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Next%- the ongoing debate

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  • Nike Viperfly sprint spikes shelved

    Nike ‘super shoe’ shelved over fears they could have undermined Bolt’s legacy

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/nike-super-shoe-shelved-over-fears-they-could-have-undermined-bolts-legacy-6wv9wcdms

    buymeacoffee.com/glassopy





  • That headline makes it sound like Nike withdrew the shoes voluntarily. I've seen several versions of that article, all with a suspiciously similar spin. If the shoe is being withdrawn, isn't it far more likely that it was about to be banned? Meanwhile, it is still featured on the company's website.




  • glasso wrote: »
    Nike Viperfly sprint spikes shelved

    Nike ‘super shoe’ shelved over fears they could have undermined Bolt’s legacy

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/nike-super-shoe-shelved-over-fears-they-could-have-undermined-bolts-legacy-6wv9wcdms

    Why would Nike care as Bolt was a Puma runner so if anything Nike would prefer to break his records




  • SeeMoreBut wrote: »
    Why would Nike care as Bolt was a Puma runner so if anything Nike would prefer to break his records

    It was most likely not going to be approved
    Nike has shelved a “super shoe” for sprinters after rival manufacturers expressed fears that they would allow an inferior athlete to wipe out Usain Bolt’s world records.

    The Nike Zoom Air Viperfly was launched 12 months ago with the sportswear giant claiming that it represented “a new paradigm of performance on the track”. It also said that the spikes were “designed specifically for the 100 metres, the truest test of pure human speed”.

    Nike designed the Viperfly by borrowing technology from its record-breaking road-racing shoes, and its arrival caused widespread concern among other manufacturers, not least after one shoe company reported startling results from testing the spikes with a group of sprinters. It led to fears that the legacy of Bolt, who ran his world records over 100m and 200m in Puma spikes, could be undermined by advances in technology that have sparked serious debate across the sport.

    The shoe is understood to have been tested by Christian Coleman. The American, who set his personal best of 9.76sec when winning gold at the 2019 World Championships, was rated the world’s fastest man before he was banned last October for missing three drugs tests. Bolt’s world-record time stands at 9.58.

    The shoe was due for release last summer but that did not materialise. It was never put forward to World Athletics for approval and was not on the list of approved shoes published by the sport’s global governing body last August. Experts have told The Times that the shoe may not have met the new criteria for approval amid concerns that its spike plate was acting as a secondary spring.

    According to Nike, the forefoot “Air Zoom unit” has been designed to provide responsiveness and energy to sprinters, particularly over the last 20 metres of the race.

    Sources have indicated that a revised version of the Viperfly could yet appear before the Tokyo Olympic Games this summer.

    Bolt set his 100m record at the 2009 World Championships in Berlin and broke the world record for the 200m at the same meeting with a time of 19.19. He also holds the record for the fastest 4x100m relay, running 36.84 with Nesta Carter, Michael Frater and Yohan Blake to win gold for Jamaica at the 2012 Olympics in London.

    Last year, World Athletics invited manufacturers to join scientists and other experts in forming a working group on athletics shoes.

    Nike, which has led the way with its revolutionary Vaporfly road shoes, has been able to produce a track shoe for longer distances that complies with the new rules. These spikes, which feature a sole as deep as 25mm, have been worn by athletes who have set some remarkable times indoors this winter.

    By the summer, most manufacturers should be offering a spike to rival Nike’s, which should at least establish a level playing field for athletes who wear different brands. On the road this has happened, with records falling to runners in shoes made by other manufacturers.

    Elliot Giles, the Birmingham runner, broke Sebastian Coe’s 38-year-old British indoor 800m record this week wearing the latest Nike shoe. The 26-year-old, who clocked 1:43.63 to move second on the all-time indoor list behind Wilson Kipketer, said it was an “insult” to suggest that his achievement was solely down to the shoes.

    World Athletics officials are working on introducing a further dimension to the rules that focuses on energy return from shoe technology. The proposal is, however, said to be meeting resistance from manufacturers who argue that such limits could hinder innovation.

    Nike has been approached for comment.

    buymeacoffee.com/glassopy





  • I don't think anyone suggested that he broke the 38 yr "solely" down to the shoes. Of course not, but all it needs is a few seconds.


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  • I don't think anyone suggested that he broke the 38 yr "solely" down to the shoes. Of course not, but all it needs is a few seconds.

    on longer distance tests it's reckoned that the gain is up to 2% for the runners who the tech most benefits so it that translates to middle distance then that could be up to 2 seconds for 800m

    they reckoned the Viperfly spikes could take up to 0.3 of a second off the men's 100m time

    so that could have somebody running 9.85 seconds "normally" besting Bolt's 9.58

    buymeacoffee.com/glassopy





  • https://www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/2021/feb/22/super-spikes-seismic-shift-athletics-track-nike-air-zoom-victory-tokyo-olympics

    "Don't mention the war spikes"

    seems to be the runners' stance
    Another Briton, Marc Scott, attributed beating his 10,000m PB by 46 seconds – which moved him above Dave Bedford and Brendan Foster in the all-time list – to “training hard and smart for years”. When the TV commentator Tim Hutchings suggested the spikes were also a factor, Scott told him to “give some credit where it’s due rather than consistently nag about the shoe technology”.

    It all amounts to a curious omerta – a case of “don’t mention the spikes” – from Nike and New Balance athletes who have benefited most from the technology. “Normally you’re asked by your sponsor to give a sales pitch, and it often seems so fake and contrived,” says Willis. “And here’s your one opportunity to really preach about it. Yet they don’t.”

    Willis, who works for the high-end running brand Tracksmith, knows why athletes are staying silent. “It takes away the credit for your own role and improved performance,” he says.

    buymeacoffee.com/glassopy





  • https://youtu.be/9FFMZdfizTU

    Some local knowledge on the SAUCONY range......




  • Got my Endorphin Pros a couple of weeks ago. Really impressed with them. The effort it takes to reach a certain pace in the Endorphins feels noticeably less than in my Asics/Brooks. It's far from conclusive evidence but heart rate data from identical recent runs shows lower effort expended in the Endorphin Pros.

    I went out at the weekend and knocked 50 odd seconds off my 5k PB in them bringing me within about 10 seconds of my sub 20 target. I have been upping my mileage so i'm not putting this solely down to the Endorphins but I definitely think they helped.

    Negatives would be that they don't feel very secure at the heel probably because of how minimal the upper is. I wore them on an easy 10k and had pains in my shins the next day.

    They are my first Carbon Plates shoes so I can't compare to any others on the market. I was a bit skeptical and bought them out of curiosity more than anything else but very happy with the purchase now and would recommend.




  • Ive seriously upped my mileage in February, done 163 miles. Mainly all by HR and had no real goal in mind. Going to go out tomorrow and run a 5k in my endorphin speeds (havent worn them yet) to see how much it has helped me.


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  • So went out for the first time in them.

    Ran a 39s PB in my 5k, down to 20:41. Over the moon.
    I did a warm up in them and felt very easy, looked at my watch and was at 08:00 min miles, that was a shock as I would have thought about 09:00. It was tough, no doubt about it but I feel fine now, calves a bit sore but nothing major.

    I did 1 speedwork session in the month and that was just 1m warm up, 4 miles at 07:30, 1m warm down.

    Of course you need to do the work and the training, they arent magic but definitely help.

    I have the Saucony Endorphin Speeds




  • Got the Hoka One One Carbon 2 and Saucony Endorphin Speed.

    Subjective analysis is a win for the Saucony.

    The Saucony speed roll encourages a slightly more forward leaning gait. This is good but it means your muscles will be used in slightly different way.

    Dont do all runs in them at first.

    Not a bad time to look at improving your running form, making it more hip dominated as these shoes will help with that.

    Hips forward and imagine pushing a heavy shopping trolley in front of you (push the legs out powerfully behind you). Handy visualization and cue for your next steady/tempo run to use with these shoes.




  • event wrote: »
    Ive seriously upped my mileage in February, done 163 miles. Mainly all by HR and had no real goal in mind. Going to go out tomorrow and run a 5k in my endorphin speeds (havent worn them yet) to see how much it has helped me.


    Would you not be tempted to run the 5k in your normal shoes just to have a better picture on how much you might have progressed? I went for 5kn TT last October but I stayed in my Clifton 7s rather than the Next% beacuse I knew the Next% would have given me an extra 5-10 seconds.

    But then again you can work that the other way too...5km now in the Endorphin and then again in a few months.




  • Would you not be tempted to run the 5k in your normal shoes just to have a better picture on how much you might have progressed? I went for 5kn TT last October but I stayed in my Clifton 7s rather than the Next% beacuse I knew the Next% would have given me an extra 5-10 seconds.

    But then again you can work that the other way too...5km now in the Endorphin and then again in a few months.

    Yeah I thought of that too. But these are what I will race in so tested with them.

    If I did them in my normal ones, in a few months I would test with the endorphins anyway and see and improvement then




  • Have Zoom Tempo Next% and Endorphin Speed for the last 4 months.

    Tempos give me around 10sec/km on my threshold runs - 4:10 vs 4:20 for the same effort (by feel and by HR). Ran a 5k TT at start of marathon training block in 19:50, whereas I felt like I was in 20:30-21:00 shape. The Tempos are noisy as hell, some slapping noise off the road especially at slower pace. They do seem to help avoid any DOMS after intense efforts, and calves also feel more "relaxed". Not uncomfortable, but my little toes are almost poking out through the fabric so I'd be dubious about going a full marathon in them. Soles seem to be wearing well.

    Endorphin Speed - are comfortable, good snug fit from the solid lacing. Not as fast as Tempos but improvement on my usual Brooks Ghost.. They feel much better on uphills and tight corners. Good thing is that they consistently increase my cadence to around 180 from my usual 170-175. I'm not aware of it while running, but it shows up in the post run data. Would happily wear them for a marathon, keen to try out the Endorphin Pro now!




  • Took about 15 seconds off my 5km a couple of months back. Down to 18.03.

    In some €60 Asics. Not sure of the name.

    It just wouldn't cross my mind to spend €200 on runners. I'm an average 5km runner. I had upped mileage to about 100km a week. That was all. Doing a lot of hills at the moment preparing for a long outing in May so might try another fast 5km soon to see how that affects it.




  • Conor74 wrote: »
    Took about 15 seconds off my 5km a couple of months back. Down to 18.03.

    In some €60 Asics. Not sure of the name.

    It just wouldn't cross my mind to spend €200 on runners. I'm an average 5km runner. I had upped mileage to about 100km a week. That was all. Doing a lot of hills at the moment preparing for a long outing in May so might try another fast 5km soon to see how that affects it.

    Yes, TBH I would rather better my 5k/10k PB in my regular shoes so that I know I have really improved - however come race day, I'd prefer not to be giving 30 secs or more advantage to others in my age group!




  • Conor74 wrote: »
    Took about 15 seconds off my 5km a couple of months back. Down to 18.03.

    In some €60 Asics. Not sure of the name.

    It just wouldn't cross my mind to spend €200 on runners. I'm an average 5km runner. I had upped mileage to about 100km a week. That was all. Doing a lot of hills at the moment preparing for a long outing in May so might try another fast 5km soon to see how that affects it.

    What a bizarre input. Do you comment on a lot of threads on products to tell people you wouldn't consider buying them?




    1. Yevon wrote: »
      What a bizarre input. Do you comment on a lot of threads on products to tell people you wouldn't consider buying them?

      Well the title is "debate". His opinion is very valid in terms of input :D

      Positive and negative opinions are always worth listening to in my opinion.


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    3. Nobody on this thread has contended that the primary way of achieving better running times is better training. Which seems to be the crux of that post and not any assessment or critique of the trainers.
      Along with a very smug assessment of time achieved with cheap trainers they cant even remember the name of. Condescending in the extreme.




    4. Yevon wrote: »
      Nobody on this thread has contended that the primary way of achieving better running times is better training. Which seems to be the crux of that post and not any assessment or critique of the trainers.
      Along with a very smug assessment of time achieved with cheap trainers they cant even remember the name of. Condescending in the extreme.

      There was a critique on the price. The benefits of the shoe are not worth the cost in his opinion.

      I didn't read anything smug or condescending about the post.

      I don't know Conor's intentions, I'll let him answer. I find it bizarre that you would find his post bizarre.

      I have the 4% versions myself. They would prob give Conor a nice 10 second improvement based on his current best. But that doesn't seem to interest him, and thats his right.




    5. There was a critique on the price. The benefits of the shoe are not worth the cost in his opinion.

      I didn't read anything smug or condescending about the post.

      I don't know Conor's intentions, I'll let him answer. I find it bizarre that you would find his post bizarre.

      I have the 4% versions myself. They would prob give Conor a nice 10 second improvement based on his current best. But that doesn't seem to interest him, and thats his right.

      I agree I think the shoes are worth 2 to 5 sec per mile depending on a runners gait. I dont get the fuss about price though. In terms of value this type of improvement aid in any other sport would cost more.




    6. Yevon wrote: »
      Nobody on this thread has contended that the primary way of achieving better running times is better training. Which seems to be the crux of that post and not any assessment or critique of the trainers.
      Along with a very smug assessment of time achieved with cheap trainers they cant even remember the name of. Condescending in the extreme.

      What a bizarre input. Do you comment on a lot of threads to psychoanalyse posters?

      I'm amused you think your analysis of me is somehow more on topic than the pros and cons of types of runners. But if you think my cost benefit analysis is really unacceptable, don't get mad, report it.

      I've gone back through my post to see what could have annoyed you, and nope, won't be changing one word. I did check the Asics for you, they're Gel Pulse 11.




    7. ultrapercy wrote: »
      I agree I think the shoes are worth 2 to 5 sec per mile depending on a runners gait. I dont get the fuss about price though. In terms of value this type of improvement aid in any other sport would cost more.

      The €200 price tag is a big consideration for me. It rules them out. That of course is a subjective call for each person. If I thought €100 might get me the sub 18, I'd consider it.

      But more so, if I can drop 15 seconds in a 5km in any old runners, clearly I wasn't optimising my training. Even if I had decided to spend that much, I think I would have zeroed in on the wrong thing.




    8. Probably bit of topic here. Can a pair of runners effect your hamstrings? I recently changed and now have a niggle in mine. Altough i have upped my pace recently knocking good times off my 5k 10k and half.. or could someome recomend runners for tight hamstrings..




    9. Conor74 wrote: »
      The €200 price tag is a big consideration for me. It rules them out. That of course is a subjective call for each person. If I thought €100 might get me the sub 18, I'd consider it.

      But more so, if I can drop 15 seconds in a 5km in any old runners, clearly I wasn't optimising my training. Even if I had decided to spend that much, I think I would have zeroed in on the wrong thing.

      €200? Vaporfly lists at €275. Hard to get for less with the limited quantities they seem to release. Can get lucky in a sale, if you’re not a popular size, I suppose.




    10. Murph_D wrote: »
      €200? Vaporfly lists at €275. Hard to get for less with the limited quantities they seem to release. Can get lucky in a sale, if you’re not a popular size, I suppose.

      Birthday month discount on the Nike app :) 25% makes a decent enough dint in the price....Some runners have even been known to have as many, if not more, birthdays than HRH Queen of England herself.




    11. healy1835 wrote: »
      Birthday month discount on the Nike app :) 25% makes a decent enough dint in the price....Some runners have even been known to have as many, if not more, birthdays than HRH Queen of England herself.

      They seem to have cottoned on to that trick (or else I’m just not clearing my cookies properly!)

      I have the birthday discount available at the moment but still plenty of wear left in my existing pair, that have only been raced once.


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    13. Murph_D wrote: »
      They seem to have cottoned on to that trick (or else I’m just not clearing my cookies properly!)

      I have the birthday discount available at the moment but still plenty of wear left in my existing pair, that have only been raced once.

      Well there's another healy1835 in Newbridge that still lives with his parents...... :) to be fair the discount comes in handy for other items as well. But if you're planning on getting a pair of Next% it's a no-brainer.


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