Relaxation of Restrictions, Part IX Read OP For Mod Warnings

Boggles · 05-03-2021 02:37PM

bb1234567 wrote: »

https://twitter.com/cjsnowdon/status/1367829578144702465/photo/1

Vaccine having a pretty stunning impact on case positivity in the UK. One of the few European countries not facing into a third or fourth wave now

Whilst I imagine the vaccines are having an effect, the comparable countries have all lifted restrictions too early or in Swedens case put in a couple of token ones, the UK haven't.

We are following the UK model.

Klonker · 05-03-2021 03:04PM

timmyntc wrote: »

They make a good point - if its for public health, then why the distinction between public & private sites. Its not like public sites are inherently safer.

And if the argument is public sites are "essential" well so are private sites. We are in the midst of a housing crisis, private sites are more essential than ever.

One helps the government hit its social housing targets, the other doesn't. That's the any difference I can see.

timmyntc · 05-03-2021 03:07PM

Klonker wrote: »

One helps the government hit its social housing targets, the other doesn't. That's the any difference I can see.

Yes but is that a legal justification for keeping private builds shut while public ones stay open?

If the govt shut private bus services for health reasons, but not state-owned services, do you think that would be legal?

Klonker · 05-03-2021 03:20PM

No I don't think it is a legal justification to keep private construction closed and I think they're right to take legal action. I was just trying to point out why the government made the distinction between both and why they did so,to cover themselves.

I doubt NPHET said close just private as its a higher risk area :pac:

whisky_galore · 05-03-2021 03:23PM

DenMan wrote: »

It's full relaxation mode for Conor McGregor and his no mask shop in Kildare.

https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/conor-mcgregor-buys-his-whiskey-without-wearing-mask-in-kildare-store-1090903.html

Desperate bid to boost sales of his hooch.

titan18 · 05-03-2021 03:24PM

Not even all private stuff is closed too as there's still construction on multinational stuff ongoing

05-03-2021 03:45PM

Boggles wrote: »

Whilst I imagine the vaccines are having an effect, the comparable countries have all lifted restrictions too early or in Swedens case put in a couple of token ones, the UK haven't.

We are following the UK model.

Thankfully, imagination doesn't come into it.

The vaccines are a tremendous achievement and it's time to start recognising that things have changed for the better by making tangible plans to re-establish normal life and restore rights and by putting those plans into action.

Boggles · 05-03-2021 04:04PM

ecoli3136 wrote: »

Thankfully, imagination doesn't come into it.

The vaccines are a tremendous achievement and it's time to start recognising that things have changed for the better by making tangible plans to re-establish normal life and restore rights and by putting those plans into action.

Yep, that's what we are doing. 400,000 kids went back to school or child care this week, another substantial cohort the week after next.

The reopening of society and the economy will run parallel with the vaccine roll out and to minimize the impact of a new wave of infection.

timmyntc · 05-03-2021 04:19PM

Boggles wrote: »

Yep, that's what we are doing. 400,000 kids went back to school or child care this week, another substantial cohort the week after next.

The reopening of society and the economy will run parallel with the vaccine roll out and to minimize the impact of a new wave of infection.

Ah yes, of course. The plan. The great reopening.
What was the reopening plan again?
Reassess every 6 weeks and play it by ear?

Thats not a plan. It's a very clear lack thereof. To date there has been no indication that we will reopen at all, other than hopeful optimism from some of the public. The government/NPHET have not committed to any dates, or case targets, or hospitalisation metrics. They have not promised under what circumstances various parts of our economy can reopen.

There has been no plan, just hide under the bed in fear of the virus, despite the fact we have vaccines and are no longer at such risk from covid.

Boggles · 05-03-2021 04:27PM

timmyntc wrote: »

To date there has been no indication that we will reopen at all

Boggles wrote: »

Yep, that's what we are doing. 400,000 kids went back to school or child care this week, another substantial cohort the week after next.

.

timmyntc · 05-03-2021 04:29PM

timmyntc wrote: »

Ah yes, of course. The plan. The great reopening.
What was the reopening plan again?
Reassess every 6 weeks and play it by ear?

Thats not a plan. It's a very clear lack thereof.

Boggles wrote: »

.

Whoosh

05-03-2021 04:39PM

Boggles wrote: »

The reopening of society and the economy will run parallel with the vaccine roll out and to minimize the impact of a new wave of infection.

"run parallel with the vaccine roll out"?

Even you have absolutely no idea what that meaningless verbiage is supposed to convey.

There is no adequate plan for the next e.g. 6 months whatsoever, never mind the next year - 18 months. Even the most ardent supporters of NPHET (not their job to come up with such a plan) or the government (on the other hand...) would admit that, unless they are delusional. This is not acceptable.

"I can tell you what I hope the next 6 weeks will be like" is not an adequate plan.

Graham · 05-03-2021 04:42PM

ecoli3136 wrote: »

"run parallel with the vaccine roll out"?

Even you have absolutely no idea what that meaningless verbiage is supposed to convey.

It means society and the economy will re-open as the vaccine program progresses.

What's the confusion?

05-03-2021 04:48PM

Graham wrote: »

It means society and the economy will re-open as the vaccine program progresses.

What's the confusion?

It's not a question of confusion and I never said I was confused, for god's sake.

It's a matter of everything being left completely vague and no willingness to identify the targets, the way in which those targets will be achieved, and the (positive) consequences of hitting those targets.

It's the fact that there is no adequate detail available for how the re-opening of society and the economy will be achieved.

What you do get is vaguely ominous undertones (and overtones) from NPHET that restrictions are here to stay for the foreseeable future.

I don't understand why people feel the need to just ignore the fact that the lack of leadership in the country is manifesting itself in an ability to describe, in real terms, the circumstances, in hard data, which will govern so-called re-opening NB "we're close to the light at the end of the tunnel but efforts must continue" is not hard data;

Are you not at all concerned that there is no clarity around re-opening? That there is no willingness to align our schedule to the point in time when, on what the government have set as a target, those who are considered vulnerable to severe Covid-19 infection have been protected by vaccination?

Can you not see that the nature of the emergency now, is the isssue of getting our economy back to a functional level, so that we can continue to pay for societies needs as best we can?

Perhaps you are comforted by platitudes such as "society will re-open as the vaccine progresses" . I am not.

If you are told "soon" in answer to the question "when", on this issue, you are perhaps not being treated with much respect.

If you accept that answer as adequate, well, that says it all.

Polar101 · 05-03-2021 05:18PM

ecoli3136 wrote: »

Perhaps you are comforted by platitudes such as "society will re-open as the vaccine progresses" . I am not.

That's too bad, but that's how it's likely to go anyway.

05-03-2021 05:26PM

Polar101 wrote: »

That's too bad, but that's how it's likely to go anyway.

Unfortunately, I agree you are right.

That doesn't mean it is acceptable.

xboxseries · 05-03-2021 05:28PM

bb1234567 wrote: »

Vaccine having a pretty stunning impact on case positivity in the UK. One of the few European countries not facing into a third or fourth wave now

Nah, don't think so

We've very little vaccinated in comparison and doing even better than UK, it's not the vaccines whatever it is causing the drop

Ireland Jan 8th 8,200 cases
Ireland Mar 4th 460 cases

UK Jan 8th 68,000 cases
UK Mar 4th 6,500 cases

Just to wreck your head even more

Israel Jan 8th 6,309 cases
Israel Mar 4th 3,922 cases

Israel 60%, UK 30%, Ireland 5% population on 1st dose and we have seen the most case reductions

Covid is a head wrecker that's all I get from reading those charts.

timmyntc · 05-03-2021 05:41PM

xboxseries wrote: »

Nah, don't think so

We've very little vaccinated in comparison and doing even better than UK, it's not the vaccines whatever it is causing the drop

Ireland Jan 8th 8,200 cases
Ireland Mar 4th 460 cases

UK Jan 8th 68,000 cases
UK Mar 4th 6,500 cases

Just to wreck your head even more

Israel Jan 8th 6,309 cases
Israel Mar 4th 3,922 cases

Israel 60%, UK 30%, Ireland 5% population on 1st dose and we have seen the most case reductions

Covid is a head wrecker that's all I get from reading those charts.

Israel is more open than the rest but also has a big problem with non-compliance & mass gatherings in the orthodox community.

The UK is more open than us also.

Our drop is likely attributed to restrictions, won't see vaccine impact until we open back up. Although we are already seeing the drop in HCW infections reported

Boggles · 05-03-2021 05:52PM

ecoli3136 wrote: »

It's the fact that there is no adequate detail available for how the re-opening of society and the economy will be achieved.

https://assets.gov.ie/124440/a3fa7c2b-9ee4-492a-b0c0-ed3374fb1729.pdf

timmyntc · 05-03-2021 05:59PM

Boggles wrote: »

https://assets.gov.ie/124440/a3fa7c2b-9ee4-492a-b0c0-ed3374fb1729.pdf

Have you actually read that link? It says almost nothing.

Up to 5th April:
 The current Level 5 restrictions will be extended until the 5th of April 2021.
 Subject to continued improvement in the profile of the disease to the end of February:
(iii) there is scope to facilitate the safe return of in-school education and childcare services
but this must be on a cautious and phased basis;
(iv) Non-COVID health and social care services will be resumed as quickly as possible,
subject to ongoing national risk assessments.

...

Situation After 5th April
The situation will be subject to ongoing review taking account of the evolving epidemiological situation
and available evidence in relation to vaccine deployment, uptake and effectiveness.
However, public health advice is that it is too early to say how and when other restrictions should be
eased given current uncertainties.
Government will meet in advance of the 5th of April to review the level of restrictions.

You just played yourself B

Boggles · 05-03-2021 06:12PM

timmyntc wrote: »

Have you actually read that link? It says almost nothing.

The plan the OP asked for is there.

Again though, what people want is simplicity, easy solutions and answers in what is a fluid and potentially grave situation.

Basically a bunch of arbitrary dates and promises.

The government are not hiding anything, they have been crystal clear. Probably one of the first times they been.

Q2 will see the ramping up of vaccinations and the hope is with that more options for reopening.

Schools and non covid health care have been prioritized, as they rightly should be.

The reality is countries in Europe are well on their way to putting their populous and health care systems through a new wave of infections.

I'd rather we didn't.

timmyntc · 05-03-2021 06:15PM

Boggles wrote: »

The plan the OP asked for is there.

Again though, what people want is simplicity, easy solutions and answers in what is a fluid and potentially grave situation.

Basically a bunch of arbitrary dates and promises.

The government are not hiding anything, they have been crystal clear. Probably one of the first times they been.

Q2 will see the ramping up of vaccinations and the hope is with that more options for reopening.

Schools and non covid health care have been prioritized, as they rightly should be.

The reality is countries in Europe are well on their way to putting their populous and health care systems through a new wave of infections.

I'd rather we didn't.

The plan he asked for isnt there - there is no actual plan in that document, thats the point. They put out a document, called it a "plan" or "roadmap" but if theres nothing of substance in it how is it a plan?

It literally says that come April 5th they will review and then make a plan as to what will reopen next, i.e. they havent made that plan yet.

Boggles · 05-03-2021 06:19PM

timmyntc wrote: »

The plan he asked for isnt there - there is no actual plan in that document, thats the point. The put out a document, called it a "plan" or "roadmap" but if theres nothing of substance in it how is it a plan?

It literally says that come April 5th they will review and then make a plan as to what will reopen next, i.e. they havent made that plan yet.

It is a plan, it's just not the simplistic version of a plan you have in your head.

That is not possible right now.

moonage · 05-03-2021 06:26PM

suicide_circus wrote: »

Well worth a watch if you have time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5lXAA7ZOROc

I like Lord Sumption but his endorsement of vaccine passports (about 30 minutes in) totally contradicts his previous points on personal freedoms and civil liberties.

His reason and logic break down at this point. Why should people be coerced into taking vaccines (for a virus that has little or no effect on the vast majority) just to take part in normal human activities? People shouldn't be forced to take vaccines in order to allay the irrational fears of others.

RGS · 05-03-2021 06:27PM

That's not a plan.

Most plans contain KPI'S by which success is measured. The government plan is waffle.

Most people are seeking measurable metrics. This plan should set out what restrictions will be removed or altered depending on certain targets being met. But no our leaders have spent the last 12 months on the classic "we are not where we want to be" without stating what "where we want to be" is.

05-03-2021 06:36PM

RGS wrote: »

That's not a plan.

Most plans contain KPI'S by which success is measured. The government plan is waffle.

Most people are seeking measurable metrics. This plan should set out what restrictions will be removed or altered depending on certain targets being met. But no our leaders have spent the last 12 months on the classic "we are not where we want to be" without stating what "where we want to be" is.

Exactly.

For example, what are daily case numbers, R number, 7/14 day incidence rate, hospita and l icu numbers required in order to allow x, y, z to be open and/or a, b, c to be permitted.

Estimates of dates to achieve these would be welcome but entirely secondary. The main point is to define with clarity the conditions in which people can e.g expect to open up their business, attend university in person, play sports with others, go to a convert etc, you know, normal stuff.

Then, what are the means by which those targets will be attempted to be achieved.

Of course, these are targets and aspirational by their nature. No one is saying that everything can be controlled or anything guaranteed.

But the inability to generate a clear plan with sensible, transparent and measurable parameters is either wilful (to avoid accountability) or incompetent.

Sobit1964 · 05-03-2021 06:46PM

https://www.rte.ie/news/newslens/2021/0304/1201064-5-things-we-learned/

Four preliminary reports of stillbirths potentially associated with a condition called Covid Placentitis have emerged in Ireland, said Deputy Chief Medical Officer Dr Ronan Glynn.

He said the reports should be interpreted with caution, as the coroners have not yet concluded their findings.

Two of the deaths have been officially reported as part of this evening's figures.

Wow... words escape me.

05-03-2021 06:47PM

Boggles wrote: »

https://assets.gov.ie/124440/a3fa7c2b-9ee4-492a-b0c0-ed3374fb1729.pdf

Are you the Cabinet's Mum or something?

Russman · 05-03-2021 07:00PM

ecoli3136 wrote: »

Exactly.

For example, what are daily case numbers, R number, 7/14 day incidence rate, hospita and l icu numbers required in order to allow x, y, z to be open and/or a, b, c to be permitted.

Estimates of dates to achieve these would be welcome but entirely secondary. The main point is to define with clarity the conditions in which people can e.g expect to open up their business, attend university in person, play sports with others, go to a convert etc, you know, normal stuff.

Then, what are the means by which those targets will be attempted to be achieved.

Of course, these are targets and aspirational by their nature. No one is saying that everything can be controlled or anything guaranteed.

But the inability to generate a clear plan with sensible, transparent and measurable parameters is either wilful (to avoid accountability) or incompetent.

I get what you’re looking for, but is it a case with Covid that there is no definitive marker, rather a more complicated combination of measures and judgements, to allow opening ? I don’t know the answer to that, but I do suspect it’s not as simple as if x happens, we can do y. I’ve definitely heard Glynn at recent press conferences mention it’s a combination of lots of metrics.

I agree with targets to an extent, but the problem I see is that if we’re almost at one, or fall slightly short of one, people will still regard it as reached and expect whatever was “promised”. Same with dates, sure even look now and you have people asking about construction on 5th April, I get their concern etc but it’s still a month away, how can anyone say what will happen in that time ?
I dunno, all I know is it’s a great time to not be in government if you’re a politician.

05-03-2021 07:08PM

Russman wrote: »

I’ve definitely heard Glynn at recent press conferences mention it’s a combination of lots of metrics.

I agree - and it's time for a lot more transparency around the metrics in question and how NPHET are reaching decisions on their positions around them.

(Fair play, balanced post btw)

Relaxation of Restrictions, Part IX *Read OP For Mod Warnings*

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Relaxation of Restrictions, Part IX Read OP For Mod Warnings