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Covid 19 Part XXXIII-231,484 ROI(4,610 deaths)116,197 NI (2,107 deaths)(23/03)Read OP

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  • #3662
    Klonker
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,669 ✭✭✭Klonker


    Amirani wrote: »
    That's how deaths have been counted for the whole pandemic, I've no idea how people still don't realise this.

    If Covid is involved, the death will show up in the Covid death figures. If the coroner later concludes that it wasn't Covid-related, it will be denotified. It's very simple.

    Suggesting that these cases should be treated differently is nonsense, and would rightly be criticised as dishonest and manipulation of the numbers.

    Edit: Probably worth adding that it's not NPHET who do the counting, it's public health/HPSC.

    Well I guess this is where some people disagree and I understand your point of view. I think they should of broken from normal protocol and not include those deaths in the figures and specifically the death range. I just feel its a very sensitive situation and an exception should have been made until it could be investigated further.


  • #3663
    Plumbthedepths
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,653 ✭✭✭✭Plumbthedepths


    People know the fear of God has been put into pregnant women by the speculation that Covid can cause stillbirths ( despite all international evidence to the contrary) but defend the willingness of Nphet and the media to do it. Does anyone seriously believe an expectant mother needs to have their desire not to catch Covid heightened.
    Twist and turn all you want but this was handled appallingly by Nphet and in particular RTE.


  • #3664
    Amirani
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,561 Mod ✭✭✭✭Amirani


    Klonker wrote: »
    Well I guess this is where some people disagree and I understand your point of view. I think they should of broken from normal protocol and not include those deaths in the figures and specifically the death range. I just feel its a very sensitive situation and an exception should have been made until it could be investigated further.

    HPSC aren't just going to skip adding deaths to their Infectious Diseases reporting system because it's a bit of a sensitive situation. They have processes to follow, many of which are legally enshrined.

    Given all the clamour for open disclosure, I can't believe we're back to a situation where people are calling for doctors to cover things up and be dishonest so they don't upset some people's sensibilities.

    These deaths are "possible" Covid deaths under public health definitions. They're being treated as that and being reported as that. If people don't want to know about this stuff then they should avoid the news, many of the rest of us want information to be freely available. We've a bad history of cover-ups, so would rather we move away from that.


  • #3665
    Cork2021
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,443 ✭✭✭Cork2021


    Everyone needs a laugh!!

    https://twitter.com/risteardsrep/status/1367920073428643840?s=21


  • #3666
    Plumbthedepths
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,653 ✭✭✭✭Plumbthedepths


    Probes wrote: »
    I feel like people are falling over themselves to criticise Nphet here. It's very possible that Covid increases the risk of stillbirth like other infections do too. I'd say it's quite likely that they are concluding that Covid has been a complication in those births leading to a negative outcome. They don't know how much of a problem it is, if it's worse with Covid or if it's typical of all infections. We are in a fast moving pandemic, we are dealing with variants now too, there is a lot of uncertainty. To criticise them for doing their job in reporting the information and providing recommendations is pretty low.

    https://www.hse.ie/eng/health/immunisation/pubinfo/flu-vaccination/flu-vaccine-pregnancy/

    'It's very possible that Covid increases the risk of stillbirth'
    Your opinion or evidenced based?


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  • #3667
    Amirani
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,561 Mod ✭✭✭✭Amirani


    Plumbthedepths wrote: »
    People know the fear of God has been put into pregnant women by the speculation that Covid can cause stillbirths ( despite all international evidence to the contrary) but defend the willingness of Nphet and the media to do it. Does anyone seriously believe an expectant mother needs to have their desire not to catch Covid heightened.
    Twist and turn all you want but this was handled appallingly by Nphet and in particular RTE.

    The news organisations should not have been running this in the way they were, I agree with you on that. It should not be headline news and should not be used for fearmongering, which is what happened. That's a journalistic standards thing as much as anything else.


  • #3668
    Plumbthedepths
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,653 ✭✭✭✭Plumbthedepths


    Amirani wrote: »
    The news organisations should not have been running this in the way they were, I agree with you on that. It should not be headline news and should not be used for fearmongering, which is what happened. That's a journalistic standards thing as much as anything else.

    The question about the 4 still births was tabled by George Lee (no surprise I 'm of the opinion he was prompted to do so) however I don't pretend for one second think Glynn was unaware of the fear his response would garner.
    Like the other poster we will have to disagree, this unwillingness to criticise Nphet no matter the circumstances seems bizarre to me but so be it.


  • #3669
    podgeandrodge
    Site Banned Posts: 5,975 ✭✭✭podgeandrodge


    seamus wrote: »
    As a rule I only take the morning hospital numbers as gospel (otherwise you'd be on a rollercoaster), but last night's numbers are fantastic.

    Both ICU and hospital numbers appear to be falling at a much faster rate now.

    Admissions have slowed marginally and discharges haven't increased by any huge margin, they remain pretty steady.

    Which suggests that the big impact is being made in hospital-acquired infections. This would indicate that the vaccination of front line staff is having a real impact now. Which basically guarantees that we'll not see the likes of January again. 40% of the hospital infections were acquired in hospital.

    Even 4 weeks out, there's no reason to expect we won't see considerable easing of restrictions from April on. The vaccination of HCW means that even in the event of a big spike or outbreak, it won't snowball within the hospital system itself.
    Elessar wrote: »
    Varadkar has already privately said to FG members that all we'll be getting in April is an increase on the 5km limit, click and collect and the re-opening of construction. So he has already pre-decided regardless of figures that that is all we are getting. Don't get your hopes up.

    I don't get it. Why wouldn't they at least, as Seamus hopes for, that if figures drop there is potential for easing restrictions earlier. Instead, it's continual doom with no "hey lads, if things go better we will ease up earlier".


  • #3670
    Klonker
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,669 ✭✭✭Klonker


    Amirani wrote: »
    HPSC aren't just going to skip adding deaths to their Infectious Diseases reporting system because it's a bit of a sensitive situation. They have processes to follow, many of which are legally enshrined.

    Given all the clamour for open disclosure, I can't believe we're back to a situation where people are calling for doctors to cover things up and be dishonest so they don't upset some people's sensibilities.

    These deaths are "possible" Covid deaths under public health definitions. They're being treated as that and being reported as that. If people don't want to know about this stuff then they should avoid the news, many of the rest of us want information to be freely available. We've a bad history of cover-ups, so would rather we move away from that.

    I'm not saying cover up, I'm saying delay for a short period until can be investigated further.

    Separately, this is the first I'm hearing about "possible deaths", the announcements call out "covid related deaths". Big difference in that so maybe they should call them "possible deaths" from now on.


  • #3671
    Arghus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,312 ✭✭✭✭Arghus


    Kiith wrote: »
    NPHET should not be going in front of the public and saying pregnant woman are at risk of a stillbirth based on absolutely no scientific evidence. There is literally nothing to even suggest those cases are COVID related, but they went ahead and said it anyway.

    Considering stress can have a big impact on early pregnancy, maybe they should have actually looked into it properly before scaring a **** ton of people.

    I don't know if you watched the presser where this came up but Dr. Glynn was asked a question about this by a journalist,a particular one who tends to look for maximum controversy and aggro. He didn't come into the room talking about this. He really couldn't have stressed enough that these were cases that required further investigation, that there was nothing officially confirmed.

    I'm not entirely sure what the context was of the information being out in the public domain. He was asked a direct question by a journalist of whether he was aware of reports about it - he answered he was, stressed these were all prelimary reports, explained the medical context, stressed that it was very, very rare, said pregnant women shouldn't do anything beyond what they were already doing, repeated the fact that the experience of pregnancy and childbirth has continued to be a positive experience for the vast, vast majority while Covid was going on and said if people had concerns they should talk to their GP/doctor. He couldn't have been fairer.

    Watch him here, he's measured and calm. He was asked a question about it, he didn't bring it up. He answered honestly and wasn't trying to scare people. It isn't his fault if George Lee freaks about it afterwards and RTÉ leads with that story. The media usually run with things and hype them up, but usually the remarks from NPHET in their original context are far more sober and unhysterical - and that was no different in this instance. I think the characterisation of NPHET and Ronan Glynn, in particular, trying to add to pregnant women's stress is entirely unfair.

    I know a lot of people like any opportunity to find fault with anything they, NPHET, do - but it's a real stretch this one. If there was one single adverse outcome at any stage that could be linked to this condition and NPHET said nothing, despite being aware of it, I am entirely sure that would also be used as grounds for criticism too. They can't win.

    Here’s his comments from the last day.

    https://twitter.com/rtenews/status/1367541421750841350?s=20


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  • #3672
    Turtwig
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,578 ✭✭✭✭Turtwig


    I think part of the problem too was that NPHET only became aware of the investigations after their actual meetings that day. It was probably something Glynn would like to have prepared better. The Irish media went nuts with it.

    That said I do think framing matters. If Glynn had begun by reiterating the successful amount of Irish pregnancies during the pandemic it would have been better. A bit like offering a person €100 today or wait for €200 in 30 days time. If you phrase that as €100 Euro today and €0 Euro in 30 days vs €0 today and €200 in 30 days people have a better intuition for the scenario involved.


  • #3673
    blade1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,827 ✭✭✭✭blade1


    Guards getting a bit of practice in for cork protest.


    https://twitter.com/PierceOCinneide/status/1368189424387948553?s=19


  • #3674
    bennyl10
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,599 ✭✭✭bennyl10


    blade1 wrote: »
    Guards getting a bit of practice in for cork protest.


    https://twitter.com/PierceOCinneide/status/1368189424387948553?s=19

    Always amazes me how these clips never offer context. Do the anti everything eegits think we’re all thick?

    Also.. stopping trains and cars? You mean stopping those breaching regulations?


  • #3675
    Lundstram
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,129 ✭✭✭Lundstram


    bennyl10 wrote: »
    Always amazes me how these clips never offer context. Do the anti everything eegits think we’re all thick?

    Also.. stopping trains and cars? You mean stopping those breaching regulations?

    They violently arrested a well known street performer earlier, they clearly thought he was a protestor.

    Maybe it's the Gardai who need to focus on context.


  • #3676
    Polar101
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,060 ✭✭✭Polar101


    "Ronnie Lodge" has some good points, he should definitely heed his own advice.


  • #3677
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 1,086 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    bennyl10 wrote: »
    Always amazes me how these clips never offer context. Do the anti everything eegits think we’re all thick?

    Also.. stopping trains and cars? You mean stopping those breaching regulations?

    Looks like he was playing his bongo too loud and singing questionable lyrics. They should have just shot him to be sure.


  • #3678
    Klonker
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,669 ✭✭✭Klonker


    Arghus wrote: »
    I don't know if you watched the presser where this came up but Dr. Glynn was asked a question about this by a journalist,a particular one who tends to look for maximum controversy and aggro. He didn't come into the room talking about this. He really couldn't have stressed enough that these were cases that required further investigation, that there was nothing officially confirmed.

    I'm not entirely sure what the context was of the information being out in the public domain. He was asked a direct question by a journalist of whether he was aware of reports about it - he answered he was, stressed these were all prelimary reports, explained the medical context, stressed that it was very, very rare, said pregnant women shouldn't do anything beyond what they were already doing, repeated the fact that the experience of pregnancy and childbirth has continued to be a positive experience for the vast, vast majority while Covid was going on and said if people had concerns they should talk to their GP/doctor. He couldn't have been fairer.

    Watch him here, he's measured and calm. He was asked a question about it, he didn't bring it up. He answered honestly and wasn't trying to scare people. It isn't his fault if George Lee freaks about it afterwards and RTÉ leads with that story. The media usually run with things and hype them up, but usually the remarks from NPHET in their original context are far more sober and unhysterical - and that was no different in this instance. I think the characterisation of NPHET and Ronan Glynn, in particular, trying to add to pregnant women's stress is entirely unfair.

    I know a lot of people like any opportunity to find fault with anything they, NPHET, do - but it's a real stretch this one. If there was one single adverse outcome at any stage that could be linked to this condition and NPHET said nothing, despite being aware of it, I am entirely sure that would also be used as grounds for criticism too. They can't win.

    Here’s his comments from the last day.

    https://twitter.com/rtenews/status/1367541421750841350?s=20

    I understand George Lee was the one who asked the question who seemed to have some prior information on it but it was always going to be asked when the death age range was given as 0 to 90+.


  • #3679
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 5,422 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Lundstram wrote: »
    They violently arrested a well known street performer earlier, they clearly thought he was a protestor.

    Maybe it's the Gardai who need to focus on context.

    You can be certain there'll be a few in here praying for an unruly handful is it will give them licence to tarnish entire gathering, and bay for blood hoping that the Gardaí "crack some skulls".


  • #3680
    Leftwaffe
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,558 ✭✭✭Leftwaffe


    Probes wrote: »
    I feel like people are falling over themselves to criticise Nphet here. It's very possible that Covid increases the risk of stillbirth like other infections do too. I'd say it's quite likely that they are concluding that Covid has been a complication in those births leading to a negative outcome. They don't know how much of a problem it is, if it's worse with Covid or if it's typical of all infections. We are in a fast moving pandemic, we are dealing with variants now too, there is a lot of uncertainty. To criticise them for doing their job in reporting the information and providing recommendations is pretty low.

    https://www.hse.ie/eng/health/immunisation/pubinfo/flu-vaccination/flu-vaccine-pregnancy/

    I feel like your ignoring the data. A study by imperial college in the UK which I posted to you earlier, without any response, has shown there is no increased risk of still birth from C19. So should we chose to believe these claims which as of yet are unfounded? Or should we believe a study which was conducted properly from start to finish with a huge sample size?

    Fast moving pandemic my hole. It’s negligence from NPHET. And counting two of the deaths in the statistics. Come on, give me a break here.


  • #3681
    Plumbthedepths
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,653 ✭✭✭✭Plumbthedepths


    Klonker wrote: »
    I understand George Lee was the one who asked the question who seemed to have some prior information on it but it was always going to be asked when the death age range was given as 0 to 90+.

    It's strange but there are some here that will not tolerate any criticism of Nphet, personally I believe that is not desirable it only entrenches groupthink.


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  • #3682
    WoollyRedHat
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,462 ✭✭✭✭WoollyRedHat


    Anyone else having issue with strike through posts? Every post from.11:48 onwards is appearing as crossed out for me... Only appears when I'm logged in, strange..


  • #3683
    Plumbthedepths
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,653 ✭✭✭✭Plumbthedepths


    Leftwaffe wrote: »
    I feel like your ignoring the data. A study by imperial college in the UK which I posted to you earlier, without any response, has shown there is no increased risk of still birth from C19. So should we chose to believe these claims which as of yet are unfounded? Or should we believe a study which was conducted properly from start to finish with a huge sample size?

    Fast moving pandemic my hole. It’s negligence from NPHET. And counting two of the deaths in the statistics. Come on, give me a break here.

    Maybe the 'worry' needed to be ramped up?
    https://www.broadsheet.ie/2020/11/24/the-science-of-not-worrying-enough/


  • #3684
    froog
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,784 ✭✭✭froog


    WoollyRedHat wrote: »
    Anyone else having issue with strike through posts? Every post from.11:48 onwards is appearing as crossed out for me... Only appears when I'm logged in, strange..

    Yes thought i was going mad. Only on the phone tho...


  • #3685
    Arghus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,312 ✭✭✭✭Arghus


    Klonker wrote: »
    I understand George Lee was the one who asked the question who seemed to have some prior information on it but it was always going to be asked when the death age range was given as 0 to 90+.

    It was a female journalist from the Irish Independent who asked about it first afaik - you can hear her in the twitter clip.

    Then George Lee had his customary freak out.


  • #3686
    WoollyRedHat
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,462 ✭✭✭✭WoollyRedHat


    froog wrote: »
    Yes thought i was going mad. Only on the phone tho...

    Yeah also seems to only be issue on this thread, others are fine.


  • #3687
    Quantum Baloney
    Closed Accounts Posts: 190 ✭✭Quantum Baloney


    Deleted User wrote: »
    You can be certain there'll be a few in here [...] hoping that the Gardaí "crack some skulls".

    Astonishingly number of these types on boards.


  • #3688
    Plumbthedepths
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,653 ✭✭✭✭Plumbthedepths


    Quantum Baloney wrote: »
    Astonishingly number of these types on boards.

    It's funny actually to see the mask slip on posters who like to project a reasoned and balanced mindset. One such poster last week was happy to see Garda ' cracking skulls'.


  • #3689
    Arghus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,312 ✭✭✭✭Arghus


    Plumbthedepths wrote: »
    It's strange but there are some here that will not tolerate any criticism of Nphet, personally I believe that is not desirable it only entrenches groupthink.


    And equally there are some who will use anything as grounds to criticise NPHET.

    I struggle to see how Glynn could have handled the journalist's question in any other way. He couldn't deny that he'd been made aware of it - and he tried to his best to talk about that it was prelimary findings, was potentially exceedingly rare and that maternity care was still top notch. What else could he have said when faced with a question about this?


  • #3690
    WoollyRedHat
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,462 ✭✭✭✭WoollyRedHat


    WoollyRedHat wrote: »
    Yeah also seems to only be issue on this thread, others are fine.

    Fixed now, some weird vodoo.


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  • #3691
    CIARAN_BOYLE
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,595 ✭✭✭✭CIARAN_BOYLE


    Arghus wrote: »
    And equally there are some who will use anything as grounds to criticise NPHET.

    I struggle to see how Glynn could have handled the journalist's question in any other way. He couldn't deny that he'd been made aware of it - and he tried to his best to talk about that it was prelimary findings, was potentially exceedingly rare and that maternity care was still top notch. What else could he have said when faced with a question about this?

    Glynn dealt with the question correctly.

    The media made it an issue and obsessed posters on social media made it an issue.


This discussion has been closed.
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