Relaxation of Restrictions, Part IX *Read OP For Mod Warnings*

francogarbanzo wrote: »

ArthurDayne wrote: »

It’s been a good discussion so I will try not to specifically combat any of your points in the hope of having “the last word”. Completely agree, and it has probably been the absolute major source of my frustration on this thread, that people are far far too quick to take moral high grounds on these threads. A lot of my posts on here are aimed specifically at trying to poke holes in the arguments of those who come on pointing fingers (like yesterday, those who claimed that young people meeting and partying “don’t care about who dies” etc). The inference is that they are the caring “good” people, and the opponents of lockdown are invariably uncaring and have no regard for suffering so long as they can have a pint.

If those who believe that the lockdown, or rather the duration and severity of it, was justified — they have been quick to make opponents of that view “own” the moral responsibility for those who die of Covid. Personally, I’ve never shied away from owning it, because I have to. It would be intellectual cowardice if I did not. But I am a believer in proportionality, and that proportionality extends to things that occur even in times of crisis. We must always remember that what spurred the call for lockdown last year was not an increase of 3,000 or so in the average annual deaths of mainly elderly people — it was the belief that the death toll would quickly spin into absolutely cataclysmic territory. People like Sam McConkey were talking tens of thousands and these kind of projections, after the initial shock of scenes In Italy, prompted the view that lockdown and all the destruction it would yield was still a better pathway. I simply do not believe that the measures we have taken have been proportionate to the risk — and while perhaps more understandable in urgency — after the passage of a year the continued imposition of a 5km travel ban (among other things) do not in my view stand between us and an utter sustained cataclysm. I doubt that you will agree with that, and I appreciate that in your own application of proportionality you have deemed the Irish strategy to be largely (and perhaps not perfectly) justified because it saved lives in the immediate short term.

So while I agree that we have to try move into the future positively, I think that this cannot be a slogan or means for people to disown the moral responsibility for the positions they advocate. Where poverty is exacerbated, where the quality and length of life of people is diminished by the immediate and long terms effects of the shutdown around the world — you must own the sense of moral responsibility, as I and many others have been made to own ours. As the consequences of lockdown unfold, and the extent of the suffering that an abruptly changed world will inflict mainly on the poor and the young (and in the full complexity of the world, it likely will lead to a least some level of death and perhaps conflict in certain places). Even if you believe that this suffering is a lesser evil than what might have been a higher Covid death toll, you still cannot shirk the moral responsibility by simply telling people that they have to be more positive and that bad things happen anyway.

But as I said, it’s been a good discussion and you argue well. If more people took the time to explore eachothers’ views on here, rather than claiming that NPHET are a tyrannical cult or that young people are uncaring degenerates for cracking up in a time of unprecedented and sustained suppression of what it means to be young, we would have much healthier discussion.

Hector Savage wrote: »

Very worrying about the bar being raised for restrictions as things get better virus wise - plus vaccines being ramped out.

Look at New Zealand , barely any covid life pretty much normal, and they get one case and the whole city of Auckland goes into a 7 day lockdown.
Is that what we have to look forward to here ? as numbers plummet due to vaccines, as soon as 1,2 new cases appear is it all out panic and shutdown ?

And what stage will they not care about the odd case as the population at large is vaccinated.

Boggles wrote: »

Really?

Why would you think the Far Right would want to tell lies and try sow an narrative that the establishment is not be trusted?

facehugger99 wrote: »

100%

I traveled in both Spain and Italy last summer and it was striking how different both were to Ireland.

Northern Italy in particular, the supposed European epicenter of this deadly virus had swimming pools, water parks and nightclubs open. People were actually 'living with Covid'.

Meanwhile in backward Ireland people were still tuning in for the daily angelus misery-fest where case numbers were read out with po-faced solemnity and George Lee blubbed about R-numbers. We have a far higher proportion of the population under the age of 65 and we have cowered in terror from this social-media pandemic. We have a weak Government and weak-minded fools cheering them on

Ironically it's the lockdown-cheerleaders, who could have most done with seeing what is happening in other countries, that would have most benefited from coming out from under their beds and doing a bit of traveling.

Sobit1964 wrote: »

Just stop. You have been caught out. Don't double down with the 'Far Right' rubbish. It's not credible, nor are your posts claiming it is.

SnuggyBear wrote: »

He's just embarrassing himself at this stage.

The vast majority of those who took part belong to a number of factions including anti-vaccine, anti-mask and anti-lockdown far-right, far right groups, and those intent on trouble and disorder

normanoffside wrote: »

@Boggles,
Here's just one example of the right-wing racists at the protest on Saturday

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kMYY0EgmN-c

Boggles wrote: »

Gript Media?

Deleted User wrote: »

Was it ever on the rails?

normanoffside wrote: »

Honestly did you see anyone in his videos reacting badly to him because of the colour of his skin?

If what the Garda Commissioner said is true then surely at least one person would have reacted hostilely towards him.

The vast majority of those who took part belong to a number of factions including anti-vaccine, anti-mask and anti-lockdown far-right, far right groups, and those intent on trouble and disorder

Boggles wrote: »

I never suggested nor did Harris that the weirdo's that showed up who were telling the guards they were Luciferians trying to depopulate Ireland by killing people with vaccines, or RTE were grounding up babies were racist.

Boggles wrote: »

You mean like the few 100 racists and weirdos who broke the law, attacked people with bottles and fireworks and stood around singing Aslan's Crazy World whilst simultaneously shouting out "Shove your F'ing Vaccines up your Arsé"?

I'm going to head out and a limb here and suggest, no.

Boggles wrote: »

Do you think the general populous was representative of the collection of weirdos and racists who showed up to riot on Saturday?

Boggles wrote: »

So it's the gubbermints fault these people are racist violent mentally unwell scum?

:rolleyes: