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N24 - Cahir to Limerick Junction [design and planning underway]

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  • Registered Users Posts: 315 ✭✭steeler j


    KrisW1001 wrote: »
    Odd for me to defend Eamon Ryan, but is there any evidence that he or the Greens are actually against this project? The Independent article linked above very carefully stops short of making any claim that Ryan is opposing the N24 improvements, although there's enough half-said to give the un-careful reader that impression.

    The upgrade of N24 should not be contentious: the current road isn't just over-capacity in parts, it's downright dangerous. What is there was never designed to carry so many vehicles as it does. Actually, large sections were never designed at all.

    I have seen no evidence ,only a lot of misleading claims by certain groups , the same groups were the ones pushing for the bypass for years so I don't understand why there making these misleading claims now ,I'm guessing it's a political thing


  • Registered Users Posts: 992 ✭✭✭riddlinrussell


    steeler j wrote: »
    I have seen no evidence ,only a lot of misleading claims by certain groups , the same groups were the ones pushing for the bypass for years so I don't understand why there making these misleading claims now ,I'm guessing it's a political thing

    Yeah isn't the latest 'row' actually over applying environmental criteria to all road projects? (Which we should have been doing YEARS ago). FG/FF cant claim to be committed to reducing emissions and fighting climate change then turn around and say you can't assess roads on environmental criteria, because then they wont get built... It's not going to be the sole criteria FFS...


  • Registered Users Posts: 315 ✭✭steeler j


    Yeah isn't the latest 'row' actually over applying environmental criteria to all road projects? (Which we should have been doing YEARS ago). FG/FF cant claim to be committed to reducing emissions and fighting climate change then turn around and say you can't assess roads on environmental criteria, because then they wont get built... It's not going to be the sole criteria FFS...

    There was a meeting around mid December that had the Minister of public expenditure ,local TDs,co councilors ,TII and local lobby groups . The Minister for transport declined to attend the meeting on the ground that he was busy with other government meetings at the time . That lead to individuals to declare that he didn't attend because he isn't in favor of the project,he has since had another meeting and basically backed up what TIi and the Minister of public expenditure had already stated . I believe it's a row about nothing and was over blown by people


  • Registered Users Posts: 315 ✭✭steeler j


    Local TD calling for the m20 to run by this route . Minister Eammon Ryan has now said he is going to bypass Tipperay town first and then do the rest of the route at a later date . This minister is making me feel uneasy with his attitude to road projects and I'm starting to feel he's just trying to kick cans down the road on some of the projects


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,470 ✭✭✭KrisW1001


    The whole study area covers just 32 km of road. That's the normal size for a major construction project, and its the size that will ensure interest from the larger companies that can deliver it at a lower cost per km. At around 5-7 km to just bypass the town, the setup and teardown costs of the job make it more expensive per kilometre. Plus, it makes the remaining parts more expensive too by shortening them.

    Pursuing a Tipperary Town bypass as a standalone project will result in either a longer "rosary-bead" alignment around Tipp, or longer tie-ins between the bypass and the old road alignment - either way it's money wasted. (The current road enters Tipp at a point directly opposite to where it leaves the town - there's no opportunity to design a bypass that "cuts a corner" as there was in, say, Dungarvan or Youghal)

    It seems we have the first ever Minister for Transport who wants to increase the cost of infrastructure projects...


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  • Registered Users Posts: 315 ✭✭steeler j


    KrisW1001 wrote: »
    The whole study area covers just 32 km of road. That's the normal size for a major construction project, and its the size that will ensure interest from the larger companies that can deliver it at a lower cost per km. At around 5-7 km to just bypass the town, the setup and teardown costs of the job make it more expensive per kilometre. Plus, it makes the remaining parts more expensive too by shortening them.

    Pursuing a Tipperary Town bypass as a standalone project will result in either a longer "rosary-bead" alignment around Tipp, or longer tie-ins between the bypass and the old road alignment - either way it's money wasted. (The current road enters Tipp at a point directly opposite to where it leaves the town - there's no opportunity to design a bypass that "cuts a corner" as there was in, say, Dungarvan or Youghal)

    It seems we have the first ever Minister for Transport who wants to increase the cost of infrastructure projects...

    A lot of it is political talk trying to keep or get the urban support of the town on ur side ,ur post is spot on


  • Registered Users Posts: 992 ✭✭✭riddlinrussell


    steeler j wrote: »
    A lot of it is political talk trying to keep or get the urban support of the town on ur side ,ur post is spot on

    I would speculate that he wants to hold off on projects reaching a critical point where they can be 'grandfathered in' to the climate bill changes. Then they will need to be reassessed to see if they fit inside the carbon budget.

    In some ways it actually might not even be pure opposition to road building (not that I'm claiming Mr Ryan is in favour of road building!) important road projects could instead be fighting it out with agricultural emissions for a slice of the carbon budget.


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 11,882 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cookiemunster


    I would speculate that he wants to hold off on projects reaching a critical point where they can be 'grandfathered in' to the climate bill changes. Then they will need to be reassessed to see if they fit inside the carbon budget.

    In some ways it actually might not even be pure opposition to road building (not that I'm claiming Mr Ryan is in favour of road building!) important road projects could instead be fighting it out with agricultural emissions for a slice of the carbon budget.
    By the time these roads get built (circa 2030) a large portion of our vehicle fleet will be zero emission and the sale of ICE vehicles will be banned. Increased carbon emissions because of these new road projects is a red herring.


  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,356 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    Tender out for ground investigations for this and the other N24 project

    https://irl.eu-supply.com/ctm/Supplier/PublicPurchase/185337/1/0


  • Registered Users Posts: 992 ✭✭✭riddlinrussell


    By the time these roads get built (circa 2030) a large portion of our vehicle fleet will be zero emission and the sale of ICE vehicles will be banned. Increased carbon emissions because of these new road projects is a red herring.

    Emissions from construction itself would be factored in to the carbon budget, as will the carbon from EV production and electricity to run them. ICE emissions are not going to be where the buck stops on carbon budgets...


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,470 ✭✭✭KrisW1001


    Deficient road design increases the energy use of vehicles travelling on those roads. Because of their lower variation in incline/decline and bends, driving on a motorway should actually save fuel compared to doing the same speed on a road with poorer geometry.

    I've never seen a proper study on this, but logically there will be a payback period where the sum of these tiny individual energy savings exceeds the big upfront construction emissions. Now, maybe that payback is 200 years, in which case it's hard to justify... but maybe it's 20 years. If it is, then it's very hard to not justify new builds.

    The increase in EVs, which do not necessarily require CO2 emissions to run but whose energy use is also much more sensitive to road geometry, makes the need for these kind of economic calculations more pressing.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,767 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    Emissions from construction itself would be factored in to the carbon budget, as will the carbon from EV production and electricity to run them. ICE emissions are not going to be where the buck stops on carbon budgets...

    I would have thought that carbon from EV production would be much the same as ICE vehicle protection, and electricity to run EVs will be a lot less carbon intensive than extracting, refining, transporting and ultimately burning the fuel used in ICEs. There are lots of things to consider for EVs in carbon budgets but most of them also exist, and in a dirtier form, for ICEs.


  • Registered Users Posts: 992 ✭✭✭riddlinrussell


    Pete_Cavan wrote: »
    I would have thought that carbon from EV production would be much the same as ICE vehicle protection, and electricity to run EVs will be a lot less carbon intensive than extracting, refining, transporting and ultimately burning the fuel used in ICEs. There are lots of things to consider for EVs in carbon budgets but most of them also exist, and in a dirtier form, for ICEs.

    Don't really want to get into the weeds on this, and specific carbon budgetary costs, the crux of my argument was that Ryan may be gearing up to pit road construction (and other carbon producing sectors) against each other for approval. And therefore he has an incentive to delay large but important projects so he can say things like "Well we need the M20 so Ag is going to have to take a hit in the carbon budget so it can be built, etc etc."

    I'm not opposed to the carbon budgets at all though, it provides a real incentive for carbon reduction measures so your projects can get funded.


  • Registered Users Posts: 315 ✭✭steeler j


    Local lobby group in Tipperay claim that going by from Cork to Limerick by Cahir will be only 9 minutes longer than going by the m20 . The m20 would be around 55 minutes and the m24 /m8 would be 1 hr and 20


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 4,974 Mod ✭✭✭✭spacetweek


    Lobby groups say a lot of things.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,084 ✭✭✭db


    steeler j wrote: »
    Local lobby group in Tipperay claim that going by from Cork to Limerick by Cahir will be only 9 minutes longer than going by the m20 . The m20 would be around 55 minutes and the m24 /m8 would be 1 hr and 20

    Where do you get the hour and 20 from? I do it through Mitchelstown now in less than that. Not that I'm in favour of the M24/M8 over the M20 but no need to be making things up.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,767 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    db wrote: »
    Where do you get the hour and 20 from? I do it through Mitchelstown now in less than that. Not that I'm in favour of the M24/M8 over the M20 but no need to be making things up.

    Its pretty clear where he/she is getting the hour and 20 from, going via Cahir using M8 and a hypothetical M24, it says it in the post!


  • Registered Users Posts: 315 ✭✭steeler j


    db wrote: »
    Where do you get the hour and 20 from? I do it through Mitchelstown now in less than that. Not that I'm in favour of the M24/M8 over the M20 but no need to be making things up.

    If it was a motorway ,it would be 138 km from Cork to Limerick city via the Cahir at 120 km ,that's what I'm preparing motorway to motorway ,I don't make things up


  • Registered Users Posts: 452 ✭✭Limerick74


    steeler j wrote: »
    If it was a motorway ,it would be 138 km from Cork to Limerick city via the Cahir at 120 km ,that's what I'm preparing motorway to motorway ,I don't make things up

    Is 120kph realistic for the whole journey? Would collect a few tickets if one tried that from Dunkettle into Kent Station or Ballysimon into Colbert station? That’s around 10km in total at much lower speeds, depending on time of journey.


  • Registered Users Posts: 315 ✭✭steeler j


    Limerick74 wrote: »
    Is 120kph realistic for the whole journey? Would collect a few tickets if one tried that from Dunkettle into Kent Station or Ballysimon into Colbert station? That’s around 10km in total at much lower speeds, depending on time of journey.

    I done dunkettle to ballysimon junction with m7 and from m7/m20 junction in Limerick to blackpool retail park . Too many variables when it would come to city traffic and not every would be going to the same point in the city just roughly where the motorways would start and end


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  • Registered Users Posts: 315 ✭✭steeler j


    Lots of potiticial support for the Cork to Limerick alternative route . I have done a little comparison on the routes on Thursday and Friday.
    Proposed m20 54 mins
    Proposed m24/m8 1 hr 13 mins
    City centre to city centre using the same starting and end points in both city and for both roads
    Proposed m20 1 hr 7 mins
    Proposed m24/m8 1 hr 29 mins
    I done the city centre to city centre at 12.30 and .5.30 on both days and took an average . The times will vary for weekend traffic ,post covid-19 and post dunkettle


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 11,882 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cookiemunster


    Local political support means diddly squat. The decision has already been made by the designers to route along the M20 corridor and that has government support. 6 of the 7 route options had a link to the M8 and all were rejected for not meeting the current needs of the M20. The discussion of routing Cork Limerick traffic along the N24 is pointless because it's never going to happen.


  • Registered Users Posts: 315 ✭✭steeler j


    Local political support means diddly squat. The decision has already been made by the designers to route along the M20 corridor and that has government support. 6 of the 7 route options had a link to the M8 and all were rejected for not meeting the current needs of the M20. The discussion of routing Cork Limerick traffic along the N24 is pointless because it's never going to happen.
    Yes , everyone knows it won't happen and hopefully the Minister shuts down the idea during an upcoming meeting . We can hopefully soon get the options on the Limerick junction to cahir scheme


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,470 ✭✭✭KrisW1001


    The big fear to me is that this talk of an "M24" will stick in the minds of objectors, so that when the non-motorway N24 dual-carriageway moves to planning, it will be labelled as "driving a motorway through the Glen of Aherlow"...


  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,356 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    Three routes to be published in June. Final route in early 2022

    https://www.tipperarylive.ie/news/cahir/626626/tipperary-rural-residents-lives-left-on-hold.html


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 4,974 Mod ✭✭✭✭spacetweek


    Yikes, super-duper negative press coverage alert!


  • Registered Users Posts: 315 ✭✭steeler j


    Minister for transport has confirmed that the route options are to be made available on June 25 at 2 o clock


  • Registered Users Posts: 19 Tipp96


    Is the route to Cahir still in contention or is that gone now?


  • Registered Users Posts: 315 ✭✭steeler j


    Tipp96 wrote: »
    Is the route to Cahir still in contention or is that gone now?
    It seems to be gone since the government promised to prioritize the opening of the town section first . The problem was that local groups and some councilors were looking for a bypass and when this scheme was activated they felt it would take to long to do ,there was a few suggestions about doing similar schemes to Cahir or Cashel . It looks like everyone seems to be all on the 1 page now


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  • Registered Users Posts: 452 ✭✭Limerick74


    Public Consultation for Alternatives and Options for N24 Cahir to Limerick starts on Friday afternoon https://www.tippmidwestradio.com/2021/06/22/cahir-to-limerick-road-project-takes-a-step-forward/


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