General Star Trek thread

breezy1985 · 14-03-2021 10:40AM

silverharp wrote: »

bad writing was only a symptom of a bad strategy. They didnt like Trek so they wanted to make a Game of Trek Wars, wasnt going to end well. Had there been a Roddenberry AI that had creative control, it would had rejected all this nonsense.

there is a nice little clip here from the actress behind Dr Pulaski from 1:17, its less than a minute long but sums up nicely the Roddenberry ethos with some cheeky contrast inserts from Klutzman Trek

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vPGz7Lb5eBU

All that Gene knows the ship stuff is BS in fairness as is a lot of the **** over Genes vision but one thing its gets spot on is that everyone seems to have forgotten the stun setting on phasers. No problem with drilling a mans eye or any violence but I am sick of seeing people vaporised for the sake of it when we all know stun exists.

Evade · 14-03-2021 11:01AM

TNG has a Somalian character in the main cast and TOS has someone most likely from a country in eastern Africa.

I think Voyager has the most American crew, aliens aside, of all the Star Treks.

Stark · 14-03-2021 11:03AM

I'd avoid leaning towards originalism and going with the narrative that if Roddenberry was alive and in full control, things would be perfect. There's a lot of great Trek that went against Roddenberry's vision and wishes. DS9 being the primary example. He also tried to shoot down great TNG episodes like "Family" and was thankfully overruled.

breezy1985 · 14-03-2021 11:09AM

Evade wrote: »

TNG has a Somalian character in the main cast and TOS has someone most likely from a country in eastern Africa.

I think Voyager has the most American crew, aliens aside, of all the Star Treks.

Ya but they were "African" not African. DS9 is the only one where the characters are played by a cast from the country they are actually from

Rawr · 14-03-2021 11:11AM

Stark wrote: »

I'd avoid leaning towards originalism and going with the narrative that if Roddenberry was alive and in full control, things would be perfect. There's a lot of great Trek that went against Roddenberry's vision and wishes. DS9 being the primary example. He also tried to shoot down great TNG episodes like "Family" and was thankfully overruled.

Kind of feeds into my own feeling that Roddenberry was both a credit to Trek as creator and creative force behind the early years of the franchise, but also a bit of a mill-stone around the neck of where the series could potentially go. I do feel that a lot of good Trek did dare to depart from the formula that Roddenberry often enforced in early TNG before he died. As mentioned, DS9 did this well.

I myself am not as much a purest when it comes to new Trek's relation to "Roddenberry's vision". I generally don't mind as long as what is made of Trek is any good. That ultimately is my objection to the likes of Discovery, which took Trek and did something very lack-luster with it.

pixelburp · 14-03-2021 11:11AM

Evade wrote: »

TNG has a Somalian character in the main cast and TOS has someone most likely from a country in eastern Africa.

I think Voyager has the most American crew, aliens aside, of all the Star Treks.

Ah, no they didnt, not in any meaningful sense of it being a postcard summary of character. Scotty, for all his bad accent and cliché, was definitely not meant to be American. Ditto Chekhov. Same with Picard, again despite contrivance. Uhuru and LeForge never once suggested any regional variance in behaviour, character or just accents. Which as we saw in the show was how they differentiated that kind of thing, alongside national stereotypes.

If a character spoke with an American accent, they were an American. And as said, TOS was meant to be a representation of America as the lodestone for globalism, rather than a true Community of Nations that a Fed bridge should be.

Rawr · 14-03-2021 11:14AM

breezy1985 wrote: »

Ya but they were "African" not African. DS9 is the only one where the characters are played by a cast from the country they are actually from

Dr. Bashir was supposed to be English, wasn't he? I always liked the idea that DS9's Englishman and Irishman were best buddies. Sort of worked against any stereotype of animosity that an American audience might have assumed.

breezy1985 · 14-03-2021 11:21AM

Rawr wrote: »

Dr. Bashir was supposed to be English, wasn't he? I always liked the idea that DS9's Englishman and Irishman were best buddies. Sort of worked against any stereotype of animosity that an American audience might have assumed.

Not sure it is ever said out loud but ya I think he was. The only miscasting DS9 done was having a Dub play a Kerryman, surprised Jacky Healy-Rae never brought it up in the Dail

Evade · 14-03-2021 11:29AM

pixelburp wrote: »

Uhuru and LeForge never once suggested any regional variance in behaviour, character or just accents.

How exactly does someone act Somalian or east African?

breezy1985 · 14-03-2021 11:34AM

Evade wrote: »

How exactly does someone act Somalian or east African?

By getting a Somalian or East African to play them.

Same way that O'Brien is a way better depiction of an Irish person than all the Oirish on US TV

Evade · 14-03-2021 11:43AM

breezy1985 wrote: »

By getting a Somalian or East African to play them.

Completely disagree. This is one is the worst ideas to crop up in the last few years and defeats the point of being an actor.

breezy1985 · 14-03-2021 12:05PM

Evade wrote: »

Completely disagree. This is one is the worst ideas to crop up in the last few years and defeats the point of being an actor.

So you think O'Brien would have been as good if played by Tom Cruise or some other yank

helimachoptor · 14-03-2021 12:10PM

breezy1985 wrote: »

So you think O'Brien would have been as good if played by Tom Cruise or some other yank

at least they didnt get Colin Farrell..

imo, O'Brien for me had incredible depth as character and he was very normal (from an Irish perspective) . I think we identify with him a lot which is natural, but even from American friends they love the character.

Meaney appeared in the 2nd most amount of episodes.

pixelburp · 14-03-2021 12:12PM

Evade wrote: »

How exactly does someone act Somalian or east African?

If we're sticking to the times TOS was made? Same way they differentiated Scotty or Checkov. Either with a generic "African" accent - no different to irish, Scottish, French or other stereotyped voices acceptable then - or an attempt at a regional brogue, if the actor was feeling particularly empathic towards accuracy. Tricky in 1960s America I'd imagine. But this wasn't done cos "she's a black American" was Uhuru's total persona, and given the time was transformative enough.

Saying she was Somali is gilding the lilly and like, ok, she could be from the moon for all it mattered in Nicholes performance, as to be irrelevant to the point. Trek is an American show, its ships staffed with American actors. Except for the occasional time it threw in a Brit or generic Euro character. Or O'Brien, whose nationality was worn on his sleeve, local cursing n all.

Actually, scratch some of that. Half of American TV is made up of Canadians and Brits putting on US accents, so without checking Discos cast it might get even muddier :pac:

TheValeyard · 14-03-2021 12:14PM

I'd like to see Liam Neeson as an Admiral. But he'd probably turn out to be evil.

Evade · 14-03-2021 12:21PM

breezy1985 wrote: »

So you think O'Brien would have been as good if played by Tom Cruise or some other yank

I think he would have been as good if the American was as good an actor as Meaney.

Evade · 14-03-2021 12:39PM

pixelburp wrote: »

If we're sticking to the times TOS was made? Same way they differentiated Scotty or Checkov. Either with a generic "African" accent - no different to irish, Scottish, French or other stereotyped voices acceptable then - or an attempt at a regional brogue, if the actor was feeling particularly empathic towards accuracy. Tricky in 1960s America I'd imagine. But this wasn't done cos "she's a black American" was Uhuru's total persona, and given the time was transformative enough.

Saying she was Somali is gilding the lilly and like, ok, she could be from the moon for all it mattered in Nicholes performance, as to be irrelevant to the point. Trek is an American show, its ships staffed with American actors. Except for the occasional time it threw in a Brit or generic Euro character. Or O'Brien, whose nationality was worn on his sleeve, local cursing n all.

Actually, scratch some of that. Half of American TV is made up of Canadians and Brits putting on US accents, so without checking Discos cast it might get even muddier :pac:

I'll accept both of them could have had a slight accent to reinforce it, then again people can have a second or third language without their native accent showing through, but I was more curious what "regional behaviour" is.

EDIT: LaForge did ululate at Worf's promotion which I suppose would be a regional behaviour.

pixelburp · 14-03-2021 12:53PM

Evade wrote: »

I'll accept both of them could have had a slight accent to reinforce it, then again people can have a second or third language without their native accent showing through, but I was more curious what "regional behaviour" is.

Just a clutch of any number of on-screen cues that Character X is from another part of the world that isn't America; which in Scotty's case was every possible Scottish behavioural stereotype imaginable. So to Uhura, and going by the example shown by Code of Honor, it's probably just as well they didn't ask the same of her to hit "generic African cultural markers" (still seen to this day with stuff like Coming to[2] America Black Panther), as we'd probably not be talking of TOS in the same praiseworthy breath.

Trek was never especially nuanced when it came to nationality or culture TBH, and given Patrick Stewart's apparent lineage; talking of second or third languages feels like a fudge to a reality: Star Trek is an American show, with an American audience, and American views of "the world". There's nothing wrong with that, I just don't see the sense in twisting into knots to add non-existent backstory to Uhura or LeForge

But none of this happened so Memory Alpha may say she was Somalian, but based purely on what we saw on the screen, she was American. And based on her cultural importance, enough to stop her walking from the part, she was American.

breezy1985 · 14-03-2021 12:56PM

Evade wrote: »

I think he would have been as good if the American was as good an actor as Meaney.

All evidence I have ever seen would tell me that there are only 2 outcomes.
Either he does an accent and would be laughed at for the rest of time as another Oirish character
Or
He plays it straight like Burton does with his African character and the world assumes he is an Irish-American character.

Can't think of an American who ever got playing an Irish character right.

I'm perfectly fine with Burton playing an African character or Stewart playing a French one but I won't ever remember them as anything other than the English captain and his American engineer

Evade · 14-03-2021 01:04PM

pixelburp wrote: »

But none of this happened so Memory Alpha may say she was Somalian, but based purely on what we saw on the screen, she was American. And based on her cultural importance, enough to stop her walking from the part, she was American.

Based on on screen information it's almost certain she wasn't American. In Changeling when she was recovering her memories after being mind wiped she defaulted to speaking Swahili so it's a reasonable inference she was from somewhere in east Africa.

Also, LaForge was the Somalian, Uhura most likely wan't, though a Swahili dialect is spoken by a very small group of Somalians.

breezy1985 · 14-03-2021 01:12PM

Evade wrote: »

Based on on screen information it's almost certain she wasn't American. In Changeling when she was recovering her memories after being mind wiped she defaulted to speaking Swahili so it's a reasonable inference she was from somewhere in east Africa.

Also, LaForge was the Somalian, Uhura most likely wan't, though a Swahili dialect is spoken by a very small group of Somalians.

I never picked up on that scene from Changeling and haven't seen it in ages thb. Nice story about it here

https://m.imdb.com/title/tt0708454/trivia

pixelburp · 14-03-2021 01:18PM

Evade wrote: »

Based on on screen information it's almost certain she wasn't American. In Changeling when she was recovering her memories after being mind wiped she defaulted to speaking Swahili so it's a reasonable inference she was from somewhere in east Africa.

Also, LaForge was the Somalian, Uhura most likely wan't, though a Swahili dialect is spoken by a very small group of Somalians.

I'll take your exacting answer deferring to superior Trekkiness but TBH based on the sum total of what amounted to Uhura's character, it wasn't as well defined as it could have been, and absolutely stick to the original point.

Evade · 14-03-2021 01:31PM

breezy1985 wrote: »

Can't think of an American who ever got playing an Irish character right.

Honestly neither can I, I can think of a few non Americans who can, but I think a sufficiently skilled and motivated American actor could.

pixelburp · 14-03-2021 01:52PM

What I find weird is that often, UK and Irish actors have no trouble pulling an American accent - and I'm not aware of locals snarking at them either - while the reverse almost never applies, Americans utterly incapable of mimicking convincing euro accents. Wonder why that is, if it's down to each country's respective acting schools and methodologies. Or simply our exposure to American culture is so high it's easy to glom onto the accent. Like I said, here we all are, obsessed with an American show

breezy1985 · 14-03-2021 01:59PM

pixelburp wrote: »

What I find weird is that often, UK and Irish actors have no trouble pulling an American accent - and I'm not aware of locals snarking at them either - while the reverse almost never applies, Americans utterly incapable of mimicking convincing euro accents. Wonder why that is, if it's down to each country's respective acting schools and methodologies. Or simply our exposure to American culture is so high it's easy to glom onto the accent. Like I said, here we all are, obsessed with an American show

I'm sure an American probably could do it if they took the time and we're open-minded enough to realize we are not like Irish Americans or the backwards Paddy you see on Wild Mountain Thyme.
Problem is the likes of Tom Cruise really thought they had nailed it

Markitron · 15-03-2021 08:33AM

The only examples I have seen of non-Irish people doing convincing Irish accents are Meryl Streep, Cate Blanchett and Brad Pitt (In Snatch not that awful IRA movie).

silverharp · 15-03-2021 09:14AM

accents dont bother me in Sifi, a US show will be US accents, a British show they will oddly do British accents shocker. If anything the Expanse approach is a bit too try hard

GreeBo · 15-03-2021 09:33AM

silverharp wrote: »

accents dont bother me in Sifi, a US show will be US accents, a British show they will oddly do British accents shocker. If anything the Expanse approach is a bit too try hard

I do find the Belter accents hard work, often takes me out of it as I trying to work out what they said but the scene has moved on!

silverharp · 15-03-2021 09:43AM

GreeBo wrote: »

I do find the Belter accents hard work, often takes me out of it as I trying to work out what they said but the scene has moved on!

i watched a lot of pirate shows before :pac:

pixelburp · 15-03-2021 09:56AM

The belter accents and language are simply ripped from the books, a new patois that formed from the natural patchwork quilt that formed the various stations and asteroids. Was a nice acknowledgement that language changes through circumstance; cos of course it has and always will ("panglish" is a good example of that happening right now in, I think, China) If you read the books, belter comes across more blatantly, seeing bits of French, German, Cantonese etc etc. mixed into things.

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