Random EV thoughts.....

AndyBoBandy · 01-02-2021 04:28PM

With more and more PHEV's becoming available, now would be a really good time to add the motor tax to the fuel used, and not the duration & car the tax should be valid with!!!

Someone in a 5 year old 320d might drive 60,000km in 1 year, and pay what? €190 in motor tax?
meanwhile me in my 2006 320d, who's driven it around 400km in the last 10 months, pays €710 motor tax for the same year!!

Find a fair equation to transfer it from the car to the fuel consumed so as to ensure no loss of revenue, and then let it go from there...

Then people can PHEV it up all they like!!

Busman Paddy Lasty · 01-02-2021 04:44PM

Fuel is already taxed heavily. They want VRT and motor tax on top. Revenue/Gov couldn't give a fiddlers about CO2 or local air quality.

kanuseeme · 01-02-2021 06:38PM

innrain wrote: »

I just had a glance at the sales figures for January. Quite disappointing overall but not surprising. I would think lots of people put of the idea of buying a new car now.
980 BEVs 3.89% market share compared with 891 units or 2.91% in 2020
Plugin hybrids have nearly doubled. Overall plug-in cars have 8.27% market share.
The best sold plug-in hybrid is KIA Xceed followed by its sister Niro but at the class type Jeep/SUV Prestige (H2) is the first.
Should this be worrying? Are this large SUVs going to be plugged in or is just a tax scheme?

Hard know what to do if you have a phev, charge it and your a miser saving 1 euro at the expensive of busy BEV drivers, don't charge it and its a scam.

Surprised myself to see BEVS (980) relegated to 5th position and diesel electric registrations (511) over half that of BEVs, 500 of the 511 are Kia sportage.

liamog · 01-02-2021 06:48PM

kanuseeme wrote: »

Hard know what to do if you have a phev, charge it and your a miser saving 1 euro at the expensive of busy BEV drivers, don't charge it and its a scam.

Surprised myself to see BEVS (980) relegated to 5th position and diesel electric registrations (511) over half that of BEVs, 500 of the 511 are Kia sportage.

Show's how hybridisation is basically becoming a default for any non plug in car. I've been saying for a while that people should ignore hybrid's in decision making. It's not to say they shouldn't buy one, merely that whether a given car is a hybrid over a pure ICE is effectively a pointless distinction.

As to PHEV's, plug them all the time so long as it's not on a rapid. I'm a charge fast or go home kind of guy

DermoMIO · 02-02-2021 01:46PM

Has there been any whispers on vat staying at 21% in the coming weeks ? I’m about to bite the bullet on a ID3 and one dealer is saying to me that vat increase will come into play if they have to order in one to my likings unfortunately.

DrPhilG · 02-02-2021 05:22PM

DermoMIO wrote: »

Has there been any whispers on vat staying at 21% in the coming weeks ? I’m about to bite the bullet on a ID3 and one dealer is saying to me that vat increase will come into play if they have to order in one to my likings unfortunately.

I have no clue re VAT but that sounds like typical dealer pressure. Maybe not, but I'm a cynical bugger.

MJohnston · 02-02-2021 06:51PM

DrPhilG wrote: »

I have no clue re VAT but that sounds like typical dealer pressure. Maybe not, but I'm a cynical bugger.

Maybe so but the dealer is factually correct. The government haven’t said anything about extending the VAT reduction, and it will automatically revert if they don’t

DermoMIO · 02-02-2021 07:32PM

DrPhilG wrote: »

I have no clue re VAT but that sounds like typical dealer pressure. Maybe not, but I'm a cynical bugger.

Oh I agree but said I’d see if anyone around here might’ve heard something.

the_amazing_raisin · 02-02-2021 09:46PM

Looks like hydrogen might have gotten a lifeline

https://www.electrive.com/2021/02/02/fraunhofer-develops-hydrogen-storage-paste/

Very early days yet, might not see this in production for 10 years and it's cost effectiveness is unknown at this point

Has all the ingredients to be very useful though, could be the boost that hydrogen needs to become viable

smellyoldboot · 02-02-2021 09:57PM

cruisey1987 wrote: »

Looks like hydrogen might have gotten a lifeline

https://www.electrive.com/2021/02/02/fraunhofer-develops-hydrogen-storage-paste/

Very early days yet, might not see this in production for 10 years and it's cost effectiveness is unknown at this point

Has all the ingredients to be very useful though, could be the boost that hydrogen needs to become viable

Hydrogen is pretty much the only real viable clean solution to ICE. The sooner the better because EVs will run out of growth space real soon when most people consider them briefly and realise they have nowhere to charge the things. PHEV is probably a more realistic , slightly cleaner stop gap technology until then.

02-02-2021 10:07PM

https://electrek.co/2021/02/02/tesla-model-s-x-get-rid-lead-acid-12v-battery-moves-li-ion/

This is something that I'm happy about.

Porsche were selling non-lead acid batteries for their track cars at Porsche prices.
It is nice to see a Manufacturer finally getting rid of the lead acid battery.

Others will have to follow. It saves weight and space.

liamog · 03-02-2021 12:24AM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

https://electrek.co/2021/02/02/tesla-model-s-x-get-rid-lead-acid-12v-battery-moves-li-ion/

This is something that I'm happy about.

Porsche were selling non-lead acid batteries for their track cars at Porsche prices.
It is nice to see a Manufacturer finally getting rid of the lead acid battery.

Others will have to follow. It saves weight and space.

Nice to see Tesla copying Hyundai

zg3409 · 03-02-2021 10:53AM

DrPhilG wrote: »

I have no clue re VAT but that sounds like typical dealer pressure. Maybe not, but I'm a cynical bugger.

The standard rate of VAT has reduced from 23% to 21%, effective from 1 September 2020 to 28 February 2021. This was announced on 23 July 2020

ELM327 · 03-02-2021 10:57AM

cruisey1987 wrote: »

Looks like hydrogen might have gotten a lifeline

https://www.electrive.com/2021/02/02/fraunhofer-develops-hydrogen-storage-paste/

Very early days yet, might not see this in production for 10 years and it's cost effectiveness is unknown at this point

Has all the ingredients to be very useful though, could be the boost that hydrogen needs to become viable

Those fool cells will stay where they are. "The next big thing".
Has been since the 70's

It doesnt make sense.

03-02-2021 04:17PM

smellyoldboot wrote: »

EVs will run out of growth space real soon when most people consider them briefly and realise they have nowhere to charge the things.

What about at home?

smellyoldboot · 03-02-2021 05:25PM

BrownFinger wrote: »

What about at home?

What about apartment/terraced home dwellers? The suburban family home with driveway is far from the norm in most markets.

slave1 · 03-02-2021 05:41PM

smellyoldboot wrote: »

What about apartment/terraced home dwellers? The suburban family home with driveway is far from the norm in most markets.

You're 100% correct here and this forum has been saying for years that EV ownership is not for this category of owner (with present public infrastructure penetration).

timsey tiger · 03-02-2021 05:41PM

smellyoldboot wrote: »

Hydrogen is pretty much the only real viable clean solution to ICE. The sooner the better because EVs will run out of growth space real soon when most people consider them briefly and realise they have nowhere to charge the things. PHEV is probably a more realistic , slightly cleaner stop gap technology until then.

I've charged mine twice at a public charger since I got it, just to see how it works and it is free for a year. Otherwise I plug it in at home and the lockdown hasn't changed my normal long travel days at all (essential).

The sooner that most people (with parking) realise that they will just plug in at night and never think about again, the sooner that we won't hear about this stuff again.

Even toyota are going all solid state battery, if they sort that they will forget hydrogen pretty quickly.

KCross · 03-02-2021 06:09PM

smellyoldboot wrote: »

Hydrogen is pretty much the only real viable clean solution to ICE. The sooner the better because EVs will run out of growth space real soon when most people consider them briefly and realise they have nowhere to charge the things. PHEV is probably a more realistic , slightly cleaner stop gap technology until then.

viable and clean are not really two words you can put next to hydrogen. Its not clean unless you can "make" it from excess renewable energy and in that scenario its a huge waste of energy to sink it into making hydrogen. i.e. the energy required to make hydrogen would be better spent just putting into a battery directly.

Its also not viable due to its inability to scale like petrol/diesel and BEV charging infrastructure can. Hydrogen stations are just too costly. Electricity is already "everywhere".

You could look into your crystal ball and just say these are technological issues that will be solved and it will all work out but in the meantime BEV tech is already on the ground and making significant inroads to the market with the biggest OEM's spending 10s of billions on it. BEV has now moved so far forward that hydrogen has missed the boat because, for cars, its decades away from making a breakthrough and scaling up. Most car OEM's have abandoned their hydrogen programs at this stage.

Hydrogen will likely have a place for commercial operations where it can be stored safely and used at scale (trucks, boats etc).

smellyoldboot wrote: »

What about apartment/terraced home dwellers? The suburban family home with driveway is far from the norm in most markets.

Thats a range issue. As BEV's get longer range (we've already quadrupled range in the last 10yrs) those people will charge up once a week while they go to the shops etc.

In the meantime it is a blocker for alot of those people to buy a BEV. No arguments there, BEV's are not yet for everyone.

Silent Running · 03-02-2021 06:24PM

Apartment dwellers' charging could mostly be solved if there was an understanding management company involved, allowing charging posts to be installed at parking spots. If management companies aren't willing to move forward, legislation could be enacted to 'encourage' them.

On street parking could mostly be solved by lamp post chargers or roadside compact chargers.

Where there is political will there is a way. It's not impossible!

I agree that BEVs aren't for everyone, but not because of charging constraints.

03-02-2021 11:41PM

smellyoldboot wrote: »

What about apartment/terraced home dwellers? The suburban family home with driveway is far from the norm in most markets.

Tuff titties

smellyoldboot · 03-02-2021 11:51PM

BrownFinger wrote: »

Tuff titties

It makes the vehicles a rather esoteric pursuit though, it's weird there seems to be such a push towards them from government and even manufacturers, when for large segments of the potential market, the vehicles are pretty much useless.

slave1 · 04-02-2021 12:13AM

smellyoldboot wrote: »

It makes the vehicles a rather esoteric pursuit though, it's weird there seems to be such a push towards them from government and even manufacturers, when for large segments of the potential market, the vehicles are pretty much useless.

Because (bluntly) the ICE alternatives are literally killing us

smellyoldboot · 04-02-2021 12:34AM

slave1 wrote: »

Because (bluntly) the ICE alternatives are literally killing us

OK, but EVs don't actually solve the problem, not properly. We can have all the best intentions in the world but demand for transport from what I can see will always outstrip what EVs can deliver.

They're mostly beloved by 1st world, relatively wealthy countries in any case and I hate to be blunt but, even if we all magically switched to EVs in the morning, it fixes nothing, we're not the problem, in fact we create a bigger problem environmentallly: the things are expensive as they are, to push the prices down there is no way they can be manufactured in Europe, so we push production to China, India etc to fulfill our increased consumption, but those guys aren't buying EVs and those production facilities are run on...dirty dirty coal.

McGiver · 04-02-2021 12:38AM

Silent Running wrote:

Apartment dwellers' charging could mostly be solved if there was an understanding management company involved, allowing charging posts to be installed at parking spots. If management companies aren't willing to move forward, legislation could be enacted to 'encourage' them.

This must be legislation driven, as in the Netherlands, Norway, Sweden and even Germany. Irish business, such as the management companies are stiff, won't move. Legislation is the only way. Just follow Norway.

1. Mandate all new builds to make provisions for communal charging in the design / planning.
2. Right to plug - make the ability to request installation of a charging post a property owner's and tenant's right.
3. Create a process for individual, group of individuals or cooperative to request installation of a community charging point from the local authority.
4. Mandate car parks to install chargers.
5. Mandate rest places and petrol stations to install chargers.
6. Mandate malls to install chargers.
7. Mandate gov buildings to install chargers.
8. Create rules and regulations for the charging point market operation and then liberalise the market.
9. Create tax incentives for business to install chargers.

Did I forget something?

McGiver · 04-02-2021 01:04AM

smellyoldboot wrote:

They're mostly beloved by 1st world, relatively wealthy countries in any case and I hate to be blunt but, even if we all magically switched to EVs in the morning, it fixes nothing, we're not the problem, in fact we create a bigger problem environmentallly: the things are expensive as they are, to push the prices down there is no way they can be manufactured in Europe, so we push production to China, India etc to fulfill our increased consumption, but those guys aren't buying EVs and those production facilities are run on...dirty dirty coal.

Wrong.

China has had the most EVs until 2021 only to be surpassed by the EU recently (1.3 ve 1.2M EVs).
China remains the top EV market and a very dynamic one. China has more EV models than the EU and also more pure EV car makers, some of which started exports to the EU or are close to it (Xpeng, Nio).
China is undergoing a huge renewable energy revolution (40% installed capacity as of now).

Wrong on the production too.

VW, BMW and others are working on battery production supply lines in Europe. The cars themselves are also produced in Europe. Tesla and also Korean as well as Chinese battery companies are building battery factories in the EU.
Also, there is a European Battery Alliance which was setup exactly for the reason of ensuring production in the EU and reducing dependence on Asian imports.

smellyoldboot · 04-02-2021 01:30AM

McGiver wrote: »

Wrong.

China has had the most EVs until 2021 only to be surpassed by the EU recently (1.3 ve 1.2M EVs).
China remains the top EV market and a very dynamic one. China has more EV models than the EU and also more pure EV car makers, some of which started exports to the EU or are close to it (Xpeng, Nio).
China is undergoing a huge renewable energy revolution (40% installed capacity as of now).

Wrong on the production too.

VW, BMW and others are working on battery production supply lines in Europe. The cars themselves are also produced in Europe. Tesla and also Korean as well as Chinese battery companies are building battery factories in the EU.
Also, there is a European Battery Alliance which was setup exactly for the reason of ensuring production in the EU and reducing dependence on Asian imports.

So, given there are plans to outlaw ICE vehicles in the medium future in a few European countries (no doubt our hapless gob****es will jump on board without thinking it through properly).

Where will all these vehicles charge? Public facilities that take hours or even assuming every one is fast charging (lol) 30 minutes + to refuel would represent massive step backwards in terms of convenience, let's be honest a major selling point for private cars.

Somebody mentioned lamppost charging, to give an example, I live on a relatively long urban street comprised almost exclusively of terraced housing. Lampposts are at best 75-100m apart, often already doubling up as electricity/telecoms transmission poles. You would be lucky to get parked at/near one once a week and that wouldn't be consistent or reliable.

The cost is significantly, often to the point of being prohibitively more expensive than the ICE equivalent. And that is with the vehicles currently being subsidised, 2nd hand vehicles will likely suffer from battery degradation and poor range and/or require expensive battery replacement. This will make motoring too expensive for anyone not comfortably middle class. A massively regressive step also.

Range is a massive problem, sure top end Teslas and the latest prestige marks can likely match a full tank of diesel. But its akin to an Opel Corsa salesman telling you a McClaren can do 200+ mph. It will take many generations before the models intended for mass market get near those ranges.

Too many questions and it's frankly very weird that what's being put forward as the only alternative to the current offering is something with deep and obvious flaws that there just doesn't seem to be answers to.

DrPhilG · 04-02-2021 01:43AM

smellyoldboot wrote: »

2nd hand vehicles will likely suffer from battery degradation and poor range and/or require expensive battery replacement.

Ah dear... You were actually doing OK til that point.

smellyoldboot · 04-02-2021 01:55AM

DrPhilG wrote: »

Ah dear... You were actually doing OK til that point.

Battery life reduced to 80km so in a 10 yo vehicle? That the asking price is on a par with perfectly use able and non limited ICE vehicles. Whats normal about that? There's threads on this forum about people considering buying 2nd hand EVs and encountering that exact issue.

Silent Running · 04-02-2021 09:53AM

DrPhilG wrote: »

Ah dear... You were actually doing OK til that point.

There are none so blind...

Some people just will not see that there are answers. All sorts of excuses will be dragged up, like 'I can't park at a lamp post' Well you would be able to if it had a charger and was an EV only parking spot.

'Batteries degrade and need to be replaced.' Pointing to the first Leaf as an example. Technology has moved on. The blind need time to catch up to this. Not everyone needs 500kms of range every day. I certainly don't. A lot of people would be more than happy with 80kms a day. Look at your own mileage. If you do 500kms a day, only the long range EVs would suit. But do you?

Only high end Tesla... Yawn... My Kia can keep up with Teslas in range.

What's next? 'Electric cars can't be driven in the rain' You sound like a cretin certain Kerry politician.

OK a challenge to the naysayers: Burning fossil fuels has to go, it's killing us. What do you propose as an alternative transport solution?

Random EV thoughts.....

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