliable firm and what they promise cannot be relied on. Why then are we supposed to believe that the vaccine they produce is effective and without side effects. They tell us we have no choice in what vaccine we get_ well I have, I'm not taking the AZ vaccine!

    The vaccine is working excellently, and rollout has only been paused to be extra cautious, but will likely resume quickly.

    Most of the issues with AZ has been around how the company has released production information figures and estimates, and prioritised supply outside the EU which is unrelated to the excellence of the vaccine itself.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,070 ✭✭✭realdanbreen


    astrofool wrote: »
    The vaccine is working excellently, and rollout has only been paused to be extra cautious, but will likely resume quickly.

    Most of the issues with AZ has been around how the company has released production information figures and estimates, and prioritised supply outside the EU which is unrelated to the excellence of the vaccine itself.

    They have been called an unreliable company that's my point!


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,146 Mod ✭✭✭✭robinph


    Why then are we supposed to believe that the vaccine they produce is effective and without side effects.

    Astra Zeneca didn't create the vaccine, a group from Oxford University did. Astra Zeneca were brought in to manufacture and distribute it.

    Of the various vaccine types it is the least "new" technology and is using similar way of creating the immunity to what has been done many times before in many other vaccines. As much is known about how it works as any of the other vaccines. If you are worried about new technologies then the Astra Zeneca vaccine isn't the one to be worried about, not that there is anything to be worried about with the others either.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 92,394 ✭✭✭✭JP Liz V1


    EMA says its view currently stands: “the benefits of the AstraZeneca vaccine in preventing COVID-19, with its associated risk of hospitalisation and death, outweigh the risks of side effects.”


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,570 ✭✭✭Tyrone212


    The Paul-Ehrlich-In­sti­tut in­forms - Tem­po­rary Sus­pen­sion of Vac­ci­na­tion with COVID-19 Vac­cine As­traZeneca

    Following intensive consultations on the serious thrombotic events that have occurred in Germany and Europe, the Paul-Ehrlich-Institut recommends the temporary suspension of vaccinations with the COVID-19 vaccine AstraZeneca.

    Compared to the status on 11 March 2021, additional cases (as of Monday, 15 March 2021) have now been reported in Germany. Analysing the new data status, the experts of the Paul-Ehrlich-Institut now see a striking accumulation of a special form of very rare cerebral vein thrombosis (sinus vein thrombosis) in connection with a deficiency of blood platelets (thrombocytopenia) and bleeding in temporal proximity to vaccinations with the COVID-19 vaccine AstraZeneca.

    The data are being further analysed and evaluated by the European Medicines Agency (EMA).

    Vaccinations with AstraZeneca's COVID-19 vaccine in Germany will be suspended until the EMA's evaluation is complete. Today's decision affects both initial and follow-up vaccinations.

    The Paul-Ehrlich-Institut advises that individuals who have received AstraZeneca's COVID-19 vaccine and feel increasingly unwell more than four days after vaccination - for example, with severe and persistent headache or pinpoint bleeding of the skin - should seek medical treatment immediately.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 9,056 ✭✭✭Ficheall


    A friend of mine in Spain says they've joined the list of countries who have paused AZ.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,878 ✭✭✭✭Red Silurian


    Ficheall wrote: »
    A friend of mine in Spain says they've joined the list of countries who have paused AZ.

    France, Germany and Italy all deciding not to follow the science also


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 2,303 ✭✭✭Thinkingaboutit


    I'm somewhat of the view that there is something of getting the UK back for Brexit. Unfortunately a portion react badly to vaccines. We will see if the portion of bad reactions is notable.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,700 ✭✭✭Wolf359f


    I'm somewhat of the view that there is something of getting the UK back for Brexit. Unfortunately a portion react badly to vaccines. We will see if the portion of bad reactions is notable.

    Norway, Iceland, Thailand and Congo are not EU members, why would they care about brexit?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,242 ✭✭✭✭Danzy


    I'm somewhat of the view that there is something of getting the UK back for Brexit. Unfortunately a portion react badly to vaccines. We will see if the portion of bad reactions is notable.

    There is bit of an element of saying that the British vaccine was dodge and it's why they are weeks to post Covid crisis so don't look at the EU figures.

    Not the point intended just an opportunity taken.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,878 ✭✭✭✭Red Silurian


    I'm somewhat of the view that there is something of getting the UK back for Brexit. Unfortunately a portion react badly to vaccines. We will see if the portion of bad reactions is notable.

    I don't think Brexit has much of an influence on the EU countries decisions this weekend... At the same time I'd say the brexiteers are loving the recent failures of the EU vaccination programmes


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,242 ✭✭✭✭Danzy


    At the same time I'd say the brexiteers are loving the recent failures of the EU vaccination programmes

    They don't seem to be gloating much, it's a big risk to them as well, the EU remains their largest trade partner and it's lax approach to putting this behind isn't a help to any economy.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,885 ✭✭✭✭MEGA BRO WOLF 5000


    So what happens to people now who have had one shot of this poison. Where do we stand?


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,624 ✭✭✭✭martingriff


    So what happens to people now who have had one shot of this poison. Where do we stand?

    That is a very good point. You can't mix or match as I think the others are the RNA vaccines. So there are 2 options.

    A) Is give the 2nd dose
    B) is give the full treatment of another.

    I think they are hoping it will only be a week at best before an answer is known


  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 11,088 Mod ✭✭✭✭Jim2007


    France, Germany and Italy all deciding not to follow the science also

    But who’s science? That coming from the vendor and the UK government who is so invested in it at this stage that they can’t afford it to be wrong?? I would not place much reliance on that kind of science...

    The study in South Africa concluded it was not fit for purpose, Switzerland (where I live) has refused to approve it due to a failure on the vendor’s part to provide sufficient data and the vendor has yet to apply for approval in the US, last I heard....

    Yes we are suffering a shortage right now, but in six months we’ll be awash in doses. One factor here in Switzerland just started production a few weeks ago and has a capacity to produce 300m doses a year.

    There is no undo or back button with this, so I’m happy for a pause until it gets sorted.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,885 ✭✭✭✭MEGA BRO WOLF 5000


    I'd hate to go back to the end of the queue again. Whatever I got bloody worked anyway, I had what felt like full blown flu after the first jab.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,518 ✭✭✭fly_agaric


    Danzy wrote: »
    There is bit of an element of saying that the British vaccine was dodge and it's why they are weeks to post Covid crisis so don't look at the EU figures.

    :confused: I've read and re-read and don't know what you are getting at.
    I doubt people (in Ireland) give much of a shít who exactly developed or produced the vaccine they just want to be vaccinated asap with something that works and is safe. Speaking for myself there anyway...

    All who've read along have been schooled ad nauseum (for much of 3200 or so posts) about the UKs very clever and quick vaccine contract signers and their govts' hands-on work with AZ on getting their domestic vaccine production up & running + making sure no one else can snaffle any prematurely.

    If there is something "real" found to be going on here, seems to me it is far more likely something in the EU supply (or batches etc) and that can provide another opportunity for Brexit Believers to feel all smug & warm inside! :)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,722 ✭✭✭✭Strazdas


    Jim2007 wrote: »
    But who’s science? That coming from the vendor and the UK government who is so invested in it at this stage that they can’t afford it to be wrong?? I would not place much reliance on that kind of science...

    The study in South Africa concluded it was not fit for purpose, Switzerland (where I live) has refused to approve it due to a failure on the vendor’s part to provide sufficient data and the vendor has yet to apply for approval in the US, last I heard....

    Yes we are suffering a shortage right now, but in six months we’ll be awash in doses. One factor here in Switzerland just started production a few weeks ago and has a capacity to produce 300m doses a year.

    There is no undo or back button with this, so I’m happy for a pause until it gets sorted.

    AZ's targets have been so lowered that it will only ever be a minority vaccine in Europe. Based on current predictions, it won't even get up to 20% of first doses this year.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,242 ✭✭✭✭Danzy


    Jim2007 wrote: »
    But who’s science? That coming from the vendor and the UK government who is so invested in it at this stage that they can’t afford it to be wrong?? I would not place much reliance on that kind of science...

    The study in South Africa concluded it was not fit for purpose, Switzerland (where I live) has refused to approve it due to a failure on the vendor’s part to provide sufficient data and the vendor has yet to apply for approval in the US, last I heard....

    Yes we are suffering a shortage right now, but in six months we’ll be awash in doses. One factor here in Switzerland just started production a few weeks ago and has a capacity to produce 300m doses a year.

    There is no undo or back button with this, so I’m happy for a pause until it gets sorted.

    17mn vaccinated to date. It's one of the most monitored vaccines in history.

    Do you support vaccines in general or believe that they are purely medical?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,242 ✭✭✭✭Danzy


    fly_agaric wrote: »
    :confused: I've read and re-read and don't know what you are getting at.
    I doubt people (in Ireland) give much of a shít who exactly developed or produced the vaccine they just want to be vaccinated asap with something that works and is safe. Speaking for myself there anyway...

    All who've read along have been schooled ad nauseum (for much of 3200 or so posts) about the UKs very clever and quick vaccine contract signers and their govts' hands-on work with AZ on getting their domestic vaccine production up & running + making sure no one else can snaffle any prematurely.

    If there is something "real" found to be going on here, seems to me it is far more likely something in the EU supply (or batches etc) and that can provide another opportunity for Brexit Believers to feel all smug & warm inside! :)

    The UK weren't very clever. It was basic procurement.

    They made a reasonable attempt and it paid off.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,518 ✭✭✭fly_agaric


    Danzy wrote: »
    The UK weren't very clever. It was basic procurement.

    If you say so. That wasn't impression I got from what some others had posted.

    edit: e.g. https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=116396192&postcount=2618

    In fairness to the UK, it is a fact there's not very many countries on Earth who have administered as much Covid-19 vaccine. A large part of that success is exclusive domestic production. I was also told earlier on thread this was set up very quickly and there was no capacity whatsoever to produce such vaccines at scale in the UK 1 year ago. Is that incorrect?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,912 ✭✭✭Danno


    That is a very good point. You can't mix or match as I think the others are the RNA vaccines. So there are 2 options.

    A) Is give the 2nd dose
    B) is give the full treatment of another.

    I think they are hoping it will only be a week at best before an answer is known

    Surely those who had no health issues after dose 1 should be fine for dose 2?

    Thats presuming that the few issues in Norway were after the first dose?


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,722 ✭✭✭✭Strazdas


    fly_agaric wrote: »
    If you say so. That wasn't impression I got from what some others had posted.

    edit: e.g. https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=116396192&postcount=2618

    In fairness to the UK, it is a fact there's not very many countries on Earth who have administered as much Covid-19 vaccine. A large part of that success is exclusive domestic production. I was also told earlier on thread this was set up very quickly and there was no capacity whatsoever to produce such vaccines at scale in the UK 1 year ago. Is that incorrect?

    I believe the numbers are a lot smaller than they are admitting - I've heard that only 11m AZ doses have been given and quite a few of these were imported from the EU.


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