The way forward for LC2021

Rosita · 19-02-2021 04:06PM

Bobtheman wrote: »

Dispassionately based on what? A few essays?!

A fair question regarding the lack of reliable data but still judgements, whatever underpins them, should presumably be dispassionate and objective. Liking the cut of someone's jib shouldn't be a consideration. In other words the objectivity of the state exams shouldn't be a decisive factor as surely PGs should attempt to mirror that distance notwithstanding the shortage of credible supporting evidence.

Treppen · 19-02-2021 04:21PM

Newbie20 wrote: »

I’m torn on the mocks situation. On one hand it’s usually the best indicator you have from all results and it gives them a trial run for the Leaving.
But between the mocks probably being available somewhere online and the fact that they can do them while having books open at home, the results just can’t be trusted. Are schools that were proceeding with them doing them at home? That’s what ours were supposed to be doing. We’ll hear Monday if there’s any change to that. It’s messy.
If you knew for definite that we were back with 6th on the 1st of March, it could be an option to do them then in school.
But it’s quite late then to be losing class time and Easter is fast approaching.

No way mocks should be allowed to be done at home. If they're being used as a predictor it sets the competition on an unfair playing field.

As regards mocks papers bring leaked , it's incumbent on all teachers to alter some of the questions and tell students they will be doing so.

I never understood the mentality of teachers who never proofed the mocks and just handed them out without thinking. Any mocks I've ever gotten v I've tweaked then to test for different things and push the focus on certain areas.

rainbowtrout · 19-02-2021 04:32PM

History Queen wrote: »

Surely not! That would go against everything the Department stands for! :pac:

:pac: :pac: :pac:

rainbowtrout · 19-02-2021 04:34PM

jimmytwotimes 2013 wrote: »

Wouldn't be like an ETB to jump the gun.

Different approaches to remaining assessments could cause hassle. There isn't a common approach, bet some ETBs will run Easter exams as apparent high-stakes exams for predictive whereas others might not.

Never mind the fact that students need to be doing prep for orals, practicals etc on top of these assessments

To be fair this came from ETBI not my own ETB and the timeline appears to follow the other detail that was in the media

Mrsmum · 19-02-2021 04:52PM

Treppen wrote: »

No way mocks should be allowed to be done at home. If they're being used as a predictor it sets the competition on an unfair playing field.

As regards mocks papers bring leaked , it's incumbent on all teachers to alter some of the questions and tell students they will be doing so.

I never understood the mentality of teachers who never proofed the mocks and just handed them out without thinking. Any mocks I've ever gotten v I've tweaked then to test for different things and push the focus on certain areas.

Please take this as a question rather than a criticism but if a school runs mocks, does that not disadvantage their students in comparison to students in schools where they are not running mocks. If they were all doing mocks that would be different but if not everyone, then some students would be more or less doing a LC via mocks for their grades and it's not like their CG would carry any more weight than that of other students who didn't do the mocks.
I guess it's a factor of the unpredictability of predictive grades.

Warbeastrior · 19-02-2021 05:11PM

Are leaving certs happy to return to school?
I remember hearing that a big majority are happy working from home.
Could have been false information tho.

Mardy Bum · 19-02-2021 05:20PM

Warbeastrior wrote: »

Are leaving certs happy to return to school?
I remember hearing that a big majority are happy working from home.
Could have been false information tho.

They will want to return for certain subjects. Hopefully, classes are blocked regardless of how it affects other years. OL English, Irish, maths, MFL will all likely be empty. HL optional subjects should be well attended.

wirelessdude01 · 19-02-2021 05:25PM

Warbeastrior wrote: »

Are leaving certs happy to return to school?
I remember hearing that a big majority are happy working from home.
Could have been false information tho.

I read somewhere that the 'student voice' don't want to return to face to face class.

r93kaey5p2izun · 19-02-2021 05:34PM

Warbeastrior wrote: »

Are leaving certs happy to return to school?
I remember hearing that a big majority are happy working from home.
Could have been false information tho.

Many of the prominent ones on social media are looking to stay at home. These individuals demanded that would not be sent back to the classroom if other groups stayed at home when cases were high after Christmas, for safety reasons. They then made a show of themselves abusing teachers and saying they were "too lazy" to teach them in person but wanted exams to go ahead. They are now insisting that they won't go back and should continue online learning.

wirelessdude01 · 19-02-2021 05:38PM

Nyla Worried Son wrote: »

Many of the prominent ones on social media are looking to stay at home. These individuals demanded that would not be sent back to the classroom if other groups stayed at home when cases were high after Christmas, for safety reasons. They then made a show of themselves abusing teachers and saying they were "too lazy" to teach them in person but wanted exams to go ahead. They are now insisting that they won't go back and should continue online learning.

I now await the campaign to fully cancel the written exams.

PoolDude · 19-02-2021 05:39PM

rainbowtrout wrote: »

On the other hand, I rarely get junior classes because I teach 2 LC subjects and TYs, so I often only teach students for the first time in fifth year. Lots of students knuckle down after the mocks and I'd say with the announcement yesterday there will be a flurry of work in the coming weeks.

I take your point that for a lot of students you have a fair idea of how they will do, but I personally wouldn't be finalising any results for a couple of months yet.

We got an email from the ETBI this morning via our principal that sets out a timeline for May. It says student work can be considered for PG up to 14th May. It also confirms schools close on 28th May and the first week of June is for PG alignment process.

One interesting point in it says

The SEC Accredited Grade and examinations outcomes will have regard
to the pattern of results in 2020 and previously, with more details of the
process to be determined by the Minister having regard to advice from
the SEC

So results this year or after they are back in class don't count?

wirelessdude01 · 19-02-2021 05:41PM

PoolDude wrote: »

So results this year or after they are back in class don't count?

Doesn't that relate to pattern of previous leaving cert results?

Mrsmum · 19-02-2021 06:08PM

Nyla Worried Son wrote: »

Many of the prominent ones on social media are looking to stay at home. These individuals demanded that would not be sent back to the classroom if other groups stayed at home when cases were high after Christmas, for safety reasons. They then made a show of themselves abusing teachers and saying they were "too lazy" to teach them in person but wanted exams to go ahead. They are now insisting that they won't go back and should continue online learning.

Demanding to stay at home after Christmas for h&s was by anyone's standard the right thing to do. Teachers and parents wanted that too so no fault to them there.
Their argument as regards teachers not wanting Pg but not wanting to teach in class was part of their fight to get Pg. Leaving any abuse aside, they were making the point that if teachers expected them to do written exams, as was teachers' stance, then doing the LC exams required face to face teaching,which they weren't getting and knowing that teachers were uncomfortable being back in schools while cases were high.They are smart and use the arguments available to them.
Now because pgs is on the table, being back in school isn't as necessary for lots of them but that isn't a contradiction of their view when they didn't have that choice.

r93kaey5p2izun · 19-02-2021 06:20PM

Mrsmum wrote: »

Demanding to stay at home after Christmas for h&s was by anyone's standard the right thing to do. Teachers and parents wanted that too so no fault to them there.
Their argument as regards teachers not wanting Pg but not wanting to teach in class was part of their fight to get Pg. Leaving any abuse aside, they were making the point that if teachers expected them to do written exams, as was teachers' stance, then doing the LC exams required face to face teaching,which they weren't getting and knowing that teachers were uncomfortable being back in schools while cases were high.They are smart and use the arguments available to them.
Now because pgs is on the table, being back in school isn't as necessary for lots of them but that isn't a contradiction of their view when they didn't have that choice.

"Leaving any abuse aside". No. I don't think I will. It says everything about these individuals, some of whom I know personally. Not smart at all to make such a disgrace of themselves publicly.

rainbowtrout · 19-02-2021 06:27PM

Mrsmum wrote: »

Demanding to stay at home after Christmas for h&s was by anyone's standard the right thing to do. Teachers and parents wanted that too so no fault to them there.
Their argument as regards teachers not wanting Pg but not wanting to teach in class was part of their fight to get Pg. Leaving any abuse aside, they were making the point that if teachers expected them to do written exams, as was teachers' stance, then doing the LC exams required face to face teaching,which they weren't getting and knowing that teachers were uncomfortable being back in schools while cases were high.They are smart and use the arguments available to them.
Now because pgs is on the table, being back in school isn't as necessary for lots of them but that isn't a contradiction of their view when they didn't have that choice.

No, not leaving abuse aside. Some of them were utterly disgraceful and their campaign goes far beyond doing what is right or necessary during a pandemic.

wirelessdude01 · 19-02-2021 06:34PM

Nyla Worried Son wrote: »

"Leaving any abuse aside". No. I don't think I will. It says everything about these individuals, some of whom I know personally. Not smart at all to make such a disgrace of themselves publicly.

For intelligent people they are quare thick of Joe the reach of social media could come back to bite them in later life.

Treppen · 19-02-2021 06:45PM

PoolDude wrote: »

So results this year or after they are back in class don't count?

Screw that, this year teachers will decide what counts... Then SEC can do the bumping

Str8outtaWuhan · 19-02-2021 07:25PM

Interesting seeing teachers opinions on mocks

on the one hand if you do them you waste 2 weeks of time with the students

on the other hand you prepare your students for sitting 3 hr exams etc

on the one hand you get a good taste of what to give them for their PG

on the other hand they might cheat

r93kaey5p2izun · 19-02-2021 07:35PM

Mrsmum wrote: »

Honestly there is a logic to needing face to face teaching for a traditional LC and not needing it as badly for C.G. I'm sure they would say they got C.G for the disadvantaged students so there is no lack of concern. Many of the disadvantaged students were themselves telling their situations and why they wanted predictive grades and that they did not feel fit to sit the exams. I don't think it is a solid conclusion that they sold them out as you seem to think.

Well, since I know some of these prominent individuals who carried on as described, I'm confident in my assessment of them as users.

But anyway, plenty want to sit the exams. They need classes as much now as ever. And of course those fleeing bad homes need school and classes PG or exams aside. As these privileged teenagers and their parents and IT columnists have been campaigning about so passionately.

rainbowtrout · 19-02-2021 07:55PM

Mrsmum wrote: »

Honestly there is a logic to needing face to face teaching for a traditional LC and not needing it as badly for C.G. I'm sure they would say they got C.G for the disadvantaged students so there is no lack of concern. Many of the disadvantaged students were themselves telling their situations and why they wanted predictive grades and that they did not feel fit to sit the exams. I don't think it is a solid conclusion that they sold them out as you seem to think.

Really are you sure? Because what I see is a small group of vocal students getting what they wanted.

Read the article from yesterday's times interviewing students on their opinions on the outcome. None of them mention disadvantaged students. Many of them mention how hard they have worked over the last two years and that they do well in class etc. Those are not the disadvantaged. At least four of them are members of the ISSU committee, so they are supposed to be representing students.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/i-can-finally-breathe-students-on-plans-for-leaving-cert-2021-1.4488833

Mrsmum · 19-02-2021 08:13PM

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Really are you sure? Because what I see is a small group of vocal students getting what they wanted.

Read the article from yesterday's times interviewing students on their opinions on the outcome. None of them mention disadvantaged students. Many of them mention how hard they have worked over the last two years and that they do well in class etc. Those are not the disadvantaged. At least four of them are members of the ISSU committee, so they are supposed to be representing students.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/i-can-finally-breathe-students-on-plans-for-leaving-cert-2021-1.4488833

I didn't mean to suggest they got CG only for disadvantaged students although it probably reads that way. But is anyone doubting that the vast vast majority of students aren't absolutely delighted with the outcome.

PoolDude · 20-02-2021 01:04AM

At the end of the day students didn’t get choice unless they trust and are happy to go with the PG process (as Rosita pointed out to me there is a cohort that this applies to). For students looking to do well or those who don’t trust the PG process (which seems to be most teachers and based on that survey that was posted most students) there is simply two chances to get a good grade (glass half full). It is a sham in that regard as those students have to apply themselves to two processes at the same time and teachers have to figure out how to manage a two track system.

spurious · 20-02-2021 02:22AM

Reminding people of the very useful 'ignore' feature and the private forum.
Thread re-opened.

Newbie20 · 20-02-2021 02:49AM

ASTI have e-mailed a survey looking to see if members are happy with the the Leaving Cert Exams / Calculated Grades.

History Queen · 20-02-2021 08:53AM

Newbie20 wrote: »

ASTI have e-mailed a survey looking to see if members are happy with the the Leaving Cert Exams / Calculated Grades.

I haven't heard anything from TUI, I wonder will they do similar. Have to say my own feelings are that outstanding issues (such as the orals, details re how assessment should work etc.) need to be addressed but students have now been told of a system, that on the face of it, they are fairly happy with, I think we need to try make it work as best we can. I'd hate to see a non-cooperation directive or similar at this stage.

PoolDude · 20-02-2021 08:58AM

History Queen wrote: »

I haven't heard anything from TUI, I wonder will they do similar. Have to say my own feelings are that outstanding issues (such as the orals, details re how assessment should work etc.) need to be addressed but students have now been told of a system, that on the face of it, they are fairly happy with, I think we need to try make it work as best we can. I'd hate to see a non-cooperation directive or similar at this stage.

Agree. Maybe I’m being cynical but wouldn’t a survey at this stage set everything up for the answer they want to hear and trouble or just be able to you did it? I would think by all means survey members but isn’t it incumbent on you to first get more details as committed to in the process you are still part of and when you have that share it plus your survey.

History Queen · 20-02-2021 09:11AM

PoolDude wrote: »

Agree. Maybe I’m being cynical but wouldn’t a survey at this stage set everything up for the answer they want to hear and trouble or just be able to you did it? I would think by all means survey members but isn’t it incumbent on you to first get more details as committed to in the process you are still part of and when you have that share it plus your survey.

Depends on the wording of the survey I suppose.

Edit: I do think it is good practice to get the views of members on the ground.

Newbie20 · 20-02-2021 09:46AM

There’s just 4 questions in the survey. All yes or no answers as to whether you agree with the approach, are you willing to participate in the process etc. I’d agree with you History Queen in that there are certainly things they need to work on improving but like you I’d hate to see them say we won’t engage.

Random sample · 20-02-2021 10:06AM

Newbie20 wrote: »

ASTI have e-mailed a survey looking to see if members are happy with the the Leaving Cert Exams / Calculated Grades.

Have they given the option to share the survey with other members?

Newbie20 · 20-02-2021 10:32AM

I don’t know about sharing but it has come from the General Secretary Kieran Christie so I assumed it should have gone to all members.

The way forward for LC2021

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