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Next%- the ongoing debate

partyguinness

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2020/sep/30/eliud-kipchoge-denies-platform-nike-shoes-offer-london-race-advantage

I have a pair and yes they absolutely give me faster times. I guess they are fair as long as everyone else wear them!

I wear them sparingly. I have them just over 12 months and probably worn them 4-5 times. I wore them for 2 Parkruns on New Years day just gone and then again about 2 weeks ago just for a cheeky 60min run.

I have run them same 10k route probably 14-15 times in the past 4 months in Clifton 6 Hokas. It is flat and on a cycle path. With the Next% I ran it on average 10-15 seconds per km quicker and without feeling it. In fact I ran a 44min 10 KM which included the 10 minutes of a w/u and c/d.

Rather than a standard Wednesday evening steady 60 min run if I had rocked up to a 10k roadrace with gameface on I would have obliterated my 10k PB down to 40min.

Yes of course you still have to get and run but anyone who says they do not give an advantage is in dream land.

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partyguinness

I don't think anyone suggested that he broke the 38 yr "solely" down to the shoes. Of course not, but all it needs is a few seconds.

[Deleted User]

partyguinness wrote: »

I don't think anyone suggested that he broke the 38 yr "solely" down to the shoes. Of course not, but all it needs is a few seconds.

on longer distance tests it's reckoned that the gain is up to 2% for the runners who the tech most benefits so it that translates to middle distance then that could be up to 2 seconds for 800m

they reckoned the Viperfly spikes could take up to 0.3 of a second off the men's 100m time

so that could have somebody running 9.85 seconds "normally" besting Bolt's 9.58

[Deleted User]

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/2021/feb/22/super-spikes-seismic-shift-athletics-track-nike-air-zoom-victory-tokyo-olympics

"Don't mention the war spikes"

seems to be the runners' stance

Another Briton, Marc Scott, attributed beating his 10,000m PB by 46 seconds – which moved him above Dave Bedford and Brendan Foster in the all-time list – to “training hard and smart for years”. When the TV commentator Tim Hutchings suggested the spikes were also a factor, Scott told him to “give some credit where it’s due rather than consistently nag about the shoe technology”.

It all amounts to a curious omerta – a case of “don’t mention the spikes” – from Nike and New Balance athletes who have benefited most from the technology. “Normally you’re asked by your sponsor to give a sales pitch, and it often seems so fake and contrived,” says Willis. “And here’s your one opportunity to really preach about it. Yet they don’t.”

Willis, who works for the high-end running brand Tracksmith, knows why athletes are staying silent. “It takes away the credit for your own role and improved performance,” he says.

Ross Runner

https://youtu.be/9FFMZdfizTU

Some local knowledge on the SAUCONY range......

event

Ive seriously upped my mileage in February, done 163 miles. Mainly all by HR and had no real goal in mind. Going to go out tomorrow and run a 5k in my endorphin speeds (havent worn them yet) to see how much it has helped me.

event

So went out for the first time in them.

Ran a 39s PB in my 5k, down to 20:41. Over the moon.
I did a warm up in them and felt very easy, looked at my watch and was at 08:00 min miles, that was a shock as I would have thought about 09:00. It was tough, no doubt about it but I feel fine now, calves a bit sore but nothing major.

I did 1 speedwork session in the month and that was just 1m warm up, 4 miles at 07:30, 1m warm down.

Of course you need to do the work and the training, they arent magic but definitely help.

I have the Saucony Endorphin Speeds

demfad

Got the Hoka One One Carbon 2 and Saucony Endorphin Speed.

Subjective analysis is a win for the Saucony.

The Saucony speed roll encourages a slightly more forward leaning gait. This is good but it means your muscles will be used in slightly different way.

Dont do all runs in them at first.

Not a bad time to look at improving your running form, making it more hip dominated as these shoes will help with that.

Hips forward and imagine pushing a heavy shopping trolley in front of you (push the legs out powerfully behind you). Handy visualization and cue for your next steady/tempo run to use with these shoes.

partyguinness

event wrote: »

Ive seriously upped my mileage in February, done 163 miles. Mainly all by HR and had no real goal in mind. Going to go out tomorrow and run a 5k in my endorphin speeds (havent worn them yet) to see how much it has helped me.

Would you not be tempted to run the 5k in your normal shoes just to have a better picture on how much you might have progressed? I went for 5kn TT last October but I stayed in my Clifton 7s rather than the Next% beacuse I knew the Next% would have given me an extra 5-10 seconds.

But then again you can work that the other way too...5km now in the Endorphin and then again in a few months.

event

partyguinness wrote: »

Would you not be tempted to run the 5k in your normal shoes just to have a better picture on how much you might have progressed? I went for 5kn TT last October but I stayed in my Clifton 7s rather than the Next% beacuse I knew the Next% would have given me an extra 5-10 seconds.

But then again you can work that the other way too...5km now in the Endorphin and then again in a few months.

Yeah I thought of that too. But these are what I will race in so tested with them.

If I did them in my normal ones, in a few months I would test with the endorphins anyway and see and improvement then

opus

https://twitter.com/FloTrack/status/1367554184866791430

Jakey Rolling

Have Zoom Tempo Next% and Endorphin Speed for the last 4 months.

Tempos give me around 10sec/km on my threshold runs - 4:10 vs 4:20 for the same effort (by feel and by HR). Ran a 5k TT at start of marathon training block in 19:50, whereas I felt like I was in 20:30-21:00 shape. The Tempos are noisy as hell, some slapping noise off the road especially at slower pace. They do seem to help avoid any DOMS after intense efforts, and calves also feel more "relaxed". Not uncomfortable, but my little toes are almost poking out through the fabric so I'd be dubious about going a full marathon in them. Soles seem to be wearing well.

Endorphin Speed - are comfortable, good snug fit from the solid lacing. Not as fast as Tempos but improvement on my usual Brooks Ghost.. They feel much better on uphills and tight corners. Good thing is that they consistently increase my cadence to around 180 from my usual 170-175. I'm not aware of it while running, but it shows up in the post run data. Would happily wear them for a marathon, keen to try out the Endorphin Pro now!

[Deleted User]

Took about 15 seconds off my 5km a couple of months back. Down to 18.03.

In some €60 Asics. Not sure of the name.

It just wouldn't cross my mind to spend €200 on runners. I'm an average 5km runner. I had upped mileage to about 100km a week. That was all. Doing a lot of hills at the moment preparing for a long outing in May so might try another fast 5km soon to see how that affects it.

Jakey Rolling

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Took about 15 seconds off my 5km a couple of months back. Down to 18.03.

In some €60 Asics. Not sure of the name.

It just wouldn't cross my mind to spend €200 on runners. I'm an average 5km runner. I had upped mileage to about 100km a week. That was all. Doing a lot of hills at the moment preparing for a long outing in May so might try another fast 5km soon to see how that affects it.

Yes, TBH I would rather better my 5k/10k PB in my regular shoes so that I know I have really improved - however come race day, I'd prefer not to be giving 30 secs or more advantage to others in my age group!

MrMacPhisto

Yevon wrote: »

What a bizarre input. Do you comment on a lot of threads on products to tell people you wouldn't consider buying them?

Well the title is "debate". His opinion is very valid in terms of input

Positive and negative opinions are always worth listening to in my opinion.

MrMacPhisto

Yevon wrote: »

Nobody on this thread has contended that the primary way of achieving better running times is better training. Which seems to be the crux of that post and not any assessment or critique of the trainers.
Along with a very smug assessment of time achieved with cheap trainers they cant even remember the name of. Condescending in the extreme.

There was a critique on the price. The benefits of the shoe are not worth the cost in his opinion.

I didn't read anything smug or condescending about the post.

I don't know Conor's intentions, I'll let him answer. I find it bizarre that you would find his post bizarre.

I have the 4% versions myself. They would prob give Conor a nice 10 second improvement based on his current best. But that doesn't seem to interest him, and thats his right.

ultrapercy

MrMacPhisto wrote: »

There was a critique on the price. The benefits of the shoe are not worth the cost in his opinion.

I didn't read anything smug or condescending about the post.

I don't know Conor's intentions, I'll let him answer. I find it bizarre that you would find his post bizarre.

I have the 4% versions myself. They would prob give Conor a nice 10 second improvement based on his current best. But that doesn't seem to interest him, and thats his right.

I agree I think the shoes are worth 2 to 5 sec per mile depending on a runners gait. I dont get the fuss about price though. In terms of value this type of improvement aid in any other sport would cost more.

[Deleted User]

Yevon wrote: »

Nobody on this thread has contended that the primary way of achieving better running times is better training. Which seems to be the crux of that post and not any assessment or critique of the trainers.
Along with a very smug assessment of time achieved with cheap trainers they cant even remember the name of. Condescending in the extreme.

What a bizarre input. Do you comment on a lot of threads to psychoanalyse posters?

I'm amused you think your analysis of me is somehow more on topic than the pros and cons of types of runners. But if you think my cost benefit analysis is really unacceptable, don't get mad, report it.

I've gone back through my post to see what could have annoyed you, and nope, won't be changing one word. I did check the Asics for you, they're Gel Pulse 11.

[Deleted User]

ultrapercy wrote: »

I agree I think the shoes are worth 2 to 5 sec per mile depending on a runners gait. I dont get the fuss about price though. In terms of value this type of improvement aid in any other sport would cost more.

The €200 price tag is a big consideration for me. It rules them out. That of course is a subjective call for each person. If I thought €100 might get me the sub 18, I'd consider it.

But more so, if I can drop 15 seconds in a 5km in any old runners, clearly I wasn't optimising my training. Even if I had decided to spend that much, I think I would have zeroed in on the wrong thing.

ssshhh123

Probably bit of topic here. Can a pair of runners effect your hamstrings? I recently changed and now have a niggle in mine. Altough i have upped my pace recently knocking good times off my 5k 10k and half.. or could someome recomend runners for tight hamstrings..

Murph_D

[Deleted User] wrote: »

The €200 price tag is a big consideration for me. It rules them out. That of course is a subjective call for each person. If I thought €100 might get me the sub 18, I'd consider it.

But more so, if I can drop 15 seconds in a 5km in any old runners, clearly I wasn't optimising my training. Even if I had decided to spend that much, I think I would have zeroed in on the wrong thing.

€200? Vaporfly lists at €275. Hard to get for less with the limited quantities they seem to release. Can get lucky in a sale, if you’re not a popular size, I suppose.

healy1835

Murph_D wrote: »

€200? Vaporfly lists at €275. Hard to get for less with the limited quantities they seem to release. Can get lucky in a sale, if you’re not a popular size, I suppose.

Birthday month discount on the Nike app

25% makes a decent enough dint in the price....Some runners have even been known to have as many, if not more, birthdays than HRH Queen of England herself.

Murph_D

healy1835 wrote: »

Birthday month discount on the Nike app 25% makes a decent enough dint in the price....Some runners have even been known to have as many, if not more, birthdays than HRH Queen of England herself.

They seem to have cottoned on to that trick (or else I’m just not clearing my cookies properly!)

I have the birthday discount available at the moment but still plenty of wear left in my existing pair, that have only been raced once.

healy1835

Murph_D wrote: »

They seem to have cottoned on to that trick (or else I’m just not clearing my cookies properly!)

I have the birthday discount available at the moment but still plenty of wear left in my existing pair, that have only been raced once.

Well there's another healy1835 in Newbridge that still lives with his parents......

to be fair the discount comes in handy for other items as well. But if you're planning on getting a pair of Next% it's a no-brainer.

Cartman78

I've been following this thread for a while now and have been on the cusp of taking the plunge a few times but I rarely spend more than 85 quid on runners (always wait for sales, discounts etc) so the price tag is a bit off putting.

But I am a member on a certain well known sports equipment website and have a birthday discount looming (and also have a rewards scheme at work that can be handily converted into Nike vouchers) so I'm looking at picking up a pair of Zoom Flys in the not too distant future.

healy1835

For me anyway, I've found that in certain races when I've worn the shoes I haven't felt like I've gone to the well as much as I did in flats. Now I don't know if that's just me being a bit subjective and using a pretty small sample size as I haven't had the chance to race in the shoes over the last 12 months obviously.

During this time I feel like I've improved to the extent that all my PB's are up for grabs when racing does return...but having said that, and I feel like I'm rambling a little and maybe not getting my point across very well, there's time in races where I've maybe held back a little and got comfy in the nice, bouncy rhythm and not attacked as much as I should have. I'm curious if anyone else has had similar experiences.

ultrapercy

healy1835 wrote: »

For me anyway, I've found that in certain races when I've worn the shoes I haven't felt like I've gone to the well as much as I did in flats. Now I don't know if that's just me being a bit subjective and using a pretty small sample size as I haven't had the chance to race in the shoes over the last 12 months obviously.

During this time I feel like I've improved to the extent that all my PB's are up for grabs when racing does return...but having said that, and I feel like I'm rambling a little and maybe not getting my point across very well, there's time in races where I've maybe held back a little and got comfy in the nice, bouncy rhythm and not attacked as much as I should have. I'm curious if anyone else has had similar experiences.

theres something in what you say alright. I think the shoes sort of interfere with the communication line between feet and brain. I think I need a certain level of discomfort to keep a high rythem going, the shoes sort of numb that, a bit like how strong pain killing drugs take away the pain but also take away 'good' feeling.

jamule

I got the pro's on tuesday, first time out today for 8k . Unlike the Nike bouncy things they feel really ordinary, like a pair of standard cushiony shoes. There is no feeling that your going to run any quicker or any different. I still prefer the flats as they just feel better.

For comparison the last 3 8km's have been on the same route with 3 diff pairs of shoes, so good to see a comparison. (there were 2 dodgy K's with interuptions). Not sure which I would call faster but i'm thinking it could be the Nikes, but its not the flats.

HR was lower in the Nikes, but the 1st k had a stoppage.

Cadence is lower in the Nike but the avg ground contact time is far less than the other 2, strangely (?) the flats are more or less the sames as the pros for cadence and ground contact (although when you take out the dodgy dog attack KM they are the same)

Nike % Sauc Flat End Pro Nike % Sauc Flat End Pro Nike % Sauc Flat End Pro Nike % Sauc Flat End Pro
KM Time Time Time HR HR HR Cad Cad Cad Contact Contact Contact
1 00:04:10 00:03:44 00:03:45 145 153 154 178 186 183 223 211 204
2 00:03:44 00:03:46 00:03:40 153 179 168 181 188 184 193 197 204
3 00:03:48 00:03:56 00:03:42 166 176 171 182 185 185 201 207 201
4 00:03:55 00:03:59 00:03:41 169 176 175 181 184 185 201 212 205
5 00:03:41 00:03:58 00:03:52 173 176 178 183 185 185 193 209 213
6 00:03:46 00:03:57 00:04:38 174 176 167 184 184 176 195 211 241
7 00:03:44 00:03:58 00:03:51 173 176 173 182 184 183 194 214 222
8 00:03:29 00:03:57 00:03:42 175 177 175 184 184 184 179 208 211
Total 00:30:17 00:31:15 00:30:51 166 173.625 170.125 181.875 185 183.125 197.375 208.625 212.625

partyguinness

Bloody hell...all these high HRs. Is there something wrong with me...:o

I struggle to get over 150 (142-145 would be normal) on a steady 60-90 minute run. At push at the end of a hard long rep at the end of an interval session I might hit 162-165 but I am blowing up at that stage.

Even last Saturday I had a 3 x 3km reps which hurts. Averaging 3:50 per km I never got above 159 bpm and it was not flat.

The only time my watch shows a 177 or 187 is when there is a temporary glitch with the strap.

Murph_D

partyguinness wrote: »

Bloody hell...all these high HRs. Is there something wrong with me...:o

I struggle to get over 150 (142-145 would be normal) on a steady 60-90 minute run. At push at the end of a hard long rep at the end of an interval session I might hit 162-165 but I am blowing up at that stage.

Even last Saturday I had a 3 x 3km reps which hurts. Averaging 3:50 per km I never got above 159 bpm and it was not flat.

The only time my watch shows a 177 or 187 is when there is a temporary glitch with the strap.

Everyone's max HR is different. It doesn't really mean anything if your max is 200 or 170. With training, your resting HR can be lowered, however, meaning your range is greater.

partyguinness

Murph_D wrote: »

Everyone's max HR is different. It doesn't really mean anything if your max is 200 or 170. With training, your resting HR can be lowered, however, meaning your range is greater.

Oh yeah I get that. It is just interesting to compare but as you say everyone is different.