N24 - Cahir to Limerick Junction [design and planning underway]

marno21 · 16-10-2020 9:29pm

spacetweek wrote: »

Surprisingly the TII have indicated that this scheme will be a 35 km motorway, the M24.

Not sure of the logic there that this would be motorway and the stretch east of Cahir won’t be. The N24 between Tipp Town and Cahir is carries less than half the traffic of east of Cahir. If east of Cahir was dualled it would also take some traffic off the N72 and N25.

steeler j · 16-10-2020 10:02pm

spacetweek wrote: »

Surprisingly the TII have indicated that this scheme will be a 35 km motorway, the M24.

A surprise,I was hoping for a type 2 dual carriageway

BelfastVanMan · 16-10-2020 10:27pm

steeler j wrote: »

A surprise,I was hoping for a type 2 dual carriageway

It will probably make more sense when the final piece, Ballysimon to Limerick Junction, is built.
Presumably it will be Type 1 DC also, and then it will be M24 from Limerick to Cahir.

steeler j · 16-10-2020 10:43pm

BelfastVanMan wrote: »

It will probably make more sense when the final piece, Ballysimon to Limerick Junction, is built.
Presumably it will be Type 1 DC also, and then it will be M24 from Limerick to Cahir.

Yes ,the study area goes west of oola

KrisW1001 · 16-10-2020 11:34pm

How does traffic volume on that corridor (Rosslare - Limerick) justify a motorway (Type 1) cross-section? 2+2 (Type 2) would be an excellent solution, and I would be amazed if anything bigger was built.

N25, a much more trafficked route, connecting larger population centres, is still Type 1 Singla carriageway for most of its length between Waterford and Cork.

spacetweek · 17-10-2020 2:45pm

Indeed I'd worry that if the anti-M20 brigade got wind of this they'd scream that you don't need an M20 if there's going to an M24 Limerick-Cahir as that could be used for Limerick-Cork journeys.

I really don't see the need for a motorway here.

steeler j · 17-10-2020 2:51pm

spacetweek wrote: »

Indeed I'd worry that if the anti-M20 brigade got wind of this they'd scream that you don't need an M20 if there's going to an M24 Limerick-Cahir as that could be used for Limerick-Cork journeys.

I really don't see the need for a motorway here.

Great point

Pete_Cavan · 17-10-2020 4:33pm

Would a M24 become the primary route between Waterford and Cork (via M8), in one or both of most people's preferred route and designation/signing? The Waterford bypass toll may mean TII/government dont want to do this. Adding that traffic might justify motorway. Maybe send it south of Cahir and tie into an upgraded M8 J11. Could revise the N25 west of Waterford to a national secondary and the N24 become N/M25 which would run from Wexford to Limerick via Waterford? It would tie together much of motorway network, linking M7, M8, M9 and M11, plus M18, M20 and M21.

Chris_5339762 · 18-10-2020 10:49am

It would be an alternative... there'd be little difference in the time if the M24 existed.

However you have the Fermoy toll to think about as well, and quite a bit of extra distance. That said, its less of a diversion than you might think doing geography in your head.

steeler j · 18-10-2020 11:19am

I think Cork to Waterford via the m8/n24 is about 19 km more

KrisW1001 · 18-10-2020 12:15pm

Waterford-Cork via N24 is a long detour (15% furhter) along a road that is much, much worse than the N25, and it would also funnel Waterford and Rosslare-originated traffic onto what is already the busiest arm of the Dunkettle interchange when it gets to Cork. Not a good idea.

N25 is also the Irish part of Euroroute E-30, so its status as the main route between Rosslare and Port of Cork is assured.

On the type of road, Type 1 has to be a mistake. The recent presentation (https://www.tii.ie/tii-library/conferences_and_seminars/nrc/nra-nrc-2019/12-Eoin-Doyle-Arup-Presentation.pdf , page 17) on 2+2 expressways gives traffic counts in 2018 for the two N24 sections up for improvement.

N24 Cahir to Limerick Junction 6,563
N24 Waterford to Cahir 13,989

Average annual daily traffic of 6600 vehicles does not justify a Type 2 design (10~20k per year), let alone a Type 1. But, if you look at Waterford-Cahir, there's a high possibility that users are avoiding the substandard N24 west of Cahir and using an alternative route to Limerick, so traffic of 10k+ per year if there were a proper road seems reasonable.

steeler j · 18-10-2020 1:44pm

I wonder what is the number of vehicles that leave Waterford and arrive in Limerick

BelfastVanMan · 18-10-2020 2:43pm

KrisW1001 wrote: »

Waterford-Cork via N24 is a long detour (15% furhter) along a road that is much, much worse than the N25, and it would also funnel Waterford and Rosslare-originated traffic onto what is already the busiest arm of the Dunkettle interchange when it gets to Cork. Not a good idea.

N25 is also the Irish part of Euroroute E-30, so its status as the main route between Rosslare and Port of Cork is assured.

On the type of road, Type 1 has to be a mistake. The recent presentation (https://www.tii.ie/tii-library/conferences_and_seminars/nrc/nra-nrc-2019/12-Eoin-Doyle-Arup-Presentation.pdf , page 17) on 2+2 expressways gives traffic counts in 2018 for the two N24 sections up for improvement.

N24 Cahir to Limerick Junction 6,563
N24 Waterford to Cahir 13,989

Average annual daily traffic of 6600 vehicles does not justify a Type 2 design (10~20k per year), let alone a Type 1. But, if you look at Waterford-Cahir, there's a high possibility that users are avoiding the substandard N24 west of Cahir and using an alternative route to Limerick, so traffic of 10k+ per year if there were a proper road seems reasonable.

Futureproofing?
If the M20 (Whenever that comes) is closed for whatever reason, then M8/M24 would make a good alternative route, while doing it's own job of being the M24.
Probably not reason enough on it's own, but hey; a bit of Futureproofing is maybe just what we need for once.

KrisW1001 · 18-10-2020 5:33pm

BelfastVanMan wrote: »

Futureproofing?
If the M20 (Whenever that comes) is closed for whatever reason, then M8/M24 would make a good alternative route, while doing it's own job of being the M24.
Probably not reason enough on it's own, but hey; a bit of Futureproofing is maybe just what we need for once.

I don't think you know this road, somehow. A 2+2 is already a huge amount of future-proofing for this route overall, and for this section in particular.

Here's the latest data on traffic on the national road network:
https://www.tii.ie/tii-library/strategic-planning/tii-road-network-indicators/TII-National-Roads-Network-Indicators-2018.pdf

Page 9 shows the AADT counts for each stretch of primary and secondary road. You can see there that the only part of N24 that gets over 10,000 vehicles a day is the stretch between Carrick-on-Suir, Clonmel and Cahir.

A 2+2 is good for 20,000 vehicles a day, and that upper limit can be increased by changing junction designs (longer slip-roads, elimination of roundabouts). Type 1 with two lanes each way has a capacity of 38,000 vehicles per day, but costs about half as much again to build, and has a larger land-take.

Currently, traffic on this section of N24 is at just 6,000 a day, so today's figure could triple, and a 2+2 would still have enough capacity to deal with it.

Below the motorway tier, we still have a road network of sub-standard single-carriageway rural roads - the problem people face on these roads aren't to do with high volume of traffic, but the extremely low capacity of the existing roads. Upgrading these to 2+2 will fix the problem for decades. It will also draw some medium-distance traffic back off the motorway network.

BelfastVanMan · 18-10-2020 6:29pm

KrisW1001 wrote: »

I don't think you know this road, somehow. A 2+2 is already a huge amount of future-proofing for this route overall, and for this section in particular.

Here's the latest data on traffic on the national road network:
https://www.tii.ie/tii-library/strategic-planning/tii-road-network-indicators/TII-National-Roads-Network-Indicators-2018.pdf

Page 9 shows the AADT counts for each stretch of primary and secondary road. You can see there that the only part of N24 that gets over 10,000 vehicles a day is the stretch between Carrick-on-Suir, Clonmel and Cahir.

A 2+2 is good for 20,000 vehicles a day, and that upper limit can be increased by changing junction designs (longer slip-roads, elimination of roundabouts). Type 1 with two lanes each way has a capacity of 38,000 vehicles per day, but costs about half as much again to build, and has a larger land-take.

Currently, traffic on this section of N24 is at just 6,000 a day, so today's figure could triple, and a 2+2 would still have enough capacity to deal with it.

Below the motorway tier, we still have a road network of sub-standard single-carriageway rural roads - the problem people face on these roads aren't to do with high volume of traffic, but the extremely low capacity of the existing roads. Upgrading these to 2+2 will fix the problem for decades. It will also draw some medium-distance traffic back off the motorway network.

I drove it 3 times a week, from Ballysimon to Waterford for 5 years until very recently.

However, I take many of your points, there.

Pete_Cavan · 18-10-2020 6:46pm

KrisW1001 wrote: »

Waterford-Cork via N24 is a long detour (15% furhter) along a road that is much, much worse than the N25, and it would also funnel Waterford and Rosslare-originated traffic onto what is already the busiest arm of the Dunkettle interchange when it gets to Cork. Not a good idea.

N25 is also the Irish part of Euroroute E-30, so its status as the main route between Rosslare and Port of Cork is assured.

The point is is that if the N24 is 2+2 or even motorway, it would be a much higher quality route to take than N25. The majority being single carriageway, lack of movement on Castlematyr/Killeagh bypasses and the proliferation of roundabouts at Dungarvan with none of these to be addressed before the N24 would mean the N24 would become an attractive route; constant overtaking opportunity, no towns to pass through, etc. I don't think Dunkettle is an issue here, very little if any traffic originating from Waterford would be hitting it at peak time anyway.

I don't see why E30 couldn't be changed, in fact if a higher quality alternative route becomes available doing so would make sense. It would also link Rosslare with Foynes port. In the context of cross continental routes, the extra distance means nothing.

The traffic levels certainly call into question the need for motorway but it seems that is what TII are planning. As I said, if a level of Waterford - Cork traffic is added it may help justify it and 2+2 if not.

Chris_5339762 · 18-10-2020 8:10pm

All that said, if the N24 is FULL MOTORWAY and we're still left toddling around Dungarvans seven roundabouts, or we're stuck back to the lake waiting to get through Castlemartyr with no end in sight, it would be a disgrace.

marno21 · 21-10-2020 10:45pm

Website launched at https://n24cahirlimerick.ie/

Route options in Q2 2021 as previously mentioned.

davidk1394 · 22-10-2020 8:27am

The M24 is going to be passing thorough my farm. I'm south of Cahir and I can't see it going ahead for a number of years.

BelfastVanMan · 22-10-2020 8:32am

davidk1394 wrote: »

The M24 is going to be passing thorough my farm. I'm south of Cahir and I can't see it going ahead for a number of years.

The route hasn't been selected yet.

davidk1394 · 22-10-2020 10:00am

BelfastVanMan wrote: »

The route hasn't been selected yet.

Well there's a corridor and rock samples taken around here and it caused more havoc with trying to get planning

Cookiemunster · 22-10-2020 10:13am

davidk1394 wrote: »

Well there's a corridor and rock samples taken around here and it caused more havoc with trying to get planning

There aren't even route options published, never mind the final route, so whatever is being done does not in any way mean that the road will definitely go through your land.

davidk1394 · 23-10-2020 8:33am

Cookiemunster wrote: »

There aren't even route options published, never mind the final route, so whatever is being done does not in any way mean that the road will definitely go through your land.

This is the letter I recieved earlier this year

Cookiemunster · 23-10-2020 8:55am

davidk1394 wrote: »

This is the letter I recieved earlier this year

That doesn't mean that the road will be built on your property. It means that until they've decided what the route is going to be that nothing can be built on the possible corridor.

When the final route is decided then building will again be allowed on the areas not chosen.

davidk1394 · 23-10-2020 9:02am

Cookiemunster wrote: »

That doesn't mean that the road will be built on your property. It means that until they've decided what the route is going to be that nothing can be built on the possible corridor.

When the final route is decided then building will again be allowed on the areas not chosen.

Well if thats the case it's a f##king disgrace. They held up people all along this corridor for the last 20 years all for the sake they might build a road here.

nordydan · 23-10-2020 9:28am

davidk1394 wrote: »

Well if thats the case it's a f##king disgrace. They held up people all along this corridor for the last 20 years all for the sake they might build a road here.

I think if they didn't, then people built everywhere then when the went to build the road they'd have to knock houses. Its their preferred option

davidk1394 · 23-10-2020 9:38am

nordydan wrote: »

I think if they didn't, then people built everywhere then when the went to build the road they'd have to knock houses. Its their preferred option

Why drag it out for 20 years and if they already have a corridor why change it so. I'd love to see it move away from me but given my location I highly doubt it'll be changed

riddlinrussell · 23-10-2020 11:12am

davidk1394 wrote: »

Why drag it out for 20 years and if they already have a corridor why change it so. I'd love to see it move away from me but given my location I highly doubt it'll be changed

Scale of these projects forces it unfortunately, they will have identified the best options 20 years ago, not had the money, but not wanted to make it a massive pain to negotiate when they eventually had the cash to do it, in the meanwhile regulations and environmental rules will have changed, so when it comes time to do the work in earnest they might suddenly have to completely change the route due to some un-anticipated reason.

All of this doesn't change the fact its a massive pain in the hole for locals wanting to build, but its a difficult one to see a clear answer to, in hindsight, something granted planning permission back then would have been up for 20 years use by a landowner even if they had to come back and knock it now. But every year they will have looked at the restriction and not known if the next year would suddenly bring funding and they end up with a load of pissed off locals having to knock their brand new houses/barns etc.

KrisW1001 · 23-10-2020 11:42am

Where you are living is probably a place where there's only one sane route through. Considering the way the country is around there, there will be more than a few places like that along the route: nobody's going to try build a road through the Galties. The simplest route would be a northern bypass of each town/village along the way, but that cuts through a lot of very good farmland, which adds cost and disruption.

You're right, though - it's stupid to wait so long between saying "we need a road, and it'll have to go roughly here" and "we will build the new road exactly along this line"; this is a major problem with how we plan roads in this country. The only upside is that the reserved corridor for a road is always much, much wider than the finished land-take, so once the final option is decided, you could find it far enough away from you to not be an issue. A 2+2 (which this will be) takes about a 30-40 metre wide strip of land, compared to 80+ m for a motorway.

Pete_Cavan · 23-10-2020 12:08pm

Where is this 20 years coming from? A preferred corridor selected 20 years ago could not be sterilised for that long and will be subject to change, particularly due to changes in environmental legislation, designations, etc. A few years ago, courts ruled that a site on Sandwith Street in Dublin which was required for the DU Station which had a valid RO could not continue to be sterilised after they didn't move forward with CPO of the site. This was a bigger, higher profile and more nationally important project yet they couldn't prevent planning permission within a few years, I don't see how vague notions of this road from two decades ago could be preventing planning now. Whats being referred to in the letter must be based on the process since the project was reactivated recently, not 20 years ago.

marno21 · 23-10-2020 12:38pm

A route was selected for the N24 Pallasgreen-Cahir dual carriageway in c. 2009. It was likely preserved in the County Development Plan since.

Now that there’s 20 or so major new schemes in planning since 2018, one of the key benefits of them is finally settling on final routes rather than having corridors sterilised around the country (many of which are 300m wide).

marno21 · 28-11-2020 5:56pm

https://irl.eu-supply.com/ctm/Supplier/PublicPurchase/179082/1/0

Tender out for LIDAR and Orthophotography surveys of the route

steeler j · 28-11-2020 8:05pm

marno21 wrote: »

https://irl.eu-supply.com/ctm/Supplier/PublicPurchase/179082/1/0

Tender out for LIDAR and Orthophotography surveys of the route

Will the routes be published before the surveys because the tender says it's for March and April

steeler j · 01-12-2020 11:12pm

A slow protest is planned for Friday afternoon through Tipperary town, Its a protest over the lack of government plan and funding for a ring road

marno21 · 09-12-2020 8:22pm

Tender out for traffic surveys for this project.

https://irl.eu-supply.com/ctm/Supplier/PublicPurchase/179698/0/0?returnUrl=ctm/Supplier/PublicTenders&b=ETENDERS_SIMPLE

steeler j · 10-12-2020 12:28pm

I got an some more information about the project yesterday,the preferred route in before Q2 2022 , application to be submitted to ABP before Q3 2024 . I hope it gets more support locally as there isn't much at the moment only a lot of negative and under minding going on

Paddico · 15-12-2020 2:28pm

steeler j wrote: »

I got an some more information about the project yesterday,the preferred route in before Q2 2022 , application to be submitted to ABP before Q3 2024 . I hope it gets more support locally as there isn't much at the moment only a lot of negative and under minding going on

What sort of neg/undermining Steeler?
I know the folk in Tipp town have been crying out for a bypass for years.

steeler j · 15-12-2020 3:42pm

Paddico wrote: »

What sort of neg/undermining Steeler?
I know the folk in Tipp town have been crying out for a bypass for years.

A couple of groupings want a ring road around the town and when u ask them about this project they say it isn't going to happen and the government have no interest in doing it ,also a lot of false facts being put out there about the situation

steeler j · 20-01-2021 1:59pm

Public consultanion on constraints study are starting on the 27 of January till the 17 of February

Limerick74 · 27-01-2021 9:52pm

steeler j wrote: »

Public consultanion on constraints study are starting on the 27 of January till the 17 of February

Virtual public consultation room now open https://n24cahirlimerick.ie/public-consultation/

riddlinrussell · 28-01-2021 10:39am

Limerick74 wrote: »

Virtual public consultation room now open https://n24cahirlimerick.ie/public-consultation/

Looking there one thing I hadn't considered, how seriously will rail be looked at here? Not really 'instead' of the road, but maybe as well as the road? Given the 2:1 PT:Road funding currently in place.

Pete_Cavan · 28-01-2021 11:41am

I would appear to me that the most logical thing to do would be to build the new road predominantly along the northern side of the rail line but deviating to avoid settlements (Pallas Green, Oola, Tip town). The rail line is quite straight and flat so likely conducive to road building. You should also have less issues with "dividing communities" or splitting farms as the rail line does those already. Space could be left between road and rail for future double tracking and level crossings addressed as part of the road junction strategy, thereby benefiting rail.

riddlinrussell · 28-01-2021 11:45am

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

I would appear to me that the most logical thing to do would be to build the new road predominantly along the northern side of the rail line but deviating to avoid settlements (Pallas Green, Oola, Tip town). The rail line is quite straight and flat so likely conducive to road building. You should also have less issues with "dividing communities" or splitting farms as the rail line does those already. Space could be left between road and rail for future double tracking and level crossings addressed as part of the road junction strategy, thereby benefiting rail.

Yeah that sounds ideal, build in road and rail junctions, makes things a bit more complex in construction but it would really be beneficial, maybe add in a passing loop or two as well as leaving space for future dualling?

steeler j · 28-01-2021 3:32pm

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

I would appear to me that the most logical thing to do would be to build the new road predominantly along the northern side of the rail line but deviating to avoid settlements (Pallas Green, Oola, Tip town). The rail line is quite straight and flat so likely conducive to road building. You should also have less issues with "dividing communities" or splitting farms as the rail line does those already. Space could be left between road and rail for future double tracking and level crossings addressed as part of the road junction strategy, thereby benefiting rail.

It could stay north of line from Tipperary town to Limerick junction after Limerick junction cross to south and go south around oola ,more than likely after tipp town it will run a long way east of the line , something very similar to the last route probably

riddlinrussell · 28-01-2021 3:47pm

I think either way, given there will be disruption in the area anyway it might be a good sell to remove the level crossings as part of the project though?

steeler j · 28-01-2021 4:01pm

riddlinrussell wrote: »

I think either way, given there will be disruption in the area anyway it might be a good sell to remove the level crossings as part of the project though?

Possibly I think there is 5 or maybe 6 level crossings on that part of the line

steeler j · 17-02-2021 4:47pm

Cycling facilities have been mentioned as part of this scheme. A proposed cycle infrastructure to connect Tipperay town and Limerick junction on the current road.There is supposed to be plenty of scope for this to be done and a lot of support for it locally

Paddico · 22-02-2021 2:11pm

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/row-over-n24-upgrade-latest-bump-in-road-for-coalition-harmony-40114173.html?fbclid=IwAR2a0Th5lZ1ygwovqmduFH5irS_VOQtITuCVNtKUbmaGeHxXLUl6_hNr3K4

steeler j · 22-02-2021 3:15pm

Paddico wrote: »

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/row-over-n24-upgrade-latest-bump-in-road-for-coalition-harmony-40114173.html?fbclid=IwAR2a0Th5lZ1ygwovqmduFH5irS_VOQtITuCVNtKUbmaGeHxXLUl6_hNr3K4

There was a number of meetings about the scheme since Christmas ,a lot of the meetings were to ease people's concern about the scheme

KrisW1001 · 22-02-2021 4:56pm

Odd for me to defend Eamon Ryan, but is there any evidence that he or the Greens are actually against this project? The Independent article linked above very carefully stops short of making any claim that Ryan is opposing the N24 improvements, although there's enough half-said to give the un-careful reader that impression.

The upgrade of N24 should not be contentious: the current road isn't just over-capacity in parts, it's downright dangerous. What is there was never designed to carry so many vehicles as it does. Actually, large sections were never designed at all.

N24 - Cahir to Limerick Junction [design and planning underway]

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