Working From Home Megathread

08-02-2021 07:39PM

Greenlights16 wrote: »

However, HR being HR I imagine someone will throw up a fuss or one of the directors will want everyone back 4 days per week or similar.

I think you're right to be concerned.

In the case of the civil / public service, I predict what will happen is remote working will end up operating in a similar manner to flexible working hours / worksharing / SWYS schemes before it.

In other words, WFH will be a privilege, but not a right. It will not form part of the terms and conditions of employment and will be totally at the discretion of the employer. Each dept will be able to run the scheme as they see fit.

To comply with any proposed new legislation, everyone will have the right to apply and make a business case for WFH and the right to an explanation / review if it is declined, but ultimately it will be for each head of Division to make a recommendation to HR on any of their staffs' applications to WFH, based on how they see it fitting in with their Division's business needs - and these recommendations are usually accepted.

In other words, if you have a boss who is supportive, you'll have a good chance of getting it approved. But if you're unlucky enough to have a clock watching, arse on seats type of micro-manager who times your breaks and knows how many times a day you go to the toilet, you will probably have a fight on your hands. You'll probably have to reapply if you're promoted or change role.

And the employer will always retain the right to remove the privilege at any time.

Bigfatmichael · 08-02-2021 08:19PM

I think the whole safe work from home thing will be introduced after Covid where employers will inspect your work space for fear of a tiny percentage potentially suing their employer. These self entitled scumbags could ruin it for people and enforce a lot of people back to the office if they dont have the space.

Bigfatmichael · 08-02-2021 08:22PM

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

No, I want a safe working environment that isn't going to do further damage to my body.

It's not just about cycling or walking, same would apply to anyone driving to work too.

From my discussions with colleagues, it will be more like 2% than 20%. For most colleagues, they are only too happy to drop their commute.

I'm not looking to be a special case. I'm looking for a safe working environment.

We all did the 'emergency response' stuff 11 months ago. We dropped everything, we changed around our lives and our private homes to suit our employers. That was the response to a global emergency.

Now we're 11 months later, and we're looking at another 8-10 months at best. Worst case, we could be at this for years, if vaccine resistant variants emerge.

I'm looking for a safe working environment, as my employer is required by law to provide.

Are you afraid to bring it up with your employer? Good luck with any promotions if you do. You'd be flagged as a trroublemaker where i work.

AndrewJRenko · 08-02-2021 09:10PM

Bigfatmichael wrote: »

I think the whole safe work from home thing will be introduced after Covid where employers will inspect your work space for fear of a tiny percentage potentially suing their employer. These self entitled scumbags could ruin it for people and enforce a lot of people back to the office if they dont have the space.

Why would employers wait for AFTER Covid to provide a safe working environment? And why is someone who expects a safe working environment a 'self entitled scumbag'?

Sultan of Bling wrote: »

As i asked earlier, have you reported your employer to the HSA?

No, not yet - for two reasons.

First, I really don't want to be 'that guy', the difficult guy, the trouble-maker. I've been that guy before, and it's not a good place to be for me, for my line manager and for others in the organisation.

It would really be a last resort.

Secondly (and I appreciate this is somewhat contradictory), I wouldn't have huge confidence in the HSA taking effective action. I've reported other issues to them in the past, though not for my own employer. They hide behind confidentiality, and won't give any feedback to complainants. My experience suggests they won't take any effective action.

Bigfatmichael · 08-02-2021 09:42PM

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Why would employers wait for AFTER Covid to provide a safe working environment? And why is someone who expects a safe working environment a 'self entitled scumbag'?

No, not yet - for two reasons.

First, I really don't want to be 'that guy', the difficult guy, the trouble-maker. I've been that guy before, and it's not a good place to be for me, for my line manager and for others in the organisation.

It would really be a last resort.

Secondly (and I appreciate this is somewhat contradictory), I wouldn't have huge confidence in the HSA taking effective action. I've reported other issues to them in the past, though not for my own employer. They hide behind confidentiality, and won't give any feedback to complainants. My experience suggests they won't take any effective action.

How do you expect your employer to create a safe working environment for you? Would you be happy if they provided you a desk a chair, the WFH allowance and docking station and screens?

We have all been advised to work from home during the pandemic unless essential.

Sultan of Bling · 08-02-2021 11:12PM

AndrewJRenko wrote:

First, I really don't want to be 'that guy', the difficult guy, the trouble-maker. I've been that guy before, and it's not a good place to be for me, for my line manager and for others in the organisation.

AndrewJRenko wrote:

Secondly (and I appreciate this is somewhat contradictory), I wouldn't have huge confidence in the HSA taking effective action. I've reported other issues to them in the past, though not for my own employer. They hide behind confidentiality, and won't give any feedback to complainants. My experience suggests they won't take any effective action.

Appreciate your honesty.

Unless you communicate your concerns to your employer, probably best to do it in writing, nothing will change for you.

Maybe request an inspection of your work conditions by your heath and safety committee in your workplace and you can outline your concerns.

If they don't do this then at least you have a written record that you can take to the HSA.

08-02-2021 11:55PM

Popped into this thread to see what kind of discussions might have gone on over the last 3 weeks since I last posted here.

I left because it was a non-stop spin around a roundabout of one poster complaining about the WFH situation.

I'm utterly dismayed to still see it being overrun with this particular posters nonsense.

See y'all in another few weeks, hopefully there'll be some change

Dyr · 09-02-2021 12:30AM

Bigfatmichael wrote: »

I think the whole safe work from home thing will be introduced after Covid where employers will inspect your work space for fear of a tiny percentage potentially suing their employer. These self entitled scumbags could ruin it for people and enforce a lot of people back to the office if they dont have the space.

My understanding is HR depts are already thinking that way, they're going to be asking people to show them pictures of their workspace at home.

kippy · 09-02-2021 12:45AM

Docking station, monitor, a decent chair are all thats' needed generally in fairness (and if more is needed for your specific role then work on it)
Can be picked up for very little nowadays if for some reason the employer isn't providing them.
As others have said employers who do go down this avenue with employees will

If you don't have the space at home then WFH isn't really an option for you so you either need to do something about it, or accept it.

AndrewJRenko · 09-02-2021 09:57AM

Bigfatmichael wrote: »

We have all been advised to work from home during the pandemic unless essential.

For Levels 1, 2 and 3, we're advised to WFH "where possible". So here's the question - who decides what is possible?

Bigfatmichael wrote: »

How do you expect your employer to create a safe working environment for you? Would you be happy if they provided you a desk a chair, the WFH allowance and docking station and screens?

Now you're moving in the right direction for sure, but let's take a step back for a minute.

The first thing I want and need is that WFH is an option, not an obligation or an expectation.

My home is my property. I get to decide what goes on there, no-one else. My house, my rules.

There are lots of reasons why WFH doesn't work for people. It might be a matter of an abusive partner or family, or their side AirBNB business or their storage or laundry room. It might be that the noise of regular phone calls and video conferences disturbs others in the house. It might be that the issues discussed on phone calls are of the utmost sensitivity, and shouldn't be overheard by anyone else, even a spouse, and definitely not teenagers or housemates. But whatever it is, it's their property, not the employers. The employee shouldn't have to give a reason or justify a refusal to WFH.

There have been constitutional legal cases over the rights to private property, and now we've allowed a situation develop where the employer has grabbed a big chunk of space, with not so much as a 'pretty please' or 'if that's OK with you'. And yes, I understand we were in an emergency situation. Like everyone else, I was OK with doing what it takes last March to let business continue.

But now we're tipping into next March, and we could well find ourselves tipping into March 2022 with no substantial change - with employers taking large chunks of space without permission or compensation.

Providing a space to work is the employer's problem, not my problem. Employers in retail and manufacturing have had to do what it takes to provide safe working environments. Employers in office staff have gotten away with tipping their problem and their costs over onto the employees.

So my first expectation is that my employer provides a safe place to work, that's not in my house. I really don't care what they have to do to provide this. They might have to put up loads of perspex screens, as retailers have done. They might have to convert open plan spaces to individual offices. They might have to put in traffic light systems for the loos or the coffee dock. They might have to introduce regular testing regimes. Hell, they might have to rent me a nice self-contained 1-bed apartment in the IFSC with broadband, desk, toilet and kitchen if that's what it takes.

And my second expectation is that, if they do want me to use my own property as my office, they can damn well pay for the space, as they pay for any other business expense. If WFH becomes the norm, employers will be making major savings on office rents and fitout. It looks like there's a bit of Stockholm Syndrome going on, where most employees are so relieved to have gotten away from their awful commutes that they wouldn't possibly think of upsetting their employer by looking for rent.

That would be a huge missed opportunity. If employers are going to make substantial savings, they should be shared. There is a sweet spot somewhere below the cost of renting, fitting out, heating and managing an office that will allow employers to still made substantial savings and employees to be compensated for the loss of space in their property. Employers should be paying rent to employees for the office space provided.

But it is their responsibility to provide an office with a desk, not mine.

AndrewJRenko · 09-02-2021 09:59AM

Bambi wrote: »

My understanding is HR depts are already thinking that way, they're going to be asking people to show them pictures of their workspace at home.

The big question arises when HR see that the home workspace isn't safe. What happens then?

meeeeh · 09-02-2021 10:35AM

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

The big question arises when HR see that the home workspace isn't safe. What happens then?

Well working from home proved that people don't need to be on site. You move services to countries where safety is less of an importance. There used to be time when all the manufacturing was done in Europe.

I actually think something like office chair and possibly desk will be provided in future but that will be only when WHF will be discretionary and not mandated by the state. Now the rule is if your work (not your home) enables work from home you should do that. How much you want to be back in the office is completely irrelevant.

Backstreet Moyes · 09-02-2021 10:56AM

I wonder even when we go back if the 2 metre distance will need to be enforced

In our place you have all rows of three desks where unless the middle desk was empty you could not enforce 2 metres

With that in mind that would mean a third of the workforce couldn't be in the office

Personally for me I am finding work from home great, it gives me more time with my kid and small things like using my lunch break to do little things like clean around the house and prepare dinner etc

In saying that I have some great friends in work who I would devastated if we moved full time work from home as I would love to catch up one or two days a week

But overall I find I am much more productive at home so I hope we have the option to work from home a few days a week

Mrs OBumble · 09-02-2021 11:40AM

Bigfatmichael wrote: »

I think the whole safe work from home thing will be introduced after Covid where employers will inspect your work space for fear of a tiny percentage potentially suing their employer. These self entitled scumbags could ruin it for people and enforce a lot of people back to the office if they dont have the space.

So I'm a srlf-entitled scum vag because I live in an apartment which us too small to fit a property desk and chair.

Whereas the lad who lives in a McMansion and drives a Knocknacarra-tractor isn't.

Nice.

Bigfatmichael · 09-02-2021 11:43AM

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

For Levels 1, 2 and 3, we're advised to WFH "where possible". So here's the question - who decides what is possible?

Now you're moving in the right direction for sure, but let's take a step back for a minute.

The first thing I want and need is that WFH is an option, not an obligation or an expectation.

My home is my property. I get to decide what goes on there, no-one else. My house, my rules.

There are lots of reasons why WFH doesn't work for people. It might be a matter of an abusive partner or family, or their side AirBNB business or their storage or laundry room. It might be that the noise of regular phone calls and video conferences disturbs others in the house. It might be that the issues discussed on phone calls are of the utmost sensitivity, and shouldn't be overheard by anyone else, even a spouse, and definitely not teenagers or housemates. But whatever it is, it's their property, not the employers. The employee shouldn't have to give a reason or justify a refusal to WFH.

There have been constitutional legal cases over the rights to private property, and now we've allowed a situation develop where the employer has grabbed a big chunk of space, with not so much as a 'pretty please' or 'if that's OK with you'. And yes, I understand we were in an emergency situation. Like everyone else, I was OK with doing what it takes last March to let business continue.

But now we're tipping into next March, and we could well find ourselves tipping into March 2022 with no substantial change - with employers taking large chunks of space without permission or compensation.

Providing a space to work is the employer's problem, not my problem. Employers in retail and manufacturing have had to do what it takes to provide safe working environments. Employers in office staff have gotten away with tipping their problem and their costs over onto the employees.

So my first expectation is that my employer provides a safe place to work, that's not in my house. I really don't care what they have to do to provide this. They might have to put up loads of perspex screens, as retailers have done. They might have to convert open plan spaces to individual offices. They might have to put in traffic light systems for the loos or the coffee dock. They might have to introduce regular testing regimes. Hell, they might have to rent me a nice self-contained 1-bed apartment in the IFSC with broadband, desk, toilet and kitchen if that's what it takes.

And my second expectation is that, if they do want me to use my own property as my office, they can damn well pay for the space, as they pay for any other business expense. If WFH becomes the norm, employers will be making major savings on office rents and fitout. It looks like there's a bit of Stockholm Syndrome going on, where most employees are so relieved to have gotten away from their awful commutes that they wouldn't possibly think of upsetting their employer by looking for rent.

That would be a huge missed opportunity. If employers are going to make substantial savings, they should be shared. There is a sweet spot somewhere below the cost of renting, fitting out, heating and managing an office that will allow employers to still made substantial savings and employees to be compensated for the loss of space in their property. Employers should be paying rent to employees for the office space provided.

But it is their responsibility to provide an office with a desk, not mine.

So your angry cause the government advised non essential people to work from home during a pandemic where people are dying and sick in hospital You really sound like a nice person.

I can understand your frustration if this was a permanent ask but everyone has do their bit.

Just grow up and stop throwing your rattle out of the pram.

Bigfatmichael · 09-02-2021 11:44AM

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

So I'm a srlf-entitled scum vag because I live in an apartment which us too small to fit a property desk and chair.

Whereas the lad who lives in a McMansion and drives a Knocknacarra-tractor isn't.

Nice.

Just get on with it and stop moaning during a pandemic.

You'll be back in the office when it's over.

Everyone has do their bit, at least your not Pup like a lot of people.

DessieJames · 09-02-2021 11:46AM

Bigfatmichael wrote: »

Just get on with it and stop moaning during a pandemic.

You'll be back in the office when it's over.

what a crass thing to say, you think it's easy working in a tiny confined space 8/9 hours a day 5 days a week

Bigfatmichael · 09-02-2021 12:01PM

DessieJames wrote: »

what a crass thing to say, you think it's easy working in a tiny confined space 8/9 hours a day 5 days a week

No but give me a good alternative?

meeeeh · 09-02-2021 12:02PM

DessieJames wrote: »

what a crass thing to say, you think it's easy working in a tiny confined space 8/9 hours a day 5 days a week

No. However when this ends regional hubs could be used by those who wish to work closer to home but don't have space at home. That's not possible at the moment. At the moment the choice is between wfh and no work. I don't doubt there are people who have it hard working from home but bear in mind there are people who can't work at all. To allow travel to the offices and increase transmission will keep those people even longer out of work.

It will be very interesting in what way this will develop after Covid and how it will affect cities.

DessieJames · 09-02-2021 12:09PM

Bigfatmichael wrote: »

No but give me a good alternative?

if someone is finding it very difficult to wfh they should be allowed to go into their workplace, other than that you'll have situations where people people going to their doctor and signing off work due to stress/depression related issues, working in a tiny cramped environment day in day out , week in, week out is not easy or good for anyone and not everyone can cope with this.

Bigfatmichael · 09-02-2021 12:43PM

DessieJames wrote: »

if someone is finding it very difficult to wfh they should be allowed to go into their workplace, other than that you'll have situations where people people going to their doctor and signing off work due to stress/depression related issues, working in a tiny cramped environment day in day out , week in, week out is not easy or good for anyone and not everyone can cope with this.

I can understand people getting annoyed with working from home and can sympathize but the 5KM rule, retail closed etc. is their for a reason and only essential workers can go to the office.

It sucks but it's for the greater good to keep the numbers down till everyone is vacinated. I'm sure nurses and doctors would disagree with allowing people back to an office.

If work places let people back I'm sure a lot of people would love to go in for a few days a week and more people travelling outside their 5km range and more people will get infected.

It does suck working from home but can't make exceptions for individuals and could drive the numbers.

People need to stop thinking about themselves and just get on with it for the greater good.

Dyr · 09-02-2021 12:55PM

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

So my first expectation is that my employer provides a safe place to work, that's not in my house. I really don't care what they have to do to provide this.

Ah right, no safety issue then, you just dont want to work from home.

DessieJames · 09-02-2021 12:59PM

Bigfatmichael wrote: »

I can understand people getting annoyed with working from home and can sympathize but the 5KM rule, retail closed etc. is their for a reason and only essential workers can go to the office.

It sucks but it's for the greater good to keep the numbers down till everyone is vacinated. I'm sure nurses and doctors would disagree with allowing people back to an office.

If work places let people back I'm sure a lot of people would love to go in for a few days a week and more people travelling outside their 5km range and more people will get infected.

It does suck working from home but can't make exceptions for individuals and could drive the numbers.

People need to stop thinking about themselves and just get on with it for the greater good.

if theres a word i hate even more than staycation its the "for the greater good" something NPHET use regulary but its fine for them on their huge salaries and nice houses, they dont have to get by on a PUP payment same as politicans and expect people to be like robots and put up and shut up, they dont have to work in a small confined place either day in, day out, week in week out going mad!

The "greater good" narrative is lost on most people at this stage.

Antares35 · 09-02-2021 01:43PM

Bigfatmichael wrote: »

So your angry cause the government advised non essential people to work from home during a pandemic where people are dying and sick in hospital You really sound like a nice person.

I can understand your frustration if this was a permanent ask but everyone has do their bit.

Just grow up and stop throwing your rattle out of the pram.

My sentiments too. Also, why should a company pay Andrew rent just because they are saving money? A company does not actually have an obligation to pay it's employees more simply because it's saving money. If he had said "because you're renting a room in my home" that would be logical but the rationale was "you are saving money, so gimme". Just smacks of entitlement. Anyway all the money they will spend installing traffics light systems for the loo will surely negate the savings in rent

Remuneration is linked with performance, skill, responsibilities etc. Well, it is for most of us!

jrosen · 09-02-2021 01:59PM

I wonder how all this will settle down?

My husband works from home and right now he is taking up our spare bedroom. But most of his colleagues are working from the kitchen table/bedroom because they dont have a home office or a spare bedroom. There is no denying there are positives to working from home but there are also downsides and space being one of them. I would think most companies will keep a small % of their office spaces and offer people a more flexible arrangement. There is no point paying massive rents for premises if your staff want to stay home. Its a win win really. Once there is some office space that people who need too and who want to work from the office can.

Antares35 · 09-02-2021 02:18PM

jrosen wrote: »

I wonder how all this will settle down?

My husband works from home and right now he is taking up our spare bedroom. But most of his colleagues are working from the kitchen table/bedroom because they dont have a home office or a spare bedroom. There is no denying there are positives to working from home but there are also downsides and space being one of them. I would think most companies will keep a small % of their office spaces and offer people a more flexible arrangement. There is no point paying massive rents for premises if your staff want to stay home. Its a win win really. Once there is some office space that people who need too and who want to work from the office can.

Our office had a desk booking system between lockdowns so if you wanted to go in for 1,2 days you could. I think many people favour the hybrid model going forward, and hopefully this will be reflected in new working norms.

09-02-2021 03:09PM

jrosen wrote: »

I wonder how all this will settle down?

My husband works from home and right now he is taking up our spare bedroom. But most of his colleagues are working from the kitchen table/bedroom because they dont have a home office or a spare bedroom. There is no denying there are positives to working from home but there are also downsides and space being one of them. I would think most companies will keep a small % of their office spaces and offer people a more flexible arrangement. There is no point paying massive rents for premises if your staff want to stay home. Its a win win really. Once there is some office space that people who need too and who want to work from the office can.

Absolutely, however the point one or two are making is that because they don't like it nobody should be allowed to do it.

WFH doesn't suit everyone for various reasons
- lack of space
- lack of privacy
- need for social interaction to be able to do the job

It does suit many others because they
- have space
- have privacy
- are able to work without someone working over their shoulder

For that second group there are certain considerations e.g. safety and suitability of the home workspace, but thats not an insurmountable obstacle.

Personally I don't see what all the drama is about, it either suits you or it doesn't, if it doesn't, once the pandemic is over you can go back to the office, no big deal, in the mean time, be thankful you have a job you can actually do from home and that you are not one of the million or so that are on PUP

AndrewJRenko · 09-02-2021 08:01PM

Bambi wrote: »

Ah right, no safety issue then, you just dont want to work from home.

Try reading the full post.

But even if it WAS just a want, do I not get to decide what goes on in my house?

AndrewJRenko · 09-02-2021 08:03PM

Antares35 wrote: »

My sentiments too. Also, why should a company pay Andrew rent just because they are saving money? A company does not actually have an obligation to pay it's employees more simply because it's saving money. If he had said "because you're renting a room in my home" that would be logical but the rationale was "you are saving money, so gimme". Just smacks of entitlement. Anyway all the money they will spend installing traffics light systems for the loo will surely negate the savings in rent Remuneration is linked with performance, skill, responsibilities etc. Well, it is for most of us!

Did you miss this bit?

" my second expectation is that, if they do want me to use my own property as my office, they can damn well pay for the space, as they pay for any other business expense."

kippy · 09-02-2021 08:10PM

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Did you miss this bit?

" my second expectation is that, if they do want me to use my own property as my office, they can damn well pay for the space, as they pay for any other business expense."

I'd suggest that if that is your opening gambit/attitude you won't be working from home in the longer term.
I think employers can assist their employees getting various pieces of hardware if required but an ongoing payment for "space rental" is just a ridiculous concept.
You can argue that point if you want but you've got to be ready for the logical conclusions that come out of it.

Working From Home Megathread

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