Average V Median wage Ireland?

Benedict · 18-02-2021 12:34PM

crossman47 wrote: »

But if you read CSO's methodological notes, you will see it is true. They survey employers and get from them aggregate data for their employees, aggregates of employment, earnings and hours worked. They do not collect data on age, nationality, etc as part of this survey.

I suppose theoretically they could ask employers for individualised data but there would be howls of outrage from employers at the burden of compliance. That is why CSO use Revenue for individual data and, as you have been told over and over again, Revenue do not distinguish full and part time.

As another poster has said, countries who produce a median probably do it by means of a survey of individuals. It would be a nice extra to have but hardly a priority given all the demands on CSO.

Yes, I agree that I have probably pushed this as far as it can go. But my thanks to all for the helpful and knowledgeable contributions made.

I must say I've learned a fair bit from this post - especially that I'm not the only one who can't get my hands on the median FTW wage figures - although Prof Regan (UCD) reckons that 35k would be a good estimate.
I suppose what annoys me a bit is that I have actually heard several FTWs who were on c40k bemoaning the fact that most FTW were earning more than they were when in fact they were earning more than most FTW.

But there you go, politicians like to pretend workers are doing better than they really are.

C'est la vie!

crossman47 · 18-02-2021 12:56PM

Benedict wrote: »

Yes, I agree that I have probably pushed this as far as it can go. But my thanks to all for the helpful and knowledgeable contributions made.

I must say I've learned a fair bit from this post - especially that I'm not the only one who can't get my hands on the median FTW wage figures - although Prof Regan (UCD) reckons that 35k would be a good estimate.
I suppose what annoys me a bit is that I have actually heard several FTWs who were on c40k bemoaning the fact that most FTW were earning more than they were when in fact they were earning more than most FTW.

But there you go, politicians like to pretend workers are doing better than they really are.

C'est la vie!

My own estimate given earlier was that it was in the region of 38k to 42k. Politicians will always try to put a gloss on things when they are in government but, in all honesty, I doubt if most of them appreciate the mean/median argument. They are just using the figure available.

Cyrus · 18-02-2021 12:59PM

Benedict wrote: »

Yes, I agree that I have probably pushed this as far as it can go. But my thanks to all for the helpful and knowledgeable contributions made.

I must say I've learned a fair bit from this post - especially that I'm not the only one who can't get my hands on the median FTW wage figures - although Prof Regan (UCD) reckons that 35k would be a good estimate.
I suppose what annoys me a bit is that I have actually heard several FTWs who were on c40k bemoaning the fact that most FTW were earning more than they were when in fact they were earning more than most FTW.

But there you go, politicians like to pretend workers are doing better than they really are.

C'est la vie!

if the median of annual earnings in 2018 was just over 36k how would the median of FTW be less than that?

moon2 · 18-02-2021 12:59PM

Benedict wrote: »

I must say I've learned a fair bit from this post - especially that I'm not the only one who can't get my hands on the median FTW wage figures - although Prof Regan (UCD) reckons that 35k would be a good estimate.

Have you, or anyone else, gotten in touch with the CSO and asked them directly? If you really want to dig into the median, this is the most likely way of getting more info on the topic.

I'm interested, but not so interested that I want to badger them with requests

HillCloudHop · 18-02-2021 08:03PM

Does the median include people working 1 day week?

Peregrinus · 19-02-2021 03:05AM

HillCloudHop wrote: »

Does the median include people working 1 day week?

Benedict is explicitly looking for the median earnings for a full-time worker so, no. The median Benedict wants does not include people working 1 day a week.

But the median earnings for all workers would of course include all full-time and part-time workers so, yes, that figure would include those working 1 day a week , and those working five days a week plus lots of overtime, and everyone in between.

stefanovich · 19-02-2021 08:50AM

Median wage per hour would be interesting.

Peregrinus · 19-02-2021 09:01AM

stefanovich wrote: »

Median wage per hour would be interesting.

It would. But it requires even more granular data than median wage for full-time workers, so won't be easy to find. You might find median hourly rates for certain industries or sectors, based on employer surveys, but I wouldn't be wildly optimistic.

Benedict · 19-02-2021 09:02AM

As I say, I wouldn't be inclined to push this any further - the CSO system is unlikely to change on account of Benedict. But clearly I'm not the only one who can't find data on the median wage for FTW. In the IT article I have quoted, Leo not merely refers to "average" wage of FTW but also to "average people". And it is only my opinion of course but I feel that most workers interpret this as meaning that if you're earning less than 49k, you're sub-normal in wage terms. Okay, maybe they shouldn't interpret it that way but I think they do and I think it's likely that those who tout this message know perfectly well what perception they are creating and that it is incorrect.

The nearest I've come to a credible estimate of the median - (the norm?) is Prof. Regan's 35k - a long way from 49k - and if the public adopted this figure instead of believing that most were swanning 'round with the guts of 1k in their pocket each week, they might see things differently.

Those in power know perfectly well that the terms "average" and "median" are perceived by the public as one and the same. Maybe the public shouldn't perceive it that way but as Judge Judy would say "coulda woulda shoulda".

beggars_bush · 19-02-2021 10:45AM

Surely a parliamentary question would acquire the necessary information?
Or FOI request?

Cyrus · 19-02-2021 10:54AM

Benedict wrote: »

As I say, I wouldn't be inclined to push this any further - the CSO system is unlikely to change on account of Benedict. But clearly I'm not the only one who can't find data on the median wage for FTW. In the IT article I have quoted, Leo not merely refers to "average" wage of FTW but also to "average people". And it is only my opinion of course but I feel that most workers interpret this as meaning that if you're earning less than 49k, you're sub-normal in wage terms. Okay, maybe they shouldn't interpret it that way but I think they do and I think it's likely that those who tout this message know perfectly well what perception they are creating and that it is incorrect.

The nearest I've come to a credible estimate of the median - (the norm?) is Prof. Regan's 35k - a long way from 49k - and if the public adopted this figure instead of believing that most were swanning 'round with the guts of 1k in their pocket each week, they might see things differently.

Those in power know perfectly well that the terms "average" and "median" are perceived by the public as one and the same. Maybe the public shouldn't perceive it that way but as Judge Judy would say "coulda woulda shoulda".

ill ask again as maybe i am being thick but

if the median of annual earnings in 2018 was just over 36k how would the median of FTW be less than that?

zell12 · 19-02-2021 11:01AM

Well this Senator says:
The median wage is €28,500.
and this TD says:
of two workers on a median wage of €30k, that is, a combined income of €60k

Cyrus · 19-02-2021 11:07AM

zell12 wrote: »

Well this Senator says:
The median wage is €28,500.
and this TD says:
of two workers on a median wage of €30k, that is, a combined income of €60k

you know how you know Paul Murphy is lying?

he is speaking

19-02-2021 11:08AM

For what it's worth OP it always irritates me that it is the average figures which are always given instead of the median. Even when I try to search very specifically on google for the median it keeps giving me the average. Nobody gives a f'uck about the average - median is all that is relevant. And median net income at that.

hots · 19-02-2021 11:12AM

Benedict wrote: »

Those in power know perfectly well that the terms "average" and "median" are perceived by the public as one and the same.

I think this thread is showing that there's a small minority who don't understand the difference.

Benedict · 19-02-2021 11:13AM

beggars_bush wrote: »

Surely a parliamentary question would acquire the necessary information?
Or FOI request?

In 2007, there was a widespread perception that if you couldn't take your family to Florida twice a year and have a Lexus in the driveway there was something wrong with you.

The Irish people should know better than most that "perceptions" should carry a health warning!

Now, the perception is that if you're an FTW earning less than e950 a week you should wear a paper bag over your head in public.

This is despite the fact that most FTW don't earn anything like that amount!

stefanovich · 19-02-2021 11:13AM

Deleted User wrote: »

For what it's worth OP it always irritates me that it is the average figures which are always given instead of the median. Even when I try to search very specifically on google for the median it keeps giving me the average. Nobody gives a f'uck about the average - median is all that is relevant. And median net income at that.

That'd be an interesting figure. People raging against high salaries might rage less if they saw actual take home pay.

stefanovich · 19-02-2021 11:14AM

Benedict wrote: »

In 2007, there was a widespread perception that if you couldn't take your family to Florida twice a year and have a Lexus in the driveway there was something wrong with you.

The Irish people should know better than most that "perceptions" should carry a health warning!

Now, the perception is that if you're an FTW earning less than e950 a week you should wear a paper bag over your head in public.

This is despite the most FTW don't earn anything like that amount!

950 gross? That's 49,400. Is that what making it looks like in Ireland?

Not a high salary.

crossman47 · 19-02-2021 11:47AM

Cyrus wrote: »

if the median of annual earnings in 2018 was just over 36k how would the median of FTW be less than that?

I agree. I posted earlier I would estimate the f/t median as in the range 38 to 42 K.

Benedict · 19-02-2021 11:50AM

stefanovich wrote: »

950 gross? That's 49,400. Is that what making it looks like in Ireland?

Not a high salary.

Perhaps you wouldn't say "making it". But e49,400 for an FTW is pretty good and I don't think people realise this.

Watch "How to be Good With Money" (RTE last night). A couple, early 30's, both professional FtW, (one a professional public servant), joint take home pay 4.8k pm.

The median wage for the fire service (FTW public service) is 35k. (And remember public service workers are notoriously better paid than private sector).

We need to smell the coffee!

19-02-2021 12:25PM

Smell the coffee?
How so?
What exactly are you blathering on about.....

hots · 19-02-2021 02:19PM

Benedict wrote: »

(And remember public service workers are notoriously better paid than private sector).

Geuze · 19-02-2021 02:40PM

stefanovich wrote: »

Median wage per hour would be interesting.

Here you go:

https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/databrowser/view/earn_ses_hourly/default/table?lang=en

Structure of earnings survey: hourly earnings
online data code: EARN_SES_HOURLY

Median hourly earnings

2014 = 20.16

2018 = 16.59

I mentioned these before on this thread, something odd here............

Benedict · 19-02-2021 02:41PM

It's understandable that not everyone can be expected to appreciate the subtleties of the issues raised in this thread - but intelligent and civilised queries are the most likely to merit a response.

Thankfully most have been both civilised and intelligent.

Geuze · 19-02-2021 02:43PM

Benedict wrote: »

Perhaps you wouldn't say "making it". But e49,400 for an FTW is pretty good and I don't think people realise this.

Watch "How to be Good With Money" (RTE last night). A couple, early 30's, both professional FtW, (one a professional public servant), joint take home pay 4.8k pm.

Note that take-home pay on shows like that may be after a whole list of non-tax deductions like:

pensions
AVCs
health insurance
income protection

For example, there are 8 deductions on my payslip, of which three are tax/PRSI.

19-02-2021 02:45PM

Benedict wrote: »

It's understandable that not everyone can be expected to appreciate the subtleties of the issues raised in this thread - but intelligent and civilised queries are the most likely to merit a response.

Thankfully most have been both civilised and intelligent.

Some responses have been quite rude........

Benedict wrote: »

.......

Can you not get your head around the fact that although CSO don't seem to "get" the figures doesn't mean they don't exist?

.........

And some folk have no idea what average means

Benedict wrote: »

When Leo (or someone in a similar position) stands up and announces that the "average wage for an FT worker is almost 49k", I feel sure that the vast majority think this means MOST FT workers (ftw) are earning that amount at least.

...........

Benedict · 19-02-2021 02:47PM

Augeo wrote: »

Smell the coffee?
How so?
What exactly are you blathering on about.....

If you feel that there is something you cannot understand, perhaps you could articulate it more clearly?

I'm sure most would feel inclined to help those who might not understand the subtleties of the issues raised.

19-02-2021 02:53PM

Benedict wrote: »

..........

The median wage for the fire service (FTW public service) is 35k. (And remember public service workers are notoriously better paid than private sector)..........

The median wage for full time firemen is €35k?
OR does your figure include Retained Fire-fighters (Part-Time)

Benedict · 19-02-2021 03:16PM

Correction - Fire Fighters median pay e39,293.

But it still means most are earning a lot less than 49k?

stefanovich · 19-02-2021 03:41PM

Benedict wrote: »

Perhaps you wouldn't say "making it". But e49,400 for an FTW is pretty good and I don't think people realise this.

Watch "How to be Good With Money" (RTE last night). A couple, early 30's, both professional FtW, (one a professional public servant), joint take home pay 4.8k pm.

The median wage for the fire service (FTW public service) is 35k. (And remember public service workers are notoriously better paid than private sector).

We need to smell the coffee!

And a single income household will pay quite a bit more tax on the equivalent gross income. State encouraging both parents to work.

Also - they are in a position where they both have to work and if they have kids they need to pay for childcare.

Much better for the kids to be looked after by a parent when they are young.

Better for the state if husband and wife and childminder all in employment paying tax and increasing GDP.

Average V Median wage Ireland?

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