What exactly is happening with AstraZeneca?

30-01-2021 04:07PM

Deleted User wrote: »

The actions of the British Government to divert promised supply from the E.U. will inevitably lead to an increase in the net number of people in Europe contracting and dying or suffering long term respiratory issues from Covid infection. It is indisputable and when you understand this it is understandable why the E.U. Commission are so irate. It is a matter of life or death.

Where is the evidence that the British Government conspired to "divert promised supply from the EU"?

The allegation you are leveling against the UK is a rather serious one. It's not enough to point to two contracts and draw a biased and invented conclusion.

You presumably have evidence to back up that assertion? And I'm not referring to inferences either.

Where is the direct evidence that backs up that extraordinary claim?

fly_agaric · 30-01-2021 04:10PM

hmmm wrote: »

That's all very well but we're a small country with small orders which aren't of much interest to a pharma company. If we all went on our own I could see Belgium deciding it's going to prevent the Pfizer plant exporting, Germany offering to purchase 100 million doses as long as it gets them first, and then the French refusing to transport vaccines to Ireland until their population are all vaccinated.

No-one wins if everyone does it by themselves, we all lose - the biggest losers in the current scenario are actually the bigger countries in Europe who could easily have cut their own deals.

I totally agree with you and accept the logic behind the EU collective purchasing & think it was needed. What is happening demonstrates that.

I was restating (for effect) some of the old(er) posts on the thread that had argued for ditching ethics and adopting reckless policies to get vaccines to Ireland much faster than EU programme allows, and illustrating how they seem to contradict attacking the EU for being "nationalist" over the vaccine export control measures it is bringing in.

Dyr · 30-01-2021 04:14PM

Deleted User wrote: »

A good, and remarkably factual, illustration in the Times today of what is going on with AZ and the EU.

(I particularly like the depiction of Matt Hancock at the bottom)

As a cartoon, it's absolutely ****e.

downcow · 30-01-2021 05:16PM

micosoft wrote: »

Article 16 was never activated. A proposal was included in emergency legislation to deal with AZ's breach of contract and the Vaccine nationalism of the UK. It was withdrawn within hours after the Irish government made it's views on the matter known.

Nobody cares in the EU about Leavers or Remainers anymore - Brexit is done and whatever toxic debate occurs in the UK it is of no consequence for the EU.

Britain was "successful" because unfortunately the EU underestimated how low they would go - taking imports of vaccines while blocking exports. The EU needs to recognise the UK has an unfriendly state - which is exactly what the emergency legislation does. Brexit Britain has been a complete failure so far and its success in Vaccine nationalism will be a pyrrhic victory within months.

Don’t agree. There is a lot of anti-UK sentiment on here.
To say the UK stopped low on these vaccines when the Eu has just spent a year using ni peace as a levering tool to get their own way.

Fair play to the UK for taking the lead in ensuring poorer nations get the vaccines. I understand we have agreed that for every vaccine used in the UK there is a promise to buy one for a poorer nation

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/uk-leads-way-as-nations-endorse-landmark-pledge-to-make-coronavirus-vaccines-and-treatments-available-to-all

volchitsa · 30-01-2021 05:28PM

downcow wrote: »

Don’t agree. There is a lot of anti-UK sentiment on here.
To say the UK stopped low on these vaccines when the Eu has just spent a year using ni peace as a levering tool to get their own way.

Fair play to the UK for taking the lead in ensuring poorer nations get the vaccines. I understand we have agreed that for every vaccine used in the UK there is a promise to buy one for a poorer nation

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/uk-leads-way-as-nations-endorse-landmark-pledge-to-make-coronavirus-vaccines-and-treatments-available-to-all

That's an article from April. What are they doing now?

ThePanjandrum · 30-01-2021 05:31PM

Deleted User wrote: »

The E.U. has a problem with AstraZeneca having being coerced by the UK to dirvert product which the E.U. paid to develop and produce. It is a low point in the recent history of the U.K. but when one thinks that one has witnessed the nadir of their depravity they surpass themselves.
The behaviour of the UK government and their Apologists is unforgivable.

When did they pay to develop the Oxford vaccine?

brickster69 · 30-01-2021 05:41PM

ThePanjandrum wrote: »

When did they pay to develop the Oxford vaccine?

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/government-asks-regulator-to-approve-supply-of-oxfordastrazeneca-vaccine#:~:text=The%20government%20has%20previously%20announced,announced%20on%2017%20May%202020

ThePanjandrum · 30-01-2021 05:41PM

fly_agaric wrote: »

Anyway legal question of can AZ be held accountable for it (i.e. in a court) aside, the company underdelivered on their target by a large margin and seems to have totally blindsided and shocked the EU by admitting this late in the day (right before approval of their vaccine).

It was reported in November that AstraZeneca was having production problems. The various Governments involved would have known this.

volchitsa · 30-01-2021 05:45PM

brickster69 wrote: »

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/government-asks-regulator-to-approve-supply-of-oxfordastrazeneca-vaccine#:~:text=The%20government%20has%20previously%20announced,announced%20on%2017%20May%202020

That's the UK government. Something under £90 million.
Meanwhile the EU has paid a lot more. Three times as much.

The contract, agreed to last year by the European Commission and the drugmaker, allows the EU’s member countries to buy 300 million doses of the AstraZeneca vaccine, with an option for a further 100 million doses. It’s one of several contracts the EU’s executive branch has with vaccine makers to secure a total of more than two billion shots.

As part of the “advanced purchase agreement" with vaccine companies, the EU has invested €336 million ($408 million) to finance the production of AstraZeneca vaccines at four factories

https://www.france24.com/en/europe/20210129-european-union-gives-go-ahead-to-astrazeneca-covid-19-vaccine-amid-dispute

FileNotFound · 30-01-2021 05:46PM

volchitsa wrote: »

That's the UK government. Something under £ 90 million.
Meanwhile the EU has paid a lot more.

https://www.france24.com/en/europe/20210129-european-union-gives-go-ahead-to-astrazeneca-covid-19-vaccine-amid-dispute

Crying over spilt milk now.

More important that we move forward.

brickster69 · 30-01-2021 05:48PM

volchitsa wrote: »

That's the UK government. Something under £90 million.
Meanwhile the EU has paid a lot more. Three times as much.

https://www.france24.com/en/europe/20210129-european-union-gives-go-ahead-to-astrazeneca-covid-19-vaccine-amid-dispute

EU paid to increase production in the EU facilities not develop the vaccine.

volchitsa · 30-01-2021 05:48PM

FileNotFound wrote: »

Crying over spilt milk now.

More important that we move forward.

Oh I think they will. I think the EU has no intention of having an interminable court case, they just want to make sure nobody else tries that little wheeze on them again.

...Ghost... · 30-01-2021 05:49PM

Dempo1 wrote: »

I don't believe for a second some low level EU official pushed the but on Article 16, Ursula had a hand in this, just beggars belief the most senior of EU officials were not involved in this outrageous stupidity.

You quoted my post when referring to a low level level diplomat why exactly? I made no statement of a "low level" diplomat. Go back and read.

volchitsa · 30-01-2021 05:53PM

brickster69 wrote: »

EU paid to increase production in the EU facilities not develop the vaccine.

LOL

SO when the US announced it was investing $1 bn for the "development, production and delivery of University of Oxford's upcoming COVID-19 vaccine", you think the production and delivery parts don't count?

PCeeeee · 30-01-2021 05:53PM

downcow wrote: »

Don’t agree. There is a lot of anti-UK sentiment on here.

There is. Equally there is plenty of anti EU/Ireland sentiment.

josip · 30-01-2021 05:55PM

A little background on the Oxford vaccine and its origins, both written before the current spat.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/nov/23/coronavirus-scientists-developed-oxford-vaccine-at-breakneck-speed

https://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/2020/dec/21/inside-oxfords-coronavirus-vaccine-development

Melanchthon · 30-01-2021 05:56PM

volchitsa wrote: »

That's the UK government. Something under £90 million.
Meanwhile the EU has paid a lot more. Three times as much.

https://www.france24.com/en/europe/20210129-european-union-gives-go-ahead-to-astrazeneca-covid-19-vaccine-amid-dispute

The EU didn't put forward money for development, they are paying a lower price per dose that the UK on a cost sale vaccine (which likely indicates less capital put into production) and some of that money hasn't been paid.

volchitsa · 30-01-2021 05:59PM

Melanchthon wrote: »

The EU didn't put forward money for development, they are paying a lower price per dose that the UK on a cost sale vaccine (which likely indicates less capital put into production) and some of that money hasn't been paid.

Actually they did. As the link shows.

ThePanjandrum · 30-01-2021 06:01PM

brickster69 wrote: »

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/government-asks-regulator-to-approve-supply-of-oxfordastrazeneca-vaccine#:~:text=The%20government%20has%20previously%20announced,announced%20on%2017%20May%202020

Sorry, this is about the UK providing funding. haphaphap had said

The E.U. has a problem with AstraZeneca having being coerced by the UK to dirvert product which the E.U. paid to develop and produce.

I don't think that the EU did not pay to develop this vaccine though it may have funded others.

Melanchthon · 30-01-2021 06:02PM

volchitsa wrote: »

Actually they did. As the link shows.

Your link say this

[As part of the “advanced purchase agreement" with vaccine companies, the EU has invested €336 million ($408 million) to finance the production of AstraZeneca vaccines at four factories.[/QUOTE]

Where does it mention development?

ThePanjandrum · 30-01-2021 06:15PM

volchitsa wrote: »

Actually they did. As the link shows.

Article 7.1 says what the EU funding was for:

The Commission and the Participating Member States shall provide funding to enable AstraZeneca to: (i) harness sufficient drug substance and drug filling and finishing capacity in Europe, (ii) advance procurement of critical components including glass vials/stoppers, media, and other critical components to supply finished product of the Vaccine, and (iii) fill, finish and package the final Vaccine for distribution (the “Funding”). The Commission and the Participating Member States shall provide the Funding in an amount equal to the estimated Cost of Goods which at the Effective Date is estimated to be [Redacted] for the Initial Europe Doses.

So the EU funding was to provide production facilities and some materials. It did not fund Research and Development.

...Ghost... · 30-01-2021 06:16PM

Melanchthon wrote: »

The EU didn't put forward money for development, they are paying a lower price per dose that the UK on a cost sale vaccine (which likely indicates less capital put into production) and some of that money hasn't been paid.

They did put money forward for development. And the lower cost per unit might have something to do with the volume purchased. The EU population is a bit higher than the UK. Buy in bulk and pay less per unit.

volchitsa · 30-01-2021 06:25PM

ThePanjandrum wrote: »

Article 7.1 says what the EU funding was for:

So the EU funding was to provide production facilities and some materials. It did not fund Research and Development.

Same difference in this case. The production facilities belong to Astra Zeneca, not the EU. The US had already handed them a billion dollars which they'd presumably used for the early stages of research and development.

In normal circumstances a pharmaceutical company bears all of those costs without governement help. That's the point here, not the detail of how the compant spends the money.

brickster69 · 30-01-2021 06:36PM

volchitsa wrote: »

Same difference in this case. The production facilities belong to Astra Zeneca, not the EU. The US had already handed them a billion dollars which they'd presumably used for the early stages of research and development.

In normal circumstances a pharmaceutical company bears all of those costs without governement help. That's the point here, not the detail of how the compant spends the money.

They don't though, pretty sure they are subcontractors, the Belgium one is certainly American owned.

Anyway the only reason the product has come to market this quick is through early R&D funding which the UK and US has contributed 7 times more than the EU / capita.

30-01-2021 06:41PM

The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster, Michael Gove, announced in the past hour that the EU "recognize they made a mistake" by invoking a Brexit deal clause to prevent coronavirus vaccine shipments from entering the UK. Hopefully now, given all that has transpired over the course of this thread, posters now will acknowledge the grave folly made by the EU last night.

Let's not forget that during Brexit negotiations, the EU cynically anchored themselves to the dangerous idea of re-erecting a border on the island of Ireland, yet when it suits their interests, they have no problem doing exactly that - without consulting either the UK or Irish Governments - and just 29-days after the Brexit deal had been agreed.

The astonishing irresponsibility and hypocrisy of this political malignancy know no bounds!

The EU may live to rue the day when they decided to impose vaccine nationalism in the midst of a pandemic.

brickster69 · 30-01-2021 06:53PM

Deleted User wrote: »

The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster, Michael Gove, announced in the past hour that the EU "recognize they made a mistake" by invoking a Brexit deal clause to prevent coronavirus vaccine shipments from entering the UK. Hopefully now, given all that has transpired over the course of this thread, posters now will acknowledge the grave folly made by the EU last night.

Let's not forget that during Brexit negotiations, the EU cynically anchored themselves to the dangerous idea of re-erecting a border on the island of Ireland, yet when it suits their interests, they have no problem doing exactly that - without consulting either the UK or Irish Governments - and just 29-days after the Brexit deal had been agreed.

The astonishing irresponsibility and hypocrisy of this political malignancy know no bounds!

The EU may live to rue the day when they decided to impose vaccine nationalism in the midst of a pandemic.

And then during the course of yesterday they absolutely broke the contract re. Confidentiality by publishing parts of the agreement that were agreed to be redacted. It was probably an error on someone's part but still !

In this situation you would hope that the people involved in making decisions get advice from the companies who are actually trying to fix this disease.

Melanchthon · 30-01-2021 07:02PM

...Ghost... wrote: »

They did put money forward for development. And the lower cost per unit might have something to do with the volume purchased. The EU population is a bit higher than the UK. Buy in bulk and pay less per unit.

True actually hadn't thought about the volume order aspect in terms of the unit price.

In terms of the development funding? Nothing I have seen indicates the EU put money in for development?

brickster69 · 30-01-2021 07:44PM

...Ghost... wrote: »

The EU population is a bit higher than the UK. Buy in bulk and pay less per unit.

Probably works well with a company selling Sausages but sometimes you are better off buying up stock at whatever you can for some things and get it quickly. I doubt Israel are crying at paying double than what they should of.

PCeeeee · 30-01-2021 08:10PM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster, Michael Gove, announced in the past hour that the EU "recognize they made a mistake" by invoking a Brexit deal clause to prevent coronavirus vaccine shipments from entering the UK. Hopefully now, given all that has transpired over the course of this thread, posters now will acknowledge the grave folly made by the EU last night.

Let's not forget that during Brexit negotiations, the EU cynically anchored themselves to the dangerous idea of re-erecting a border on the island of Ireland, yet when it suits their interests, they have no problem doing exactly that - without consulting either the UK or Irish Governments - and just 29-days after the Brexit deal had been agreed.

The astonishing irresponsibility and hypocrisy of this political malignancy know no bounds!

The EU may live to rue the day when they decided to impose vaccine nationalism in the midst of a pandemic.

No doubt in the Duchy of Lancaster and indeed throughout the venerable and honourable United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland the words of good Chancellor carry tremendous weight.

Less so here.

Natterjack from Kerry · 30-01-2021 08:32PM

Deleted User wrote: »

The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster, Michael Gove, announced in the past hour that the EU "recognize they made a mistake" by invoking a Brexit deal clause to prevent coronavirus vaccine shipments from entering the UK. Hopefully now, given all that has transpired over the course of this thread, posters now will acknowledge the grave folly made by the EU last night.

The grave folly was committed by the Irish government last night. Their obsession with the border had them misjudge this situation, overestimate the real implications of what the EU was correctly doing, and so they undermined the EU. While the commission played ball, I am sure they are rightly furious. As am I, and I am sure, most Irish people. It is not for the first time that this preciousness about northern republican sensibilities has provoked the Irish government to make its own people pay a high price.

What exactly is happening with AstraZeneca?

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