Formula 1 2021 - General Discussion Thread (Read 1st post rules)

Harika · 15-02-2021 10:43AM

Red bull was discussing building it's own engine for years but same as McLaren far too expensive. Honda spent 100 million a year while McLaren paid 30 million. Makes financially no sense. Red bull now takes over it as they don't want to go back to Renault as neither Mercedes or Ferrari are willing to jump in. And all the historical development from Honda comes with it for free.
Big question will be what happens 2025, at least there will be four manufacturers there. FIA will either want to focus on keeping the big guns or making engine development achievable again.

racersedge · 15-02-2021 12:01PM

AMKC wrote: »

So Red Bull will now have it's own Power Unit devision and they are only in the sport what 16 to 17 years.
McLaren do not have that and they have been in the 50 years.
You would have to wonder how the hell have McLaren never decided to fund and start up there own power unit devision.

Not quite as cut and dry with that. Sure, Red Bull chased this option (mainly because of the lack of other options and undoubtedly a desire not to go cap in hand back to Renault) and have spoken at times about wanting to go this direction. But the engine feeder was critical to this. Even they spoke out that it was going to be financially unviable to support the engine development without the freeze.

Bigger question will be what will they do at the end of the freeze period. Will they have learned enough to continue with the concept of another engine and have enough of a foundation to limit the costs of developing their own against the other manufacturers. Be also interesting to see what they choose to brand the engine as...

recyclebin · 15-02-2021 12:27PM

How much of this engine will Red Bull actually build though? My guess is that most parts will still be manufactured by Honda or Hondas suppliers.

El_Duderino 09 · 15-02-2021 12:35PM

racersedge wrote: »

Not quite as cut and dry with that. Sure, Red Bull chased this option (mainly because of the lack of other options and undoubtedly a desire not to go cap in hand back to Renault) and have spoken at times about wanting to go this direction. But the engine feeder was critical to this. Even they spoke out that it was going to be financially unviable to support the engine development without the freeze.

Bigger question will be what will they do at the end of the freeze period. Will they have learned enough to continue with the concept of another engine and have enough of a foundation to limit the costs of developing their own against the other manufacturers. Be also interesting to see what they choose to brand the engine as...

Most customer teams just have a dedicated team of engine supplier engineers who are kind of seconded to them. So AM has a set of Mercedes engineers embedded in the team, paid by Mercedes and they control the engine. Since 2014, Red bull always had issues with the Renault engine so instead of having the Renault lads run the engine, they hired engine people to work with them. They did some kind of deal with Ilmor engines. So Red Bull has had more engine people and knowledge in their F1 team than any non-manufacturer. That's why makes it possible to run their own Honda engine for the next few years. Any other team would have had a lot more work to do even consider running their own engine.

So it's possible that they could build their own engine in the future, and particularly if they strip out some of the more complicated parts. They are the best placed of any non-manufacturer team to make their own engines.

afatbollix · 15-02-2021 12:37PM

racersedge wrote: »

Not quite as cut and dry with that. Sure, Red Bull chased this option (mainly because of the lack of other options and undoubtedly a desire not to go cap in hand back to Renault) and have spoken at times about wanting to go this direction. But the engine feeder was critical to this. Even they spoke out that it was going to be financially unviable to support the engine development without the freeze.

Bigger question will be what will they do at the end of the freeze period. Will they have learned enough to continue with the concept of another engine and have enough of a foundation to limit the costs of developing their own against the other manufacturers. Be also interesting to see what they choose to brand the engine as...

Its the same engineers in the same building. Not much is changing except the name over the door.

pjohnson · 15-02-2021 01:05PM

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Most customer teams just have a dedicated team of engine supplier engineers who are kind of seconded to them. So AM has a set of Mercedes engineers embedded in the team, paid by Mercedes and they control the engine. Since 2014, Red bull always had issues with the Renault engine so instead of having the Renault lads run the engine, they hired engine people to work with them. They did some kind of deal with Ilmor engines. So Red Bull has had more engine people and knowledge in their F1 team than any non-manufacturer. That's why makes it possible to run their own Honda engine for the next few years. Any other team would have had a lot more work to do even consider running their own engine.

So it's possible that they could build their own engine in the future, and particularly if they strip out some of the more complicated parts. They are the best placed of any non-manufacturer team to make their own engines.

I remember in 2019 at a race there was at least one guy in Ferrari overalls in Alfa's garage when one of their drivers had an engine issue in a FP1 session.

AMKC · 15-02-2021 02:48PM

Harika wrote: »

Red bull was discussing building it's own engine for years but same as McLaren far too expensive. Honda spent 100 million a year while McLaren paid 30 million. Makes financially no sense. Red bull now takes over it as they don't want to go back to Renault as neither Mercedes or Ferrari are willing to jump in. And all the historical development from Honda comes with it for free.
Big question will be what happens 2025, at least there will be four manufacturers there. FIA will either want to focus on keeping the big guns or making engine development achievable again.

Who are the four manufacturers? I can think of 3 Renault, Mercedes and Ferrari. I have seen rumours that Porsche might join F1 but who knows how true that is. Would love to see Toyota come back but it will probably never happen.
Peugeot maybe now that they getting into Le Mans again is it?

Charlie-Bravo · 15-02-2021 03:41PM

McLaren MCL35M launch today, 15th Feb at 19:00

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8CzwriLVhGI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8CzwriLVhGI

Jordan 199 · 15-02-2021 03:51PM

AMKC wrote: »

Would love to see Toyota come back but it will probably never happen.
Peugeot maybe now that they getting into Le Mans again is it?

I don't see Peugeot ever returning to F1. Their disasterous relationship with Prost put paid to that.

ELM327 · 15-02-2021 04:32PM

AMKC wrote: »

Who are the four manufacturers? I can think of 3 Renault, Mercedes and Ferrari. I have seen rumours that Porsche might join F1 but who knows how true that is. Would love to see Toyota come back but it will probably never happen.
Peugeot maybe now that they getting into Le Mans again is it?

Very unlikely to see a new OEM getting (back) into F1 these days without a reg change.

Look what happened to Honda and Renault

El_Duderino 09 · 15-02-2021 04:38PM

ELM327 wrote: »

Very unlikely to see a new OEM getting (back) into F1 these days without a reg change.

Look what happened to Honda and Renault

Oh definitely. We're looking at the engine 2025 change to see if if anyone else will join. It would be madness to join such a highly developed formula in the meantime.

Missed Apex podcast reported rumours of Audi thinking about joining (again) in 2025. It'll be al about how they change the rules for the new 2025 formula. They first have to agree to change it from 2026 to 2025. Absolutely nothing is guaranteed at the moment, but i imagine they will all want to cut costs in the next few years so they might opt for simplified engines

ELM327 · 15-02-2021 04:46PM

If they went back to simplified cheaper v8 engines without all the electrical nonsense (leave that to formula e) there would be a lot more suppliers interested. The likes of cosworth etc may even come back.

El_Duderino 09 · 15-02-2021 04:48PM

ELM327 wrote: »

If they went back to simplified cheaper v8 engines without all the electrical nonsense (leave that to formula e) there would be a lot more suppliers interested. The likes of cosworth etc may even come back.

Yeah, maybe it's time to let FE take over as the leader of future technology. These are the questions they will have to grapple with in the next formula change

duploelabs · 15-02-2021 04:54PM

ELM327 wrote: »

If they went back to simplified cheaper v8 engines without all the electrical nonsense (leave that to formula e) there would be a lot more suppliers interested. The likes of cosworth etc may even come back.

FIA have commuted to being carbon neutral in the near future so that won't happen

PopePalpatine · 15-02-2021 05:16PM

duploelabs wrote: »

FIA have commuted to being carbon neutral in the near future so that won't happen

That doesn't necessarily rule out ditching the hybrid tech. I doubt Liberty will need to ramp up their tree-planting plans (or whatever they're doing to go carbon neutral) to make up for the extra emissions that'll get spewed out. Even then they could probably neutralise those extra emissions by moving the Canadian GP to before the Americas triple-header of the USA, Mexico and Brazil, or the Abu Dhabi GP next to Bahrain's one.

ELM327 · 15-02-2021 05:21PM

duploelabs wrote: »

FIA have commuted to being carbon neutral in the near future so that won't happen

100% biofuel (like cars in brazil run) is carbon neutral.

Harika · 15-02-2021 05:28PM

AMKC wrote: »

Who are the four manufacturers? I can think of 3 Renault, Mercedes and Ferrari. I have seen rumours that Porsche might join F1 but who knows how true that is. Would love to see Toyota come back but it will probably never happen.
Peugeot maybe now that they getting into Le Mans again is it?

Sorry to disappoint, the fourth for now is red bull....
And I can't see any manufacturers coming into F1 as long as F1 deviates more and more from the market.
Jaguar announcing today that they will only sell electric cars from 2025 shocked me.
The direction is really clear where the market is going, spending hundreds of millions of Euro into a ICU makes no sense. That's why I don't think there is an option to lure anyone else in.
Either F1 goes the route of cheap standardised combustion engines, supported by cutting edge hybrid technology or paints a clear way into full electric.

barryribs · 15-02-2021 05:41PM

Surely the easiest solution is sure for the FIA to standardise the hybrid elements of the system?

It would make it much more enticing to future engine manufacturers that they wouldn't have to spend a couple of hundred million and end up like Honda's fiasco.

This way the FIA can keep the facade of it being environmentally responsible while they fly to tons of equipment to third world countries for races.

quokula · 15-02-2021 06:03PM

duploelabs wrote: »

FIA have commuted to being carbon neutral in the near future so that won't happen

The emissions of F1 engines are completely dwarfed by all the travelling around the world, the crowds at the track, the operation of factories etc. Switching to simpler, cheaper V8s which are much lighter to transport would not in any way blow a hole in any attempt by the FIA to go carbon neutral.

It would lead to better racing, more financial sustainability, much lower barriers to entry for new manufacturers and independent engine suppliers, but these are all reasons why current manufacturers are so dead set against it.

The current engines are extremely specialised and have zero relationship to road technology as it is but even if they had, hybrids are only slowing down uptake of BEVs which are what is really needed for the environment.

The charade that the hybrid Formula is better for the environment or contributes to manufacturer's green credentials is nothing more than marketing spiel.

ricimaki · 15-02-2021 08:02PM

McLaren stream is live
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZSlJGWM4T7s

Jordan 199 · 15-02-2021 08:07PM

Lando is sporting a nice pair of Puma trainers. I love their trainers.

ricimaki · 15-02-2021 08:39PM

So, the new McLaren looks.... the same as the old one....

Edit: Actually, on second look, the rear looks a bit tighter

recyclebin · 15-02-2021 08:47PM

No Mercedes logo on car or any merchandise as far as I can tell.

flazio · 15-02-2021 08:54PM

recyclebin wrote: »

No Mercedes logo on car or any merchandise as far as I can tell.

Force India/Racing Point never carried Merc branding either. Aston Martin are very unlikely to start either. It's only Williams who ever acknowledged the connection with Mercedes Benz

Harika · 15-02-2021 09:00PM

https://mobile.twitter.com/tgruener/status/1361402780632707072

To spot the difference

recyclebin · 15-02-2021 09:04PM

Nose of car a lot more like the Mercedes. Diffuser and rear floor won't look like the photos come race time.

recyclebin · 15-02-2021 09:08PM

flazio wrote: »

Force India/Racing Point never carried Merc branding either. Aston Martin are very unlikely to start either. It's only Williams who ever acknowledged the connection with Mercedes Benz

McLaren did have Renault on the car and merchandise last year. I thought I was going to get away with dusting off my old McLaren Mercedes gear this year :P

flazio · 15-02-2021 09:19PM

Would explain your username, that's for sure.:P

Anesthetize · 15-02-2021 09:42PM

Was hoping for a classic Gulf livery on the McLaren

AMKC · 15-02-2021 09:58PM

That's boring and more ugly. I think last years car looked better.

Formula 1 2021 - General Discussion Thread (Read 1st post rules)

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