Random EV thoughts.....

liamog

Kramer wrote: »

Apparently, VW are ahead of the posse with regard to solid state......

QuantumScape are an interesting one to watch, they are around ten years old and have a non exclusive arrangement with VW. Their recent results covered lithium meal a single layer pouch cell packaged to dimensions that would fit automotive uses, they showed a retained capacity of 80% after 800 cycles at 30°C with a charge rate of 1C. The big challenge for them now will be to figure out how to build the cells at a commercial scale.

the_amazing_raisin

liamog wrote: »

QuantumScape are an interesting one to watch, they are around ten years old and have a non exclusive arrangement with VW. Their recent results covered lithium meal a single layer pouch cell packaged to dimensions that would fit automotive uses, they showed a retained capacity of 80% after 800 cycles at 30°C with a charge rate of 1C. The big challenge for them now will be to figure out how to build the cells at a commercial scale.

Hopefully it works out, until I see a car being sold with solid state batteries I'm not gonna have much faith in timelines

If I remember correctly VW own a chunk of Northvolt, they might be gearing up to bring battery manufacturing in house if the Quantum Scape venture pans out

The laws of mass production being what they are, I imagine those batteries will be quite expensive at first. So they'll probably only appear in the top end vehicles, Porsches and Audi's and will eventually filter down to the low end cars

Jizique

liamog wrote: »

QuantumScape are an interesting one to watch, they are around ten years old and have a non exclusive arrangement with VW. Their recent results covered lithium meal a single layer pouch cell packaged to dimensions that would fit automotive uses, they showed a retained capacity of 80% after 800 cycles at 30°C with a charge rate of 1C. The big challenge for them now will be to figure out how to build the cells at a commercial scale.

GAC saying they have developed a battery using graphene that charges to 80% in 8 mins and offers 1,000km - working on it since 2014.
More details later this month and launch Q4 2021

ELM327

Jizique wrote: »

GAC saying they have developed a battery using graphene that charges to 80% in 8 mins and offers 1,000km - working on it since 2014.
More details later this month and launch Q4 2021

From where?
What plug gives even 25% of the power that needs?
No point building an EV that charges at 600kW or something, as these chargers do not exist.


Tesla could build a v4 supercharger setup or something but other OEMs havent a hope

IrishHomer

Sky News have a story claiming a new battery invented to charge in five minutes

http://news.sky.com/story/new-electric-car-battery-can-be-fully-charged-in-five-minutes-12192253

AndyBoBandy

IrishHomer wrote: »

http://news.sky.com/story/new-electric-car-battery-can-be-fully-charged-in-five-minutes-12192253

The breakthrough could address a significant concern for electric car drivers - the fear of running out of power during a journey, marooning the vehicle for a couple of hours while it charges.

Thats roughly about the same as the fear I had when driving my diesel car, and at about the same levels...

KCross

As like all "battery breakthroughs"... dont believe it until you see it in a real production car.

ELM327

IrishHomer wrote: »

Sky News have a story claiming a new battery invented to charge in five minutes

http://news.sky.com/story/new-electric-car-battery-can-be-fully-charged-in-five-minutes-12192253

Again, from where?

the_amazing_raisin

IrishHomer wrote: »

Sky News have a story claiming a new battery invented to charge in five minutes

http://news.sky.com/story/new-electric-car-battery-can-be-fully-charged-in-five-minutes-12192253

Ha, they were moaning about the UK charging network


They should come to Ireland and take a look at our "network" :rolleyes:

the_amazing_raisin

KCross wrote: »

As like all "battery breakthroughs"... dont believe it until you see it in a real production car.

True, but it's getting closer. We're going from lab prototypes that barely function to something that can be manufactured in a production line

MJohnston

ELM327 wrote: »

Again, from where?

The Guardian article gives better, though still not enough, detail:

The batteries can be fully charged in five minutes but this would require much higher-powered chargers than used today. Using available charging infrastructure, StoreDot is aiming to deliver 100 miles of charge to a car battery in five minutes in 2025.

ELM327

100 miles / 160km in 5 minutes in 2025?
You can nearly do that today in a model 3 at a V3 supercharger.

JohnC.

ELM327 wrote: »

From where?
What plug gives even 25% of the power that needs?
No point building an EV that charges at 600kW or something, as these chargers do not exist.


Tesla could build a v4 supercharger setup or something but other OEMs havent a hope

They’re not talking about launching it today. Chargers get rolled out. Was it the Taycan that even launched with no charger able to provide what it can take at peak? It’s for the future. A while ago there we no chargers for any cars. Complaining that there’s no charger for it right now misses the point.

KCross

cruisey1987 wrote: »

True, but it's getting closer. We're going from lab prototypes that barely function to something that can be manufactured in a production line

Maybe.
There is a big leap though to get from cell production to convincing a large OEM to buy your cells.... whats the reliability like, longevity, does it scale in production, cost etc.

And they are talking about it being ready in 5 years time! :pac: .... we've heard it all before! My guess is its kite flying for another round of funding!

graememk

ELM327 wrote: »

100 miles / 160km in 5 minutes in 2025?
You can nearly do that today in a model 3 at a V3 supercharger.

I know its a nice figure and gets it into simple terms, Putting charging rate in distance/time is so variable.

If your car does 20kWh/100km - to get 160 km of range in 5 minutes, is 384kW
16km/100km - you only need 307kW

As ELM said, they arent far off the mark now. The porsche taycan can peak at 270, but im sure getting it down to 20kwh/100km might be tricky!

pdpmur

graememk wrote: »

As ELM said, they arent far off the mark now. The porsche taycan can peak at 270, but im sure getting it down to 20kwh/100km might be tricky!

.. and as for the lumpen masses, Hyundai has recently released a teaser about its 2021 Ioniq 5 that also boasts of 100km in range gained in 5 minutes of charging...
https://www.hyundai.com/worldwide/en/ioniq/ioniq5

the_amazing_raisin

pdpmur wrote: »

.. and as for the lumpen masses, Hyundai has recently released a teaser about its 2021 Ioniq 5 that also boasts of 100km in range gained in 5 minutes of charging...
https://www.hyundai.com/worldwide/en/ioniq/ioniq5

I like the camping videos, 3kW of power is enough for an electric cooker and maybe a small fridge, plus some lights


That's more than a lot of campsites will give you

liamog

Thread for the car here https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2058146365

Water John

Here is an interesting video on the Model 3 motor. It's a bit tecky and suited to physics nerds. The Prius uses a similar design.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=esUb7Zy5Oio

McGiver

IrishHomer wrote: »

Sky News have a story claiming a new battery invented to charge in five minutes

http://news.sky.com/story/new-electric-car-battery-can-be-fully-charged-in-five-minutes-12192253

MJohnston wrote: »

The Guardian article gives better, though still not enough, detail:

Both articles are not properly digested and are not getting it right.

Proper article directly from the source by someone who knows about the subject is here:
https://www.electrive.com/2021/01/19/storedot-to-showcase-sample-cells-for-potential-partners/

They are aiming for 300 km in 5 minutes. That's something like 500 kW charger, well based on the amperage and voltage etc.

EDIT: They are saying 10C charging in the video and demonstrated that with a scooter battery.

ELM327 wrote: »

100 miles / 160km in 5 minutes in 2025?
You can nearly do that today in a model 3 at a V3 supercharger.

300 km / 5 mins is at least double than what Tesla can do at the moment.

Saying that they downgraded their goal from 300 miles to 300 kms, so let's see if they can meet that objective.

liamog

Saw on the ID Facebook group today, May is the expected reveal of the ID.4 GTX and the ID.5 (ID.4 Coupé) in October.

unkel

McGiver wrote: »

300 km / 5 mins is at least double than what Tesla can do at the moment.

Well over double. That said, how important is this superfast charging really? It's nice to have for sure but after driving for 300km you'd need a break anyway. You'd barely make it to the toilet and back in 5 minutes. And if you want a coffee / snack too it would take at least 10 minutes and that's before stretching your legs or eating / drinking.

Anything quicker than 15 minutes per 300km wouldn't really add much value for me

ELM327

I agree Unkel. I think we need to shift the focus from adding super fast charging at the start of a session, to maintaining high speeds throughout - albeit slightly lower than peak.

Take the Taycan and the etron. If you charge to 75% the taycan wins by >10 mins, but the etron is faster to 90 by a couple of minutes and about 15 minutes faster to 99%. Even though the Taycan peaks at 270kW vs 150kW for the etron. (Source for all of this is on various charging curve videos on Bjorn's channel).

To add 300km, the Taycan needs to charge above 90 and the Etron needs to charge to 99, so the Etron is faster for that comparison despite the much lower peak.

AndyBoBandy

When you have busses & HGV's with 200-300kWh batteries in them, then this sort of super fast charging will be probably needed..

graememk

AndyBoBandy wrote: »

When you have busses & HGV's with 200-300kWh batteries in them, then this sort of super fast charging will be probably needed..

But bigger batteries can naturally charge faster provided you can provide the power.

A 200kwh battery charging at 200kw is still only 1C

Eg a m3 long range charging at 150 kw is charging at 2C
At the v3 supercharger, can charge at 270kw which is 3.6C

It's not the big batteries that need the speed it's the normal size ones that do..

McGiver

unkel wrote: »

Well over double. That said, how important is this superfast charging really? It's nice to have for sure but after driving for 300km you'd need a break anyway. You'd barely make it to the toilet and back in 5 minutes. And if you want a coffee / snack too it would take at least 10 minutes and that's before stretching your legs or eating / drinking.

Anything quicker than 15 minutes per 300km wouldn't really add much value for me

Yeah of course, we the innovators (not really early adopters yet), agree. We are OK to wait 15-30 minutes with kids for loo, coffee etc. General population - not much so, they're impatient.

I tried to explain this to many people, to show that EVs are very well doable in today's Ireland, that you should/need to take a break anyway and the car can charge, but generally it's not getting a positive response.

Now, saying that was talking about the ID3 with one fella from Donegal and he asked me - can the ID3 get from Donegal to Galway City and back on one charge? It's a route he would be doing weekly or twice a month. It's 400 km round trip. You could maybe do it in summer, can't do it most of the year and needs 45 min stop for charging at 50 kW DC somewhere along the way. If there was a DC 100+ kW capable charger somewhere on the route then you could cut it to 25 minutes. I think it's still more than most people are willing to accept - people are impatient and always in a hurry.

Obviously, we know that no one is (or should be) undertaking any such journey without any sort of a break, and you could of course charge 11 kW AC for few hours while the car sits idle! But let's assume it's a roundtrip with minimum break, and then you see the issue is the infrastructure on all primary motorway and national roads - it doesn't exist in most of the country. Ionity is simply not enough as it stands - you would need at least 10 more hubs like these to make any sort of journeys possible and you'd still need to wait 20-ish minutes to charge on 100 kW+ DC.

So yeah, fast charging is really needed - Tesla know it that's why they've been doing what they've been doing.

McGiver

graememk wrote: »

It's not the big batteries that need the speed it's the normal size ones that do..

Exactly, and the consensus is that the battery packs will stabilise at 50-60 kWh in fact, not on massive packs. So the future is medium sized battery packs + super fast charging. Medium size packs keep the costs down and will allow EVs to be used by the masses. Large packs are too expensive and will be only for the rich / high-end segment.

ELM327

Medium sized segment now, will be small in a few years.
50-60kWh is simply not enough.

liamog

ELM327 wrote: »

Medium sized segment now, will be small in a few years.
50-60kWh is simply not enough.

I agree with this, the downward march of battery prices and the increase in energy density have got us to where we are. I think that's at least one more cycle of both required (taking us to 2025) before we start to see a stabilisation of EV range. Personally I think it's going to be somewhere between 80kWh and 100kWh to give a reliable range of 500km.

unkel

ELM327 wrote: »

I think we need to shift the focus from adding super fast charging at the start of a session, to maintaining high speeds throughout

Agree with that too. If I plug my Tesla in when near empty, it starts charging at 130kW but that speed starts dropping immediately. If you are not an EV nerd, this must looks very worrying. VW have done that much better with the etron which has a decent flat charging curve which makes a lot more sense if you want to get people to adopt to EVs

As McGiver rightly says, we are still only in the innovator stage in this country, not even early adopter yet.