What exactly is happening with AstraZeneca?

Tippbhoy1 · 14-02-2021 10:27PM

robinph wrote: »

Tricky to find numbers as you say, but the UK had vaccinated 6 or 7 million people before they even received any of the Astra Zenica.

Had a bit of a further look.
First AZ was given in the uk on the 4th Jan.
Uk was under 2m doses administered at that point, which would have had to be all Pfizer.
Id say it’s AZ by a long margin

HBC08 · 14-02-2021 10:33PM

Icantthinkof1 wrote: »

Great that you’re given a date for the 2nd vaccine at the first appointment.
How are you feeling- any side effects?
I’m waiting on the call to get mine

Sorry only replying now.
I was given a card with the 2nd jab date,I don't know what happens next,we have a vaccine coordinator allocated to our work place for the first jabs so hopefully she'll still be there to organise the 2nd one.
I was surprised at my reaction to the actual vaccine.Withi a couple if hours I had pretty bad aches,pains and shivers,this lasted all night and didn't get any sleep.I never ever get sick,not even a head cold so all this was pretty unpleasant.My arm was very sore for 3 days aswell.
Delighted to have got it though and really hope they can get it together and ramp it up asap.

HBC08 · 14-02-2021 10:34PM

deeperlearning wrote: »

AFAIK all doctors here have received Pfizer and Moderna.

Hospital staff received the Pfizer vaccine but the Moderna was used for the GP vaccination service.

Doctor mate of mine got AZ the same day as me.

fly_agaric · 14-02-2021 11:09PM

Danzy wrote: »

Messing up the vaccine escape from the worst health, economic and social crisis in Europe since the 40s is more than being naive.

Your main comparator here is the UK and US.
The main reason they are vaccinating so many people cf. the EU at the moment is that they have plenty of supply of vaccine to actually do that.

They have ensured their own sources of vaccine (no one else gets any of the US/UK production for now). So it follows the large EU countries with requisite leverage over some big companies and a large Biopharma manufacturing base or the EU itself, if the members agreed to act collectively, would have needed to be hard(er) nosed nationalists about ensuring their own Covid-19 vaccine supply.

That they were not was perhaps naive with the world we live in.
I don't think the outcome of that would have been pretty though
When your nationalism runs up against mine over some common good in short supply trouble starts.
(Probably in that alternative scenario there would have been questions asked [here] about why the EU did not "do something/anything" to pour oil on the troubled waters).

Danzy wrote: »

The EU is looking at many months of restrictions ahead, we are ahead of most of it.

Much of the EU is at risk of a 4th wave from the new variant.

I don't know how "we're ahead" or what this means?

Whatever "variants" are about, when govt. [in Ireland] open up more activities again, allow people to move about & gather and public behaviour goes back towards normal (what is that - hah?) cases and illnesses and then deaths will inevitably rise again, resulting in restrictions again.
No country that has failed to supress the virus properly is "ahead" really. Just doomed to travel the same loop for however long this lasts.

Danzy wrote: »

It's a spectacular failure and a very costly one.

A bit too soon to say I think and an exaggeration again.
It's more of a miracle to me that there have been vaccines developed so fast and produced at scale (even if the scale is not enough as yet).
All Western countries have failed quite spectacularly in dealing with the pandemic and what seems like almost total reliance on the vaccines to fix the disaster is a bit of a risk imo (but I suppose that is all there is). Let's see where things are in a few months.

brickster69 · 14-02-2021 11:09PM

Tippbhoy1 wrote: »

Had a bit of a further look.
First AZ was given in the uk on the 4th Jan.
Uk was under 2m doses administered at that point, which would have had to be all Pfizer.
Id say it’s AZ by a long margin

I understand the UK had been building up the raw material months before Christmas. The filling plant in Wrexham was only up to half speed for some time, so they had to send some over to one of the EU plants to get finished and sent back for the initial roll out.

Wrexham is up to 150,000 a day now so you think they must of had a hell of a lot stocked up and ready to go in anticipation of approval. If it is 500k a day now i would expect only 20% of that is Pfizer now.

Sounds like another gamble might of paid off.

Tippbhoy1 · 14-02-2021 11:35PM

brickster69 wrote: »

I understand the UK had been building up the raw material months before Christmas. The filling plant in Wrexham was only up to half speed for some time, so they had to send some over to one of the EU plants to get finished and sent back for the initial roll out.

Wrexham is up to 150,000 a day now so you think they must of had a hell of a lot stocked up and ready to go in anticipation of approval. If it is 500k a day now i would expect only 20% of that is Pfizer now.

Sounds like another gamble might of paid off.

The uk government are making vaccines these days?

NeuralNetwork · 14-02-2021 11:59PM

Just for the sake of comparison and perspective on the EU rollout, Japan has only approved the first vaccine for their market today. The Pfizer/BioNTech vaccine was formally signed off on 14/02/2020.

https://www3.nhk.or.jp/nhkworld/en/news/20210214_49/

Moderna's still conducting Japanese trials and AstraZeneca has applied, but I'm not sure how long that will take.

Also, just interesting to note that NHK doesn't even mention BioNTech and claims the vaccine is US-developed.

Hego Damask · 15-02-2021 12:01AM

Why are they carrying out trials on children now ?

They really don't need this vaccine, barely affects them and they are not vectors in transmission of this ...

15-02-2021 12:14AM

Hego Damask wrote: »

Why are they carrying out trials on children now ?

They really don't need this vaccine, barely affects them and they are not vectors in transmission of this ...

Some children fall into the high risk category and may need some form of vaccination.

brickster69 · 15-02-2021 12:23AM

Tippbhoy1 wrote: »

The uk government are making vaccines these days?

Never mentioned the Government. But it is a UK vaccine because it was all funded, developed, manufactured, tested, approved, supplied, distributed and administered there.

Not to mention the small matter that it will be sold at cost to billions around the planet and save millions of lives. Something to be proud of no if you think about it ?

Wolf359f · 15-02-2021 12:32AM

brickster69 wrote: »

Never mentioned the Government. But it is a UK vaccine because it was all funded, developed, manufactured, tested, approved, supplied, distributed and administered there.

Not to mention the small matter that it will be sold at cost to billions around the planet and save millions of lives. Something to be proud of no if you think about it ?

Your post came across as it being a UK vaccine (as in the UK government)
There's only 2 other vaccines who have a country assigned when people reference them, the Russian vaccine and the Chinese vaccine. Other vaccines approved are simply called Moderna or Pfizer, the latter is never called the German Vaccine or the American Vaccine.

Hego Damask · 15-02-2021 12:41AM

Aegir wrote: »

Some children fall into the high risk category and may need some form of vaccination.

Good point actually,
I just worry it will become mandatory

Tippbhoy1 · 15-02-2021 07:14AM

brickster69 wrote: »

Never mentioned the Government. But it is a UK vaccine because it was all funded, developed, manufactured, tested, approved, supplied, distributed and administered there.

Not to mention the small matter that it will be sold at cost to billions around the planet and save millions of lives. Something to be proud of no if you think about it ?

Will you have a look at yourself. It will be sold at cost for the duration of this pandemic, whatever that exactly means no one knows. And by at cost, every bloc is paying a different price. Other nations have contributed, including in manufacturing as you even commented yourself a few posts back, by a publicly traded company, with a French CEO. It is also being manufactured in the EU and India. The Eu gave them 336m alone before a vial was distributed. Approval by uk gov was a complete box tick they were so desperate to get ahead.

Well done to the people who developed it but people trying to weaponise any of these vaccines along national lines including preferential treatment on a per nation basis are a complete embarrassment to themselves. You are
probably patting yourself on the back as well how the uk are going to give away their excess AFTER they’ve had their fill from their 5 times excess orders. I suppose they need something to gee themselves up about after over 100k deaths. I won’t even go into the unproven effectiveness of AZ or the approach to administration.

History will write this one in due course and it won’t be from headlines from the Daily Mail or The Express. Hopefully for everyone’s sake the UKs gamble will pay off because we are all screwed if it doesn’t

mick087 · 15-02-2021 08:44AM

brickster69 wrote: »

I

Sounds like another gamble might of paid off.

Maybe not so much a gamble as maybe their experts was right and our experts was wrong.

mick087 · 15-02-2021 08:56AM

Hego Damask wrote: »

Why are they carrying out trials on children now ?

They really don't need this vaccine, barely affects them and they are not vectors in transmission of this ...

Sounds to me they are preparing to add this to their childhood immunisation schedule sometime into the future if so required.
Are we doing the same? Are our experts on the case?

robinph · 15-02-2021 09:03AM

Hego Damask wrote: »

Why are they carrying out trials on children now ?

They really don't need this vaccine, barely affects them and they are not vectors in transmission of this ...

Children don't stay children forever. We don't know how long the vaccine may cover people for, if it lasts X years before a booster is needed maybe vaccination of kids whilst still in school and easier to jab them will be a good tactic. Some children will be clinically vulnerable. Does no harm to run the trials as see if it is useful. Can't really run a trial on the effectiveness once the virus isn't in the community.

Take your pick of reasons.

Doc07 · 15-02-2021 02:31PM

brickster69 wrote: »

I understand the UK had been building up the raw material months before Christmas. The filling plant in Wrexham was only up to half speed for some time, so they had to send some over to one of the EU plants to get finished and sent back for the initial roll out.

Wrexham is up to 150,000 a day now so you think they must of had a hell of a lot stocked up and ready to go in anticipation of approval. If it is 500k a day now i would expect only 20% of that is Pfizer now.

Sounds like another gamble might of paid off.

In UK, by 31st Jan approx 6.5 mil had received Pfizer and approx 3 mil AZ . AZ might be close to catching up by now in proportion of each used in UK

average_runner · 15-02-2021 02:32PM

Hego Damask wrote: »

Why are they carrying out trials on children now ?

They really don't need this vaccine, barely affects them and they are not vectors in transmission of this ...

Also if enough adults don't take it, then kids will have to get it

JFK2000 · 15-02-2021 07:33PM

NeuralNetwork wrote: »

Just for the sake of comparison and perspective on the EU rollout, Japan has only approved the first vaccine for their market today. The Pfizer/BioNTech vaccine was formally signed off on 14/02/2020.

https://www3.nhk.or.jp/nhkworld/en/news/20210214_49/

Moderna's still conducting Japanese trials and AstraZeneca has applied, but I'm not sure how long that will take.

Also, just interesting to note that NHK doesn't even mention BioNTech and claims the vaccine is US-developed.

Japan regulators are refusing to solely accept trial data conducted by companies outside of Japan. Insisting they do an addition 200 person clinical trial on japanese soil. Delaying their vaccine programs for a statistically small sample doesn't seem great logic. (trying not to mention the still proceeding olympicsin July. Oops!)

lucernarian · 15-02-2021 07:44PM

plodder wrote: »

That seems to be the implication but it sounds completely bizarre. I wonder is there any precedent for that with a vaccine.

I see the CI for both schedules was pretty wide (62.7% - 91.7% for the 12 week gap) and (32.7%, 69.7% for the < 6 week gap). They even overlap. Maybe they need to wait longer for more data?

There is a certain aspect to the AZ vaccine that could be counterproductive. The fact that the vaccine uses the same adenovirus vector for both doses may cause unwanted reactivity to the vector, and it's something the Sputnik vaccine avoids by design (first and second dose have different vectors). There is some additional weight for this hypothesis because of the fact that the developers of Sputnik and Oxford are now collaborating with a view to potential new trials and combinations.

lucernarian · 15-02-2021 07:58PM

JFK2000 wrote: »

Japan regulators are refusing to solely accept trial data conducted by companies outside of Japan. Insisting they do an addition 200 person clinical trial on japanese soil. Delaying their vaccine programs for a statistically small sample doesn't seem great logic. (trying not to mention the still proceeding olympicsin July. Oops!)

There are complicated reasons behind the Japanese approach. There could be vaccine skepticism in a country that has lots of people attaching importance to blood group types for many things, extending to personality types. "Vaccine approved for a population which it hasn't been tested on". The population are of almost homogeneous ethnicity and there have been disproportionate impacts on some ethnicities by the disease itself. They're basically requiring phase 2 trials in the country but I agree, it doesn't achieve much from a scientific perspective.

DaSilva · 15-02-2021 08:02PM

JFK2000 wrote: »

Japan regulators are refusing to solely accept trial data conducted by companies outside of Japan. Insisting they do an addition 200 person clinical trial on japanese soil. Delaying their vaccine programs for a statistically small sample doesn't seem great logic. (trying not to mention the still proceeding olympicsin July. Oops!)

Its not unprecedented, I'm pretty sure the USA does the same thing, thats why Oxford are running a separate trial over there. There is a scientific argument that results from a trial run in South America might not reliably predict results in Japan due to the many differences in average peoples health and environment. It's naive to assume the Japanese are doing this for non scientific reasons

lucernarian · 15-02-2021 08:09PM

DaSilva wrote: »

Its not unprecedented, I'm pretty sure the USA does the same thing, thats why Oxford are running a separate trial over there. There is a scientific argument that results from a trial run in South America might not reliably predict results in Japan due to the many differences in average peoples health and environment. It's naive to assume the Japanese are doing this for non scientific reasons

Yes, there are quirks in epidemiology that aren't easily explained - the prevalence of Type 1 diabetes in Japan is something like 1 in 160,000 while in Finland I think it's 1 in 400? And this difference is as yet unexplained. But the US has a very heterologous population from an ethnicity and behavioural perspective, and various factors make it pretty suited for vaccine trials. The situation in Japan is vastly different, and I believe the precautionary principle is good to apply here. They want the equivalent of a phase 2 trial to demonstrate lack of harm for their population.

JFK2000 · 15-02-2021 09:05PM

lucernarian wrote: »

There are complicated reasons behind the Japanese approach. There could be vaccine skepticism in a country that has lots of people attaching importance to blood group types for many things, extending to personality types. "Vaccine approved for a population which it hasn't been tested on". The population are of almost homogeneous ethnicity and there have been disproportionate impacts on some ethnicities by the disease itself. They're basically requiring phase 2 trials in the country but I agree, it doesn't achieve much from a scientific perspective.

Interesting hadn't considered the culture angle to foreign vaccines... thanks!

In that case its almost lip service to say "we did it and approve it" as randomized, placebo-controlled trial with a mere 200 subjects would be statistically weaker. The phase 3 data i've seen is generally in the 10's of thousands of subjects.

JFK2000 · 15-02-2021 09:10PM

DaSilva wrote: »

Its not unprecedented, I'm pretty sure the USA does the same thing, thats why Oxford are running a separate trial over there. There is a scientific argument that results from a trial run in South America might not reliably predict results in Japan due to the many differences in average peoples health and environment. It's naive to assume the Japanese are doing this for non scientific reasons

Its the trial size of 200 that seems oddly conservative to me. AZ American phase 3 was 30000 subjects. But hey everything is bigger in America.

lucernarian · 15-02-2021 09:14PM

JFK2000 wrote: »

Its the trial size of 200 that seems oddly conservative to me. AZ American phase 3 was 30000 subjects. But hey everything is bigger in America.

They seem comparable to phase 2 sizes. That would basically prove, to at least a limited extent, a safety profile and antibody generation in the native population.

Bass Reeves · 18-02-2021 09:10AM

AstraZeneca contract with the UK is very similar to the EU contract. The contract has the same best effort clause. It looks like management in AZ made a political decision to prioritize supply to the UK.

https://edition.cnn.com/2021/02/17/europe/uk-astrazeneca-vaccine-contract-details-intl/index.html

Another factor I did not know was that the UK was following a single dose policy at the start of there immunization program. It is not as far ahead of the general EU program as people imagine. It will have to start giving the second dose soon and this will slow down its peogram

mick087 · 18-02-2021 09:27AM

Bass Reeves wrote: »

AstraZeneca contract with the UK is very similar to the EU contract. The contract has the same best effort clause. It looks like management in AZ made a political decision to prioritize supply to the UK.

https://edition.cnn.com/2021/02/17/europe/uk-astrazeneca-vaccine-contract-details-intl/index.html

Another factor I did not know was that the UK was following a single dose policy at the start of there immunization program. It is not as far ahead of the general EU program as people imagine. It will have to start giving the second dose soon and this will slow down its peogram

The EU Commission was slow off the mark.
Why was the EU Commission so slow?

Are the EU taking AZ to court?
If not why?

Forget the UK and what the UK are doing they are not in the EU and are doing there own thing.
What is the EU Commission doing for us its citizens?

Lets ask what our leaders are doing for us not what the UK are doing.

Soon there will be plenty of vaccines.

Stark · 18-02-2021 09:43AM

Bass Reeves wrote: »

Another factor I did not know was that the UK was following a single dose policy at the start of there immunization program. It is not as far ahead of the general EU program as people imagine. It will have to start giving the second dose soon and this will slow down its peogram

They've still given out over 25 doses per 100 population as opposed to about 5 doses per 100 here.

embraer170 · 18-02-2021 09:49AM

Bass Reeves wrote: »

AstraZeneca contract with the UK is very similar to the EU contract. The contract has the same best effort clause. It looks like management in AZ made a political decision to prioritize supply to the UK.

https://edition.cnn.com/2021/02/17/europe/uk-astrazeneca-vaccine-contract-details-intl/index.html

Another factor I did not know was that the UK was following a single dose policy at the start of there immunization program. It is not as far ahead of the general EU program as people imagine. It will have to start giving the second dose soon and this will slow down its peogram

A few bombshells in that article. No one can say it is written on the basis of speculation since the contract is or had been on a UK gov website!

What exactly is happening with AstraZeneca?

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