Ulster vs. Leinster, Saturday 6th March, 19.35 (Eir Sport 1)

Dave_The_Sheep · 05-03-2021 1:25pm #1

Ulster

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Leinster

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Leinster will be happy - actually let me rephrase that - I'll be happy if Leinster can deny Ulster the TBP or get a LBP themselves. Lovely looking Ulster backline.

sullivlo · 05-03-2021 1:28pm

Leinster forwards are better than Ulsters.
Ulsters backs are better than Leinsters.

Strange that Nordi has the armband, doesn't it normally go to Al O'Connnor?

Heart says Leinster. Head says Ulster.

arsebiscuits1 · 05-03-2021 1:32pm

sullivlo wrote: »

Leinster forwards are better than Ulsters.
Ulsters backs are better than Leinsters.

Strange that Nordi has the armband, doesn't it normally go to Al O'Connnor?

Heart says Leinster. Head says Ulster.

Jordi captained for the last few games (or at least last week)

awec · 05-03-2021 1:36pm

sullivlo wrote: »

Leinster forwards are better than Ulsters.
Ulsters backs are better than Leinsters.

Strange that Nordi has the armband, doesn't it normally go to Al O'Connnor?

Heart says Leinster. Head says Ulster.

You think so?

O'Sullivan vs Byrne, I think there's no difference.
Andrew vs Tracy, there is no real difference.
O'Toole vs Bent, maybe marginally Bent
Toner is better than O'Connor, or he was at least
Treadwell vs Fardy, Fardy hasn't been amazing this year
Timoney v Ruddock no contest
Murphy v VDF, yea, VDF but not by a whole lot
Coetzee v Penny, no contest

I think it's fairly close.

arsebiscuits1 · 05-03-2021 1:40pm

awec wrote: »

You think so?

O'Sullivan vs Byrne, I think there's no difference.
Andrew vs Tracy, there is no real difference.
O'Toole vs Bent, maybe marginally Bent
Toner is better than O'Connor, or he was at least
Treadwell vs Fardy, Fardy hasn't been amazing this year
Timoney v Ruddock no contest
Murphy v VDF, yea, VDF but not by a whole lot
Coetzee v Penny, no contest

I think it's fairly close.

There's not much in it but Leinster shade it. Especially with the units

Front row - Leinster
Second Row - Leinster
Back Row - Leinster but close

molloyjh · 05-03-2021 1:40pm

awec wrote: »

You think so?

O'Sullivan vs Byrne, I think there's no difference.
Andrew vs Tracy, there is no real difference.
O'Toole vs Bent, maybe marginally Bent
Toner is better than O'Connor, or he was at least
Treadwell vs Fardy, Fardy hasn't been amazing this year
Timoney v Ruddock no contest
Murphy v VDF, yea, VDF but not by a whole lot
Coetzee v Penny, no contest

I think it's fairly close.

I think we shade it, but it is close. Your backs are a distance better then too. So if your pack can get close enough to ours in terms of overall parity then you guys will win it.

Paul Smeenus · 05-03-2021 1:42pm

I think the subs will be the real difference.

Interesting that Leinster have gone for a 6-2 spilt and Ulster have held players like Reidy, Moore and Lyttle to spring off the bench.

arsebiscuits1 · 05-03-2021 1:43pm

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

I think the subs will be the real difference.

Interesting that Leinster have gone for a 6-2 spilt and Ulster have held players like Reidy, Moore and Lyttle to spring off the bench.

Leinster it appears had literally no choice but to take a 6-2 split.

Although we've deployed it tactically a few times this season.

Tomorrow - we don't have a choice.

Only other fit back in the academy or senior squad is Hugh O'Sullivan

molloyjh · 05-03-2021 1:43pm

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

I think the subs will be the real difference.

Interesting that Leinster have gone for a 6-2 spilt and Ulster have held players like Reidy, Moore and Lyttle to spring off the bench.

We've gone 6-2 because we literally have no back left. It wasn't by choice at all. Apparently Hawkshaw is injured too so we are absolute bare bones.

Paul Smeenus · 05-03-2021 1:47pm

What the hell are youse doing with your young backs in training? Taking baseball bats to them?

salmocab · 05-03-2021 1:48pm

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

What the hell are youse doing with your young backs in training? Taking baseball bats to them?

Toughens them up in the long run

arsebiscuits1 · 05-03-2021 1:51pm

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

What the hell are youse doing with your young backs in training? Taking baseball bats to them?

That I don't know.

But there have been mumblings about the quality of S&C this year at Leinster.

A lot of guys picking up injuries yes.

But a lot of guys picking up injuries having just returned from injury

irishbucsfan · 05-03-2021 1:53pm

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

What the hell are youse doing with your young backs in training? Taking baseball bats to them?

Part of what makes the Leinster academy so great is that they don’t just gain skills to help them with their time as Leinster players, they are given time and resources to prepare them in life for whatever they may do if they don’t make it right away as a Leinster player.

For example if they have to go down to Munster and get broken by them

Paul Smeenus · 05-03-2021 1:54pm

arsebiscuits1 wrote: »

That I don't know.

But there have been mumblings about the quality of S&C this year at Leinster.

A lot of guys picking up injuries yes.

But a lot of guys picking up injuries having just returned from injury

I have to say there's been a lot of caution at Ravenhill with bringing lads back. It's been frustrating, but ultimately, for the players, good to see.

bilston · 05-03-2021 1:55pm

Front Row is even steven
Leinster have a definite edge in the engine room and back row in terms of the collective, but a fully fit and firing Coetzee could partially negate that alone...however he may not be either!

Half backs are pretty even too

11 to 15 is clearly advantage Ulster

Not sure about the benches. Reidy, Matthewson, S.Moore and Lyttle are potential game changers for Ulster. The Leinster bench seems more callow, but Cronin, Murphy and Molony are good players and I thought Dunne was good that day he played in the A match a few weeks back, so maybe advantage Ulster there, but with the 6 2 split Leinster have more beef to come on.

Forwards win matches and Leinster have an edge there so Ulster will need a big performance to win.

arsebiscuits1 · 05-03-2021 1:58pm

bilston wrote: »

Front Row is even steven
Leinster have a definite edge in the engine room and back row in terms of the collective, but a fully fit and firing Coetzee could partially negate that alone...however he may not be either!

Half backs are pretty even too

11 to 15 is clearly advantage Ulster

Not sure about the benches. Reidy, Matthewson, S.Moore and Lyttle are potential game changers for Ulster. The Leinster bench seems more callow, but Cronin, Murphy and Molony are good players and I thought Dunne was good that day he played in the A match a few weeks back, so maybe advantage Ulster there, but with the 6 2 split Leinster have more beef to come on.

Forwards win matches and Leinster have an edge there so Ulster will need a big performance to win.

With the front rows I think the biggest disparity is in set piece vs open play ability.

EOS, Andrew and TOT all are superior to their opposite numbers in open play.

But when it comes to pushing and shoving, I'd take Byrne, Tracy and Bent all day.

I think Leinster will be going hard at the Ulster scrum. And hopefully will get some change

Paul Smeenus · 05-03-2021 1:59pm

I really wish I could get along to see this one.

I'd five us a slight edge in the front row overall - definitely around the park, but there may be wobbles in the scrum.

Paul Smeenus · 05-03-2021 2:01pm

arsebiscuits1 wrote: »

With the front rows I think the biggest disparity is in set piece vs open play ability.

EOS, Andrew and TOT all are superior to their opposite numbers in open play.

But when it comes to pushing and shoving, I'd take Byrne, Tracy and Bent all day.

I think Leinster will be going hard at the Ulster scrum. And hopefully will get some change

Snap.

Squidgy Black · 05-03-2021 2:03pm

Reckon set piece will play a big part in this, if we can get dominance at the scrum and lineout it'll be a big advantage.

Backline's worrying, especially considering the 6-2 split and no backup 10.

Paul Smeenus · 05-03-2021 2:07pm

McFarland is obviously looking for scrum dominance in the last twenty, as a platform to launch off at tired bodies. Especially if we can bring Lyttle on to finish an opportunity or two.

bilston · 05-03-2021 2:08pm

Leinster have more internationals on show than Ulster tomorrow, and the backs are 4 internationals each so maybe not the gap I initially thought in the backline

Paul Smeenus · 05-03-2021 2:09pm

And we'll see the most what the most successful offloading province can do against the least.

molloyjh · 05-03-2021 2:13pm

If Ulster can't beat this Leinster team then not only does Ulster Rugby have problems, but so does Irish rugby. It absolutely shouldn't be the case that a province missing 28+ players can go away from home and win against another province unless that province is badly hit by absences as well. My (limited) knowledge of Ulster would suggest several guys missing, but no more than that. Would that be fair?

thomond2006 · 05-03-2021 2:15pm

molloyjh wrote: »

If Ulster can't beat this Leinster team then not only does Ulster Rugby have problems, but so does Irish rugby. It absolutely shouldn't be the case that a province missing 28+ players can go away from home and win against another province unless that province is badly hit by absences as well. My (limited) knowledge of Ulster would suggest several guys missing, but no more than that. Would that be fair?

Ulster don't have a cyborg producing school system.

Paul Smeenus · 05-03-2021 2:19pm

molloyjh wrote: »

If Ulster can't beat this Leinster team then not only does Ulster Rugby have problems, but so does Irish rugby. It absolutely shouldn't be the case that a province missing 28+ players can go away from home and win against another province unless that province is badly hit by absences as well. My (limited) knowledge of Ulster would suggest several guys missing, but no more than that. Would that be fair?

Why don't we wait and see how the game goes, before we clutch our pearls too tight?

You're right about us not missing many players - only McGrath, Herring, Carter, Henderson, Burns, Marshall and Addison that would improve the team.

Clegg · 05-03-2021 2:19pm

I think we've already seen that there are, or at least hadls been, serious problems with player development in Ireland. Munster haven't developed a home grown starter in almost 10 years. Seems to be improving now but a decade is a long time to go without developing a genuine talent.

Ulster have been a bit better with Stockdale coming through more recently. Although that's just one player too. Lots of talent in their squad, but I'm unsure if they're better than whose currently with Ireland. Probably not tbh.

bayern · 05-03-2021 2:20pm

thomond2006 wrote: »

Ulster don't have a cyborg producing school system.

tell that to their A team.

Paul Smeenus · 05-03-2021 2:21pm

bayern wrote: »

tell that to their A team.

The Day Bayern's World Ended.

bayern · 05-03-2021 2:22pm

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

The Day Bayern's World Ended.

last saturday when they lost?

it's the false hope that gets to you.

Paul Smeenus · 05-03-2021 2:26pm

bayern wrote: »

last saturday when they lost?

it's the false hope that gets to you.

Yeah, Munster and Ulster have two pretty good A teams going on. Great rivalry between them.

bayern · 05-03-2021 2:28pm

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

Yeah, Munster and Ulster have two pretty good A teams going on. Great rivalry between them.

Great to see. Shame last week wasn't streamed last tomorrows game.

molloyjh · 05-03-2021 2:34pm

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

Why don't we wait and see how the game goes, before we clutch our pearls too tight?

You're right about us not missing many players - only McGrath, Herring, Carter, Henderson, Burns, Marshall and Addison that would improve the team.

I dont really think it's pearl clutching at all. No team missing that many players should be winning against half decent opposition. Glasgow are rubbish at the moment but gave us a fright with 14 men. We needed a 2 man advantage to finally close that game out. And Ulster are a better side than Glasgow by a distance, and are certainly more than half-decent opposition.

To be clear, I think Ulster will win. I dont really expect Leinster to at all. I'm more addressing the bookies spread that has Leinster as favourites. We shouldn't be against this Ulster side IMO. It just boggles my mind a bit that we are.

EDIT: And the point wasn't about player development either btw. It was more of a general point about overall competitiveness.

Paul Smeenus · 05-03-2021 2:36pm

bayern wrote: »

Great to see. Shame last week wasn't streamed last tomorrows game.

Yeah - given all the bright eyed, bushy-tailed tech start-ups in Dublin, you'd have thought they could find someone to stream it, but apparently not.

Maybe this lack of interest in A rugby in the Southern capital explains some things.

Paul Smeenus · 05-03-2021 2:38pm

molloyjh wrote: »

I dont really think it's pearl clutching at all. No team missing that many players should be winning against half decent opposition. Glasgow are rubbish at the moment but gave us a fright with 14 men. We needed a 2 man advantage to finally close that game out. And Ulster are a better side than Glasgow by a distance, and are certainly more than half-decent opposition.

To be clear, I think Ulster will win. I dont really expect Leinster to at all. I'm more addressing the bookies spread that has Leinster as favourites. We shouldn't be against this Ulster side IMO. It just boggles my mind a bit that we are.

EDIT: And the point wasn't about player development either btw. It was more of a general point about overall competitiveness.

Bookies gonna book-make. And yeah, the "cyborgs" comment, while pithy, wasn't mine.

bilston · 05-03-2021 2:40pm

Clegg wrote: »

I think we've already seen that there are, or at least hadls been, serious problems with player development in Ireland. Munster haven't developed a home grown starter in almost 10 years. Seems to be improving now but a decade is a long time to go without developing a genuine talent.

Ulster have been a bit better with Stockdale coming through more recently. Although that's just one player too. Lots of talent in their squad, but I'm unsure if they're better than whose currently with Ireland. Probably not tbh.

Ah I think there are a few guys who should be considered by Ireland Clegg.

I think Robert Baloucoune could win a lot of caps. He is a very good finisher and seems to have added a bit of bulk during his rehab, but his defensive nous is really encouraging. I think a year on the 7s circuit has really helped him. But for injury he would probably already be capped.

Tom O'Toole is top class away from the scrum. If he continues to improve at the scrum he could be very good.

Michael Lowry is definitely talented enough, but is he big enough, there is only one way to find out. He has been the difference maker for Ulster on quite a few occasions now, both in the Pro 14 and importantly in Europe. He has ran both Toulouse and Racing ragged in the last couple of years. Without wanting to sound like a bitter Ulster fan, if he was from Leinster or Munster there would be pretty loud calls for his inclusion IMO.

Those are the three young Ulster players who I think could break into the squad in the short term. O'Toole is already there obviously.

bilston · 05-03-2021 2:41pm

molloyjh wrote: »

If Ulster can't beat this Leinster team then not only does Ulster Rugby have problems, but so does Irish rugby. It absolutely shouldn't be the case that a province missing 28+ players can go away from home and win against another province unless that province is badly hit by absences as well. My (limited) knowledge of Ulster would suggest several guys missing, but no more than that. Would that be fair?

Leinster might be missing loads of players, but they still have more internationals on show tomorrow than Ulster.

molloyjh · 05-03-2021 2:41pm

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

Bookies gonna book-make. And yeah, the "cyborgs" comment, while pithy, wasn't mine.

Yeah, there were just a couple of comments on development after the post so figured I needed to clarify. I love watching Leinster win and all that but I don't want us to be so dominant that we can still win interpros missing almost 2 full starting teams. That wouldn't be good for Ireland or the other provinces. And I do care a little about the other provinces too!

bilston · 05-03-2021 2:44pm

molloyjh wrote: »

Yeah, there were just a couple of comments on development after the post so figured I needed to clarify. I love watching Leinster win and all that but I don't want us to be so dominant that we can still win interpros missing almost 2 full starting teams. That wouldn't be good for Ireland or the other provinces. And I do care a little about the other provinces too!

I genuinely wonder about that sometimes. I'm not even joking when I asked whether it gets a bit boring being a Leinster fan watching them play in the Pro 14?

Ulster ironically have won as many games this season in the league, but i feels like there is more jeopardy when Ulster play. With Leinster, you just know they're going to win. Its not even close. I think that might get a bit boring after a while.

Paul Smeenus · 05-03-2021 2:49pm

If Leinster and Ulster finished the league on the same points, and Ulster have won one game more than Leinster, would we get the final?

Paul Smeenus · 05-03-2021 2:52pm

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

If Leinster and Ulster finished the league on the same points, and Ulster have won one game more than Leinster, would we get the final?

Just checked - it would. Hmmm...

molloyjh · 05-03-2021 2:53pm

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

If Leinster and Ulster finished the league on the same points, and Ulster have won one game more than Leinster, would we get the final?

Yep. It's points, then games won, then PD, then tries scored, points scored, try difference, suspensions, yellow cards, coin toss.

molloyjh · 05-03-2021 2:58pm

bilston wrote: »

I genuinely wonder about that sometimes. I'm not even joking when I asked whether it gets a bit boring being a Leinster fan watching them play in the Pro 14?

Ulster ironically have won as many games this season in the league, but i feels like there is more jeopardy when Ulster play. With Leinster, you just know they're going to win. Its not even close. I think that might get a bit boring after a while.

I think because we end up seeing so many young lads come through, we have something to enjoy generally. A lot of games feel foregone but I tend to watch player development and then I also enjoy well executed rugby. So I've enjoyed most of it so far. I also recognise that just because we should win a game, doesn't mean that we will. I'll never forget losing to Dragons in the RDS a few years back for example! And even games we aren't expected to win, like that awful SF in 2006, stick in the mind. This won't last forever so I'm enjoying it while I can.

That said, it is different. And I think I noticed it more in the RDS than anywhere. I remember 10-12 years ago when we were a coming force but we still lost our fair share. We felt we were going somewhere but most games were still a real contest. The atmosphere in the RDS was far better. We were more raucous. We had songs we sang or chants about individuals and all that stuff. It's gotten very sedate since then.

arsebiscuits1 · 05-03-2021 2:59pm

molloyjh wrote: »

Yep. It's points, then games won, then PD, then tries scored, points scored, try difference, suspensions, yellow cards, coin toss.

What if the coin lands on its side?

molloyjh · 05-03-2021 3:01pm

arsebiscuits1 wrote: »

What if the coin lands on its side?

Then Leinster win.

Paul Smeenus · 05-03-2021 3:03pm

molloyjh wrote: »

Then Leinster win.

Probably mandated by the bloody IRFU.

Dave_The_Sheep · 05-03-2021 3:04pm

molloyjh wrote: »

It's gotten very sedate since then.

It has been very poor the last year or so alright.

I'd echo what Molloy says, yeah there's sometimes a sense of a procession but you're getting to watch a boat load of different players each week, which has it's own appeal.

arsebiscuits1 · 05-03-2021 3:05pm

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

Probably mandated by the bloody IRFU.

Don't be daft.

If the IRFU actually had any say it in the criteria would be:

Leinster win, points, then games won, then PD, then tries scored, points scored, try difference, suspensions, yellow cards, coin toss, apocalypse, Cooney getting picked for Ireland, Ulster win

Paul Smeenus · 05-03-2021 3:07pm

Dave_The_Sheep wrote: »

It has been very poor the last year or so alright.

I'd echo what Molloy says, yeah there's sometimes a sense of a procession but you're getting to watch a boat load of different players each week, which has it's own appeal.

Must be exciting, seeing a whirlwind of all sorts of talented new young bucks that are far too good for the Pro14.

Dave_The_Sheep · 05-03-2021 3:08pm

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

Must be exciting, seeing a whirlwind of all sorts of talented new young bucks that are far too good for the Pro14.

It's tough alright.

Above international standard, really.

Paul Smeenus · 05-03-2021 3:11pm

World class at restarts one week, hoofing them out on the full the next. It's so fickle and elusive, being world class like that.

arsebiscuits1 · 05-03-2021 3:14pm

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

World class at restarts one week, hoofing them out on the full the next. It's so fickle and elusive, being world class like that.

"World class" isn't about things as trivial as performances and ability.

It's a state of mind.

Ulster vs. Leinster, Saturday 6th March, 19.35 (Eir Sport 1)

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