Relaxation of Restrictions, Part VIII Read OP For Mod Warnings

15-02-2021 02:27PM

Boggles wrote: »

So you want me to believe like the OP is touting that worlds governance is purposely withholding a hormone that cuts deaths in half because they want people to die?

This is absolutely not what I've been "touting". You are either acting in this thread in bad faith or you've the reading comprehension of a five-year-old in 2021.

iamwhoiam · 15-02-2021 02:29PM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

The government of the UK have never given out Vitamin D to "clinically extremely vulnerable" groups before, and their providing it this year is a direct result of them consulting on it based on Covid benefit. The fact the website doesn't reflect that is a product of the bureaucracy I mentioned in my earlier post and will inevitably be one of the lessons to be learned for the future.

And once again, I don't give a fig what any other country is doing. I don't live there. I care about what Ireland is doing and has done. That doesn't mean I think the citizens of other countries should not be equally infuriated at the death-causing failures of their own governments.

Here's a bunch of medical researchers recommending high vitamin D supplementation: https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/10.1098/rsos.201912

Here's the WHO in 2017 confirming that vitamin D prevents respiratory tract infections: https://www.who.int/elena/titles/commentary/vitamind_pneumonia_children/en/

The Lancet: https://www.thelancet.com/journals/landia/article/PIIS2213-8587(21)00003-6/fulltext concluding with the same point as me, that: "In an ideal world, all health decisions would be made based on overwhelming evidence, but a time of crisis may call for a slightly different set of rules."

Plenty of health experts, doctors and scientists have been talking about vitamin D for months. I haven't said that governments are not recommending it because they "want people to die", and it is vindictive and misleading in the extreme (though not surprising) for you to suggest that I have.

What I have said is that there are two explanations - incompetence (our government are not keeping up with all available data) or malice (they are keeping up and are nonetheless allowing increased deaths to continue). I asked which you think it is, and whether you thought it was in any case rational to trust a government that is demonstrably acting with either incompetence or malice.

You failed to answer either of those questions, and instead went off on a tangent, either voluntarily or driven by your absolute obsession with Gemma O'Doherty, about vitamin C, zinc, a judge in 2020, and oh gosh how could we possibly expect our government to recommend life-saving supplements when nobody else is, as though our country acting like a spotty teenager desperate to fit in is a good thing.

https://www.google.ie/amp/s/extra.ie/2021/01/29/lifestyle/health/government-over-65s-vitamin-d/amp

Boggles · 15-02-2021 02:33PM

Deleted User wrote: »

This is absolutely not what I've been "touting". You are either acting in this thread in bad faith or you've the reading comprehension of a five-year-old in 2021.

It is.

Deleted User wrote: »

Interesting.

Maybe you can be the one to tell me, then, why the government has failed, indeed continues to fail, to provide vitamin D to every citizen and strongly recommend they take it on the basis that it's proven to be effective in significantly reducing mortality from Covid-19?

Considering that Vitamin D is known to be a safe and cheap therapy, and that this information has been strongly suspected since at least March 2020, and at every investigation since has been proven with more confidence, it does rather seem that the only possible reason for not recommending such a simple and effective therapy would be a flagrant disregard for life.

Maybe you know something we don't?

There is a conspiracy forum that caters for such discourse.

I suggest you will get more traction there.

Either way, I think I have exhausted my good will on the subject.

So we will leave it there.

15-02-2021 02:36PM

iamwhoiam wrote: »

https://www.google.ie/amp/s/extra.ie/2021/01/29/lifestyle/health/government-over-65s-vitamin-d/amp

"The Department of Health is today advising that adults aged 65 and older take a vitamin D supplement to ensure they get the essential vitamin D needed for bone and muscle health."

"The FSAI Report acknowledged that there is limited research available and have concluded that there is no evidence to support taking vitamin D supplements to specifically prevent or treat COVID-19."

Not good enough. The advice to take vitamin D for bone and muscle health has been in place for years. People are not going to suddenly decide to care more about their bloody bones in 2021. The government needs to be specific about the fact that it helps with Covid-19. And prior to now should have been specific about the fact that there was a correlation and that the effects of vitamin D in preventing respiratory infections have been known for years.

Graham · 15-02-2021 02:36PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Here's a bunch of medical researchers recommending high vitamin D supplementation: https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/10.1098/rsos.201912

Here's the WHO in 2017 confirming that vitamin D prevents respiratory tract infections: https://www.who.int/elena/titles/commentary/vitamind_pneumonia_children/en/

The Lancet: https://www.thelancet.com/journals/landia/article/PIIS2213-8587(21)00003-6/fulltext

Congratulations, that is some world class cherrypicking.

I can't help but note some of the points you obviously ignored as they don't support your conclusion.

Evidence supporting the role of vitamin D in other health and disease processes, in particular in acute respiratory tract infection, remains patchy. Data from observational studies have suggested that vitamin D supplementation can lower the odds of developing respiratory infections, particularly in vitamin D-deficient groups, but randomised trials have yielded mixed results.

the rapid review concluded that sufficient evidence to support vitamin D supplementation with the aim of preventing or treating COVID-19 was still lacking

15-02-2021 02:37PM

Boggles wrote: »

It is.

There is a conspiracy forum that caters for such discourse.

I suggest you will get more traction there.

Either way, I think I have exhausted my good will on the subject.

So we will leave it there.

Reading comprehension it is, so.

mikekerry · 15-02-2021 02:44PM

Klonker wrote: »

It'll be August by the time government let us out of our counties and probably September by the time can go to a restaurant. Then come October they'll be worried by a 'Winter surge' and start locking us down again. If the rest of Europe are opening up in March (and they will) there will be civil disobedience here if we aren't doing the same by April. Some countries in Europe are already opening up from their less strict rules than ours in the first place.

I haven't left my 5km area since Christmas but come March I'm no longer following that restriction. I'll be travelling inter county to see my family.

There definitely seems to be a sea-shift in peoples tolerance for the lockdowns since the latest lockdown was introduced last week at the same time as our great leader was trying to organise a trip to washington.
We are rudderless and leaderless I think a lot of people have had enough.

iamwhoiam · 15-02-2021 02:49PM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

"The Department of Health is today advising that adults aged 65 and older take a vitamin D supplement to ensure they get the essential vitamin D needed for bone and muscle health."

"The FSAI Report acknowledged that there is limited research available and have concluded that there is no evidence to support taking vitamin D supplements to specifically prevent or treat COVID-19."

Not good enough. The advice to take vitamin D for bone and muscle health has been in place for years. People are not going to suddenly decide to care more about their bloody bones in 2021. The government needs to be specific about the fact that it helps with Covid-19. And prior to now should have been specific about the fact that there was a correlation and that the effects of vitamin D in preventing respiratory infections have been known for years.

Did you miss this bit

The Irish Government is recommending a vitamin D supplement for all those over the age of 65 in order to combat the effects of COVID-19.

15-02-2021 02:57PM

Graham wrote: »

Congratulations, that is some world class cherrypicking.

I can't help but note some of the points you obviously ignored as they don't support your conclusion.

"Evidence supporting the role of vitamin D in other health and disease processes, in particular in acute respiratory tract infection, remains patchy. Data from observational studies have suggested that vitamin D supplementation can lower the odds of developing respiratory infections, particularly in vitamin D-deficient groups, but randomised trials have yielded mixed results."

Mixed results based on different dosing regimen. I imagine this is why the WHO has recommended additional trials testing different dosing regimen.

"the rapid review concluded that sufficient evidence to support vitamin D supplementation with the aim of preventing or treating COVID-19 was still lacking"

And yet suddenly governments around the world are very, very concerned that people in vulnerable groups take their recommended vitamin D dosage. "For bone health" of course.

I'm not cherry-picking anything. The most recent randomised trial, currently pre-pub in The Lancet, has provided very strong evidence of the link between vitamin D deficiency and more serious/fatal Covid-19 disease. Prior to that, a growing body of evidence strongly suggested the same link.

Governments are not recommending it because there is not a large literature of randomised trials proving the link, and their policies rely on that being the case. My argument is that during a time of global health emergency, when it comes to a safe and cheap therapy like Vitamin D supplementation, these policies should be relaxed. Perhaps when people are dying alone on ventilators it is time to allow correlation to be a guide even in the absence of a direct causal link, when the substance under consideration is known to be perfectly safe at large doses and in any case deficient in the population during normal times.

The past year of growing evidence aside, I'm having a very hard time understanding why people are not overjoyed by the news that we now have proof that a safe, cheap and readily available thing as simple as vitamin D could reduce the death rate of Covid-19 by up to 60%, and clambering over themselves to pressure the government to make it more widely known.

WallyGUFC · 15-02-2021 03:01PM

Klonker wrote: »

It'll be August by the time government let us out of our counties and probably September by the time can go to a restaurant. Then come October they'll be worried by a 'Winter surge' and start locking us down again. If the rest of Europe are opening up in March (and they will) there will be civil disobedience here if we aren't doing the same by April. Some countries in Europe are already opening up from their less strict rules than ours in the first place.

I haven't left my 5km area since Christmas but come March I'm no longer following that restriction. I'll be travelling inter county to see my family.

There definitely is a bit of a change the last few weeks but generally, Irish people are way too passive and obedient to engage in any large-scale civil disobedience. More people will travel over county bounds to see family and all of that but there will never be any meaningful protest or widespread disregard of the restrictions. Even if there is, everything will be closed anyway. So many different business sectors treated like shyte but not a peep out of them when it comes to reopening. I thought some of them might have opened en masse a long while back but they don't really seem too bothered.

15-02-2021 03:02PM

iamwhoiam wrote: »

Did you miss this bit

The Irish Government is recommending a vitamin D supplement for all those over the age of 65 in order to combat the effects of COVID-19.

That's the headline. It's not in the article, it's not in Leo's tweet, it's not in the press release, and it's not in the FSAI guidance. So the full extent of the recommendation linking Covid-19 and vitamin D is a single headline at Extra.ie — a decision made by an editor at a single publication, and not by anyone in government.

As I said: not good enough. People are dying because of a failure to be clear about this.

Penfailed · 15-02-2021 03:10PM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

That's the headline. It's not in the article, it's not in Leo's tweet, it's not in the press release, and it's not in the FSAI guidance. So the full extent of the recommendation linking Covid-19 and vitamin D is a single headline at Extra.ie — a decision made by an editor at a single publication, and not by anyone in government.

As I said: not good enough. People are dying because of a failure to be clear about this.

To be fair, that's a bit of a leap. I do see where you are coming from though.

15-02-2021 03:22PM

Penfailed wrote: »

To be fair, that's a bit of a leap. I do see where you are coming from though.

I don't think it is. Much like yourself, I've been taking vitamin D since early last year and advising all my friends and family to do the same with increasing enthusiasm as more and more data has come out. I was probably getting on their last nerve about it by the time winter rolled around.

But I was fairly Covid obsessed in the early part of last year and just had a critically low Vitamin D test, so my internet searches at the time would have naturally brought me to information about Covid-19 and vitamin D. The average person would not have been in that position, and the FSAI guidance doesn't even mention vitamin D's role as an immunomodulator despite it being known for a good few years at this point.

Anyone who's been following Dr. John Cambell for any length of time has known about the link (and yes, I'm aware that he's not a medical doctor but a former nurse with a Ph.D. in healthcare education), meanwhile anyone following government Covid-19 advice would be oblivious. I think that's a failure. And given the most recent study suggesting a 60% reduction in death, a failure that has cost lives.

To be clear, I don't think anyone should be off to the gallows for it. Failures that cost lives will happen during a pandemic scenario where the disease in question can be fatal. They're regrettable, but not unforgivable. Unforgivable is a failure to act and react dynamically during a time of emergency, and learn from mistakes.

Seweryn · 15-02-2021 03:23PM

WallyGUFC wrote: »

There definitely is a bit of a change the last few weeks but generally, Irish people are way too passive and obedient to engage in any large-scale civil disobedience. More people will travel over county bounds to see family and all of that but there will never be any meaningful protest or widespread disregard of the restrictions. Even if there is, everything will be closed anyway. So many different business sectors treated like shyte but not a peep out of them when it comes to reopening. I thought some of them might have opened en masse a long while back but they don't really seem too bothered.

People here have not experienced much suffering from their Government (except constant tax increases), so they are not the quickest to smell a rat.

Secondly, the PUP and social packages are the factors keeping any protest at bay. Remove all financial support and we may have a hope of some movement.

15-02-2021 03:29PM

Graham wrote: »

Congratulations, that is some world class cherrypicking.

I can't help but note some of the points you obviously ignored as they don't support your conclusion.

There is definitely an element of some believing there are easy answers to complex issues. Be it vitamin D, hydroxychloroquine, forsythia....

Penfailed · 15-02-2021 03:30PM

Seweryn wrote: »

People here have not experienced much suffering from their Government (except constant tax increases), so they are not the quickest to smell a rat.

Secondly, the PUP and social packages are the factors keeping any protest at bay. Remove all financial support and we may have a hope of some movement.

They simply can't stop people working without financial support. If lockdown continues, so will the financial support.

FintanMcluskey · 15-02-2021 03:31PM

Deleted User wrote: »

There is definitely an element of some believing there are easy answers to complex issues. Be it vitamin D, hydroxychloroquine, forsythia....

I actually believe, a significant amount of posters don’t actually want a solution to this.

No matter how simple it may be

Boggles · 15-02-2021 03:33PM

FintanMcluskey wrote: »

I actually believe, a significant amount of posters don’t actually want a solution to this.

No matter how simple it may be

We have the solution Fintan, it's going into arms this very minute.

RobitTV · 15-02-2021 03:38PM

Boris Johnson announcement: Prime Minister Boris Johnson has vowed that this lockdown will be the last, as he begins to develop his 'roadmap' for relaxing restrictions by Easter.

Mr Johnson and senior members of his cabinet are set to spend the week looking into the latest coronavirus statistics before making an announcement on its plans.

He said: "The dates that we'll be setting out will be the dates by which we hope we can do something at the earliest."

More than a dozen MPs have also called on Mr Johnson to allow restricted weddings to return from 8 March, followed by restriction-free weddings from 1 May.

TheDoctor · 15-02-2021 03:41PM

Boris going all in on "last lockdown".

Does buy him some time to spread out the reopening over a longer timeframe.

hynesie08 · 15-02-2021 03:45PM

RobitTV wrote: »

Boris Johnson announcement: Prime Minister Boris Johnson has vowed that this lockdown will be the last, as he begins to develop his 'roadmap' for relaxing restrictions by Easter.

Mr Johnson and senior members of his cabinet are set to spend the week looking into the latest coronavirus statistics before making an announcement on its plans.

He said: "The dates that we'll be setting out will be the dates by which we hope we can do something at the earliest."

More than a dozen MPs have also called on Mr Johnson to allow restricted weddings to return from 8 March, followed by restriction-free weddings from 1 May.

I wouldn't exactly be booking a resteraunt and a show with that level of commitment.....

RobitTV · 15-02-2021 03:45PM

A text message read out on Today with Claire Byrne said that 'people should be fined for having fresh haircuts if they cannot prove they cut it themselves'

Yep.

TheDoctor · 15-02-2021 03:46PM

RobitTV wrote: »

A text message read out on Today with Claire Byrne said that 'people should be fined for having fresh haircuts if they cannot prove they cut it themselves'

Yep.

Anyone who watches that show needs to have their head examined. Utter tripe.

Hector Savage · 15-02-2021 03:51PM

More far right nonsensical tripe..

Penfailed · 15-02-2021 03:52PM

RobitTV wrote: »

A text message read out on Today with Claire Byrne said that 'people should be fined for having fresh haircuts if they cannot prove they cut it themselves'

Yep.

Oh dear. That reminds me, I must get my wife to give me a run with the clippers. It's getting a bit unruly up there.

DellyBelly · 15-02-2021 03:58PM

RobitTV wrote: »

A text message read out on Today with Claire Byrne said that 'people should be fined for having fresh haircuts if they cannot prove they cut it themselves'

Yep.

I think that is because there are "private" salons popping up and there are a number of people going to them. It clearly is a breach of the guidelines so it has a bit of merit to it. I'm not sure how the gardai could enforce it all the same...

facehugger99 · 15-02-2021 04:10PM

TheDoctor wrote: »

Anyone who watches that show needs to have their head examined. Utter tripe.

Whenever they bring out a poll suggesting widespread support of lockdowns I'm always reminded of this.

Chris Morris was ahead of the curve in calling out the bolloxology of the media.

15-02-2021 04:12PM

Deleted User wrote: »

There is definitely an element of some believing there are easy answers to complex issues. Be it vitamin D, hydroxychloroquine, forsythia....

Hydroxychloroquine was dead in the water as a treatment because Trump opened his fat mouth about it and people could not abide the idea that there might be a nugget of truth in anything he said. A peer-reviewed study was quietly published back in December in the International Journal of Antimicrobial Agents, showing that a cocktail of three drugs, including low-dose hydroxychloroquine, administered to at-risk individuals early in the course of the disease and continued for five days, produced an 84% reduction in hospitalisation. The study itself is not without issue but it would certainly warrant further investigation.

A correlation between vitamin D and more severe/deadly Covid-19 disease has been observed for months now, and many health experts have been talking about it. 1, 2, 3. This week, a study has shown that people treated with calcifediol (activated vitamin D) upon admission to hospital with Covid-19 are 80% less likely to require ICU treatment and 60% less likely to die.

You feel free to carry on being your bad self with your flippant comments about forsythia, but for my money those sorts of findings are a cause to be happy. Not because it is a "simple answer", but because we find ourselves more informed and more armed, and ultimately more capable of saving the lives of those who are vulnerable to this novel virus.

It is remarkable that those most in favour of lockdowns "to save lives" seem so put-out by any other measure that has promise.

15-02-2021 04:21PM

RobitTV wrote: »

A text message read out on Today with Claire Byrne said that 'people should be fined for having fresh haircuts if they cannot prove they cut it themselves'

Yep.

I'm fascinated by the mentality, but moreso by how exactly the texter thinks that would be done. Are the guards to implement a split-ends check into their checkpoint stops? "Where you off to, is it essential, and have you had an inch off since the last time you drove through?"

PTH2009 · 15-02-2021 04:33PM

So much negativity around

Relaxation of Restrictions, Part VIII *Read OP For Mod Warnings*

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Relaxation of Restrictions, Part VIII Read OP For Mod Warnings