Relaxation of Restrictions, Part VIII Read OP For Mod Warnings

facehugger99 · 18-02-2021 11:15AM

Deleted User wrote: »

Facts have no place in this discussion

Fact - Irish National debt at the end of 2019 - €175bn

Fact: Irish National Debt end of Jan 2021 - €226bn

Fact: Irish Unemployment rate was 4.9% in 2019.

Fact: In Janurary 2021, the COVID-19 Adjusted Measure of Unemployment could indicate a rate as high as 25.0% if all claimants of the Pandemic Unemployment Payment (PUP) were classified as unemployed.*

Fact: In March 2020, Lockdown was presented as a short-term measure to "flatten the curve" and buy the Health service time to prepare.

Fact: Most people who catch Covid need a test to tell them they've caught Covid

Fact - Most people who died with Covid are older than the age of life expectancy.

Conclusion: We have burned our economy to the ground for no good reason, we have condemned hundreds of thousands to the dole queues, sacrificed thousands of viable businesses and added tens of billions of debt that will weigh us down like a millstone for decades to come.

* Source The CSO - https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/er/mue/monthlyunemploymentjanuary2021/

Penfailed · 18-02-2021 11:16AM

Hellrazer wrote: »

Yep - they might listen. Someone said we might get a few hundred and not thousands but that might be enough to open a few ears.

TD email list attached again.

No, I said you might get tens of people emailing. Not hundreds...and certainly not thousands.

Hellrazer · 18-02-2021 11:19AM

Penfailed wrote: »

No, I said you might get tens of people emailing. Not hundreds...and certainly not thousands.

Apologies for misquoting you then.

18-02-2021 11:19AM

facehugger99 wrote: »

Fact: Most people who catch Covid need a test to tell them they've caught Covid

Fact - Most people who died with Covid are older than the age of life expectancy.

Must have been almost no cases in January based on people needing a test to confirm if they have covid, given only people with covid symptoms were being sent for test

Also, most people who die of all causes are older than the age of life expectancy.

Graham · 18-02-2021 11:22AM

facehugger99 wrote: »

Conclusion: We have burned our economy to the ground for no good reason, we have condemned hundreds of thousands to the dole queues, sacrificed thousands of viable businesses and added tens of billions of debt that will weigh us down like a millstone for decades to come.

aka

the economy has taken a hit while we handle a pandemic. Something we have in common with pretty much every other country on the planet.

Penfailed · 18-02-2021 11:22AM

Hellrazer wrote: »

Apologies for misquoting you then.

Fair play to you for being proactive. I suppose the fact that I'm bemoaning people for not doing anything may actually spur some people to action.

Greenlights16 · 18-02-2021 11:25AM

facehugger99 wrote: »

Fact - Irish National debt at the end of 2019 - €175bn

Fact: Irish National Debt end of Jan 2021 - €226bn

Fact: Irish Unemployment rate was 4.9% in 2019.

Fact: In Janurary 2021, the COVID-19 Adjusted Measure of Unemployment could indicate a rate as high as 25.0% if all claimants of the Pandemic Unemployment Payment (PUP) were classified as unemployed.*

Fact: In March 2020, Lockdown was presented as a short-term measure to "flatten the curve" and buy the Health service time to prepare.

Fact: Most people who catch Covid need a test to tell them they've caught Covid

Fact - Most people who died with Covid are older than the age of life expectancy.

Conclusion: We have burned our economy to the ground for no good reason, we have condemned hundreds of thousands to the dole queues, sacrificed thousands of viable businesses and added tens of billions of debt that will weigh us down like a millstone for decades to come.

* Source The CSO - https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/er/mue/monthlyunemploymentjanuary2021/

Brilliant. You love to see the hard truths like this in black and white.

Penfailed · 18-02-2021 11:38AM

Greenlights16 wrote: »

Brilliant. You love to see the hard truths like this in black and white.

Imagine a country's debt and unemployment rising in the midst of a pandemic. Has any country not?

growleaves · 18-02-2021 11:43AM

Penfailed wrote: »

Imagine a country's debt and unemployment rising in the midst of a pandemic. Has any country not?

There was economic growth in 1968, the year of a pandemic which killed 4 million people.

There is a trend of attributing things that are happening now to 'a pandemic' as if this was par for the course, but no pandemic in history was accompanied by years of destructive impediments to living and trading like what we're currently experiencing.

It would be more honest to say 'Imagine a country's debt and unemployment rising in the midst of a lockdown.' With the proviso that lockdowns are completely new and no one had ever even heard of them before last year.

CalamariFritti · 18-02-2021 11:44AM

PTH2009 wrote: »

Are any other country as scared as the new variants as us ??

It's a joke at this stage and we all know the hard questions won't be asked

Sadly they are although it appears to have become a political bull game to a high degree as it always does.

Just to give you a recent example.

RB Leipzig didnt get to have their Champions League home game on Tuesday in Germany vs Liverpool. The game was played in Hungary.
Reason was that Germany wouldnt allow the British plane into Germany. Non-essential travel ban due to the 'British Variant'.

Only the next day German papers reported that the 'British Variant' makes up between 25% and 40% of the cases in Germany already.

Sense and rationale and truth goes out the window first in any crisis it seems.

paw patrol · 18-02-2021 11:49AM

facehugger99 wrote: »

Fact: Most people who catch Covid need a test to tell them they've caught Covid

Fact - Most people who died with Covid are older than the age of life expectancy.

Sorry to rehash my previous posts.

Those stats are telling and we can add the following ones to that list

As of end of jan - 350 died of covid without a known underlying illness.
Median age of these non underlying illnesses is 84 years old

Underlying conditions or not....only 243 people out of 5million under 65 have died.

Same CSO figures

Please explain to me , how our reaction isn't loss of reason.

With over 200,000 known positives - which could really be up to 1 million cases - given not all cases are known and based on previous research in other countries so lockdown isn't actually stopping this. It's just adding to the madness.

*EDIT

raind pointed out an error in my under 65 number. A typo on my part - i missed a digit
I concede this to his eagle eye - but refuse to yield my sincere opinion that lockdown is a fools errand and we as a nation are being lead by self serving fools afraid to make a decision . Fools who will fall back and blame NPHET when the tide turns but take the kudos when people cheer Tony Superman.
That is the career politican - of which our two heros Micheal and Leo could be the very dictionary definition of

Boggles · 18-02-2021 11:50AM

growleaves wrote: »

There was economic growth in 1968, the year of a pandemic which killed 4 million people.

Link?

18-02-2021 11:55AM

paw patrol wrote: »

Sorry to rehash my previous posts.

Those stats are telling and we can add the following ones to that list

As of end of jan - 350 died of covid without a known underlying illness.
Median age of these non underlying illnesses is 84 years old

Underlying conditions or not....only 22 people out of 5million under 65 have died.

Same CSO figures

Please explain to me , how our reaction isn't loss of reason.

With over 200,000 known positives - which could really be up to 1 million cases - given not all cases are known and based on previous research in other countries so lockdown isn't actually stopping this. It's just adding to the madness.

277

https://www.hpsc.ie/a-z/respiratory/coronavirus/novelcoronavirus/surveillance/epidemiologyofcovid-19inirelandweeklyreports/COVID-19%20Weekly%20Report_%20Week%206_%20Slideset_HPSC_website.pdf

growleaves · 18-02-2021 11:58AM

Boggles wrote: »

Link?

No mate I'm not going to link you to a chart of GDP figures year by year. You can easily verify the information if you don't want to take it on trust.

ypres5 · 18-02-2021 12:02PM

Graham wrote: »

aka

the economy has taken a hit while we handle a pandemic. Something we have in common with pretty much every other country on the planet.

describing what's happening to the economy as taking a hit is a complete understatement. people's jobs have been wiped out and entire sectors may take years to recover if ever

18-02-2021 12:03PM

Penfailed wrote: »

Imagine a country's debt and unemployment rising in the midst of a pandemic. Has any country not?

It really is the sign of an evil society where the lives and health of the elderly are placed above short term economic growth.

Boggles · 18-02-2021 12:07PM

growleaves wrote: »

No mate I'm not going to link you to a chart of GDP figures year by year. You can easily verify the information if you don't want to take it on trust.

Well you had 2 assertions in your post I quoted.

But you have been around along enough at this stage, it's not up to me to back up your statements.

ypres5 · 18-02-2021 12:14PM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

It really is the sign of an evil society where the lives and health of the elderly are placed above short term economic growth.

what do you think pays for the healthcare and services that allow the elderly to receive the treatment they need ? a functioning economy, not one thats at 25% unemployment and may be locked down until the middle of the year

facehugger99 · 18-02-2021 12:15PM

Deleted User wrote: »

It really is the sign of an evil society where the lives and health of the elderly are placed above short term economic growth.

It's the sign of a broken society where fears and hysteria have been stoked by a media desperate to generate clicks, where the employment prospects and educational opportunities of the young have been sacrificed so that certain demographics can 'feel safe'.

Anyone who thinks that adding €50bn to our debt while crashing entire sectors of the economy won't result in real-world, negative health outcomes to our entire population is a fool! How do you think services are funded?

Equating our response to Covid as a choice between lives and economy is a simple argument for the simple-minded, anyone who proposes it is either disingenuous in the extreme or a moron.

Gestureapo · 18-02-2021 12:26PM

facehugger99 wrote: »

It's the sign of a broken society where fears and hysteria have been stoked by a media desperate to generate clicks, where the employment prospects and educational opportunities of the young have been sacrificed so that certain demographics can 'feel safe'.

Anyone who thinks that adding €50bn to our debt while crashing entire sectors of the economy won't result in real-world, negative health outcomes to our entire population is a fool! How do you think services are funded?

Equating our response to Covid as a choice between lives and economy is a simple argument for the simple-minded, anyone who proposes it is either disingenuous in the extreme or a moron.

This pandemic response will surely be a once off

Governments were caught on the hop with a lack of preparedness

Media drove a OTT repsonse

paw patrol · 18-02-2021 12:28PM

Deleted User wrote: »

277

https://www.hpsc.ie/a-z/respiratory/coronavirus/novelcoronavirus/surveillance/epidemiologyofcovid-19inirelandweeklyreports/COVID-19%20Weekly%20Report_%20Week%206_%20Slideset_HPSC_website.pdf

apologies, a typo in my haste.

CSO5th feb - shows 243 now -
Table 1 Profile of COVID-19 Deaths and Cases up to and including Friday February 05 2021

point stand all same we have 5million people

in 2019 census we had 696,300 over age 65 - give or take we have 4.5million 65 and under.
243 deaths isn't significant also consider and we don't have stats on their underlying illnesses

Boggles · 18-02-2021 12:30PM

facehugger99 wrote: »

Anyone who thinks that adding €50bn to our debt while crashing entire sectors of the economy won't result in real-world,

Another one who has no idea how debt works.

But what sectors of our economy have we crashed?

Insolvencies in 2020 compared with 2019 were up only 1%.

The construction industry will be the first back, there is roughly 60% of them currently working, completed dwellings for 2020 was very marginally below 2019, we are investing 10+ billion in capital projects this year.

Large amounts of retail are currently open, what has been deemed non essential will be next to open, with pent up demand and cash on deposit they should recover well in the 2nd half of the year.

Personal services generally always recover.

So that leaves hospitality, so income supports and business supports may have to continue into next year, considering a lot of their turnover is based on foreign tourism.

The alternative to putting certain sectors into hibernation, is to pull business and income supports and let them at it.

That's when you will get actual live register figures and a crashed economy.

That before you even consider the social, educational and health implications of it.

So can we dispense with Economics for Ranters 101, please. It's boring.

Boggles · 18-02-2021 12:31PM

paw patrol wrote: »

apologies, a typo in my haste.

You made the same "typo" the last time you claimed it.

paw patrol · 18-02-2021 12:34PM

Boggles wrote: »

You made the same "typo" the last time you claimed it.

thanks , I did actually consult my older post instead of re-searching cso
so made logical sense to copy this. I can only say sorry so many times cos once I type'd something that didn't make the link from my brain to the keyboard.

But I'll go again - Point stands - the low numbers don't change my point at all.

I thought you'd be more magnanimous tbh

Boggles · 18-02-2021 12:36PM

paw patrol wrote: »

thanks , I did actually consult my older post instead of re-searching cso
so make logical sense to copy this.

Point stands - the low numbers don't change my point at all.

I thought you'd be more magnanimous tbh.

I am, I forgive you.

paw patrol · 18-02-2021 12:37PM

Boggles wrote: »

I am, I forgive you.

see ! progress on all fronts:pac:

growleaves · 18-02-2021 12:38PM

Boggles wrote: »

Well you had 2 assertions in your post I quoted.

But you have been around along enough at this stage, it's not up to me to back up your statements.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_past_and_projected_GDP_(nominal)_per_capita#World_Bank_estimates_between_1960_and_1969

https://www.britannica.com/event/1968-flu-pandemic

Boggles · 18-02-2021 12:46PM

growleaves wrote: »

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_past_and_projected_GDP_(nominal)_per_capita#World_Bank_estimates_between_1960_and_1969

https://www.britannica.com/event/1968-flu-pandemic

Neither of those links back up either of your statements.

growleaves · 18-02-2021 12:51PM

Boggles wrote: »

Neither of those links back up either of your statements.

You are a liar and a timewaster

Boggles · 18-02-2021 12:54PM

growleaves wrote: »

You are a liar and a timewaster

Because you can't back up what you claimed?

Grand so, we will leave there.

Relaxation of Restrictions, Part VIII *Read OP For Mod Warnings*

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Relaxation of Restrictions, Part VIII Read OP For Mod Warnings